Settle an argument please! - UK Law

JJ0063

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Hi guys,

Having a bit of a debate with a colleague regarding Police seizing a dashcam or its footage after an accident.

This is completely theoretical here:

Someone has an accident, dash cam films it.

Can the Police demand/seize the camera or its footage? For whatever reason.

I know they can seize a mobile telephone if they have reasonable suspicion that the accident was caused or contributed by someone using their telephone.. to me, how is this any different if the Police believe the camera holds evidence as to how the accident was caused?

Colleague disagrees and says the Police have no rights to demand the camera or the footage from the camera.


Thoughts?
 
This taken from Section 19 of PACE surely backs up my thoughts?



General power of seizure etc.

(1)The powers conferred by subsections (2), (3) and (4) below are exercisable by a constable who is lawfully on any premises.

(2)The constable may seize anything which is on the premises if he has reasonable grounds for believing—

(a)that it has been obtained in consequence of the commission of an offence; and

(b)that it is necessary to seize it in order to prevent it being concealed, lost, damaged, altered or destroyed.

(3)The constable may seize anything which is on the premises if he has reasonable grounds for believing—

(a)that it is evidence in relation to an offence which he is investigating or any other offence; and

(b)that it is necessary to seize it in order to prevent the evidence being concealed, lost, altered or destroyed.

(4)The constable may require any information which is [F1stored in any electronic form] and is accessible from the premises to be produced in a form in which it can be taken away and in which it is visible and legible [F2or from which it can readily be produced in a visible and legible form]if he has reasonable grounds for believing—

(a)that—

(i)it is evidence in relation to an offence which he is investigating or any other offence; or

(ii)it has been obtained in consequence of the commission of an offence; and

(b)that it is necessary to do so in order to prevent it being concealed, lost, tampered with or destroyed.

(5)The powers conferred by this section are in addition to any power otherwise conferred.

(6)No power of seizure conferred on a constable under any enactment (including an enactment contained in an Act passed after this Act) is to be taken to authorise the seizure of an item which the constable exercising the power has reasonable grounds for believing to be subject to legal privilege.
 
Not sure any of that applies if you are on a public road, but you can be quite sure that if the accident involves a death then they have a right to seize the entire car and everything in it for evidence purposes in some circumstances, I don't see any point in arguing about specific cases.
 
Hi Nigel

Absolutely agree with what you've said there, I already knew regarding fatalities that the Police can and will seize what they require.

What I am trying to establish is in your every day common RTC, Car A is driving along, they hit Car B - Dash cam has recorded it all. Can the Police then go to Car A and say "We're seizing your dashcam/footage from your dashcam as we believe it holds evidence as to what caused the accident"

Or, can Car A's owner say "No, you're not taking the footage, you've got no powers to do so"

I know that the Police can seize your mobile telephone if they have reason to believe it was a factor of what caused the accident.
 
In "your every day common RTC", the police are only interested in getting the traffic flowing again. It is up to you and your insurers to arrange compensation for whoever is entitled to it.
 
Its just evidence and no different from any other evidence...

Its not special just because its your dashcam !!!!!!!!!
 
Its just evidence and no different from any other evidence...

Its not special just because its your dashcam !!!!!!!!!

Exactly, so the Police can seize this, can they not?
 
In "your every day common RTC", the police are only interested in getting the traffic flowing again. It is up to you and your insurers to arrange compensation for whoever is entitled to it.

Of course they aren't, they have to take statements and gather evidence in case an offence has occurred.
 
In the UK and speaking from recent experience - I would advise all to make sure they contact the police before anyone else does.

They will ask for you on arrival and treat the other party with suspicion ...

I do remember an occasion when my g/f was walking the dog on a lead (colly) and 2 bulldogs came out of the front door of a house and ran across the road and attacked her dog... she managed to escape with the dog and got home stressed out and traumatised but 2 hours later there was a knock at the door...

The owner of the bulldogs had called the police because both had to attend the vets having been bitten and it was a costly experience for them..

The police were off hand and suggested her colly was the aggressor despite being on a lead and insisted we never walk the dog on that road again ...

the irony is she didn't call the police as she didn't want the other dogs to face the possibility of being put down for their attack !!

Always be the first to call ....
 
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum but I thought I'd offer my expertise in this area.

As mentioned by JJ0063 above Section 19 of PACE gives powers to an officer to seize anything on a premise if he has reason to believe it was obtained as a result of committing an offence OR if it is evidence in relation to AN OFFENCE.

Section 23 of PACE defines a premises as including vehicles.

This means that for your run of the mill RTC he cannot seize it but for say dangerous driving or drink driving that you captured then we may seize it.

However, might I recommend that you don't argue, do cooperate, do offer to produce the evidence yourself and provide a statement to back that up and finally remember that obstruction of an officer is an offence in itself.

You may have footage that backs up that little old lady who otherwise would just accept responsibility.

Hope that helps.

Scotty
 
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Nice to see an admission that you let personal judgement cloud your ability to treat all people the same and seem to be suggesting "old ladies" are the only weak in society in your opinion and judgement...:p


God help us :D:D:D:D:D:D
 
I think the OP was probably more interested in whether the police could seize his dashcam where there is evidence on it that could go against him and so does he have the right to refuse... ie. A car pulls out in front of you and so is their fault but the dashcam will show you're doing 35 in a 30 which could harm your defence/claim!
(In which case perhaps pulling the thing off and shoving it under the seat before any one knows you've got one is the protocol?!!)
 
In short, no. The police can seize anything in relation to the offence. Things like speeding though would be very hard to prove as our cams aren't certified so you could argue they are wrong.

In terms of hiding it... Personal preference
 
I'm very knowledge in U.S. Law....and a lot of search and seizure law is similar and based on the same principle. An accident results in a police investigation, no matter how minor. Evidence in any investigation can be seized...you may still own it but it can be seized from what I've read in the above posted legal code. The gps in dash cams is sometimes hit and miss, it's easy enough to dispute in court or otherwise but there are other methods of determining speed easily available...including the cars OBD. Just never be tempted to alter the video or trim it to cut out the speed display as its too easy to show that the video has been edited. A couple of miles over may have nothing to do with the accident...but edit it and get caught and you have no credibility from that point...the video won't be allowed as evidence, you appear dishonest and your back to square one. If your worried...turn the gps off. Having said all this and reading the posted law above that appears to confirm it...there is always someone who will claim to know the law such as your friends...whether or not they are right or wrong. You could email the Police attorney of your local department and generally they will give you the correct answer and the legal code to back it up at no cost.
 
I'm very knowledge in U.S. Law....and a lot of search and seizure law is similar and based on the same principle. An accident results in a police investigation, no matter how minor...
Much of what you have written is not true in the UK, the police have no interest in minor accidents and even if they do attend, it is often only to ensure that traffic can continue flowing safely while the mess is sorted out. The following quote from a UK police website makes it clear that "If the police attend the scene it does not guarantee that a formal police report will be made".

Q1 : I have been involved in a collision do I have to report it to the police?

If damage was caused, or if anybody was injured, to comply with the law all drivers must stop and exchange names, addresses, registration numbers and vehicle owner details. Information regarding insurance must also be given if someone has been injured. If details are not exchanged, you must report the collision to police as soon as practicable and in any event, within 24 hours.

Q2 : Do the police attend every collision?

No. The police do not routinely attend collisions which do not involve injury. They will only attend those non injury collisions where there is a clear, specific purpose for doing so. If police do not attend there will be no further details recorded about your collision, and no police investigation will take place. Contact your insurers to progress a claim.

Q3 : What happens if the police attend a collision?

The nature and seriousness of the collision will determine the level of police involvement. If the police attend the scene it does not guarantee that a formal police report will be made. It may not be necessary for an official record to be created. The police may attend to protect the scene of a collision and make sure no further collisions occur. They will ensure that anyone injured gets prompt treatment and assist the flow of traffic. Police may also arrange for the recovery of vehicles where appropriate.
http://www.dorset.police.uk/default.aspx?page=3692#Q1

Also, if you choose to edit the video and cover up the gps speed before submitting evidence then the evidence is still valid evidence and should still be accepted. Even if you provide the raw footage the court still needs to consider the possibility that it is fake, editing to cover things up or enhance the brightness of important details doesn't make a lot of difference. Obviously providing a copy to the police at the scene removes any suspicion of editing and makes it more valuable as evidence, although if nobody was injured then they would probably not be doing an investigation so would not accept your evidence. If you were going 10mph over the speed limit at the time then it does not automatically make the accident your fault or mean that the police will use the evidence against you, 60 mph over the speed limit is a different matter.
 
In US courts any evidence that has been tampered with/altered will not stand. I agree that a few miles an hour over the posted speed limit will not generally make a difference in who is at fault but the mere fact that someone alters the video to cover up or remove the speed certainly muddies the legal waters and credibility goes out the window. I imagine that if you submitted an altered video in court in the UK and it was made known that it would not be allowed to be presented....though I'm not a UK atty. My point is....don't try to hide anything...submit as is or disable the gps.
I can easily prove that the gps on dash cams are not accurate and may not produce accurate speed depiction...so I wouldn't worry too much about editing it out. On the flip side...if the speed display was on and I wanted to get it thrown out, I could also argue that due to the inherent inaccuracies of dash cam gps that the speed should be blurred or edited out so as not to improperly influence a jury.
Insurance companies are a different story!
I did speak out of turn though when saying all accidents result in an investigation in the U.S....even here it's dependent upon the municipality, some are investigated and some are not, depending on local/state laws, police policies and ordinances, damages, injuries, etc. I should have said generally!
Basically...having your speed displayed can sometimes help....or hamper. Tough decision, either way, choose Option A and you'll likely need option B when the time comes.
 
I think there is a universal moral here... If you cooperate with the police and just offer the footage you won't risk your cam being seized.

If its not needed then you'll be told and thanked for your assistance.

OP, I hope we've been of some help in you winning your debate
 
In my, ongoing, case, the police attended (just happened to be passing so I flagged them down with some degree of urgency ). They were only interested in taking details so they could check the legality of the vehicles - also, I never once mentioned a camera (even though, in this instance, I was using my G1W) they didn't spot it - if they did, they didn't mention it.
 
In my, ongoing, case, the police attended (just happened to be passing so I flagged them down with some degree of urgency ). They were only interested in taking details so they could check the legality of the vehicles - also, I never once mentioned a camera (even though, in this instance, I was using my G1W) they didn't spot it - if they did, they didn't mention it.
ANPR checks the legality of the vehicles so it's not normally worth them bothering with a manual check, they were probably more interested in checking that the drivers actually had valid insurance since ANPR can only check the registered owner has insurance, this is a situation they can check the actual drivers, from both vehicles and have a reasonable chance of scoring!
 
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