2021 Climate Change

[Dashmellow]

Hybrid vehicles were last decade, they are not acceptable this decade, a 10-15% saving is not compatible with the UN Climate Change agenda. Whoever decided to build that has not been listening!

Now if it was partnered by a fuel cell locomotive running on Hydrogen or Ammonia instead of the diesel then it would have a use in the energy recovery role, although the battery capacity seems excessive for regenerative braking and could probably be built into the fuel cell locomotive itself more effectively.

You are apparently not the one who is listening or paying attention! This locomotive is NOT a hybrid. It is a 4,400 HP engine running exclusively on lithium-ion batteries. You seem to be confused by the term "hybrid consist". You also don't seem to understand that a diesel powered locomotive is actually a "series hybrid" in that it runs on electricity generated by its diesel engines, so essentially all of these diesel powered machines are already "hydrids". So, you've got it backwards, Nigel. The FLXdrive eliminates the need for a fossil fuel engine entirely and powers its electric motors directly, so it is the opposite of a hybrid!

Another thing you don't seem to understand is how heavy haul freight railways function in the US. The United States is a vast nation and it has the longest railway network in the world at 250,000km. More freight tonnage is moved by Class 1 rail freight in the US than all tractor trailer freight shipping combined. Long distance heavy haul rail freight is very different than in a small country like the UK or even all of the EU. Many of these heavy haul freight trains are massive and they travel across vast distances. And these rail networks are even more vast across all of North America as they connect all of Canada and Mexico. And this doesn't even include light rail and passenger rail networks although there is some overlap in certain locations.

These trains, hauling loads of thousands and thousands of tons, require more than a single locomotive. Often there will be at least three full size engines of up to 6,000 HP each pulling these loads and occasionally more. In this case, the FLXdrive lihium powered locomotive is simply being tested as one of the locomotive components working in concert with traditional diesel engines, thus the term "hybrid consist".

Wabtec, the designer and manufacturer of the FLXdrive produces the most advanced heavy haul locomotives in the world. It is not a surprise that a company like this would build the first lithium powered heavy haul machine the world has yet seen. Obviously, they feel it is a worthwhile pursuit and we can presume they know a thing or two about the heavy haul rail freight business or they wouldn't be investing in this.

The fact that a single lithium powered locomotive used in hybrid consist in each train could lower carbon emissions and other pollutants, eliminate costly diesel engine maintenance and repair along with the use of fossil fuels and engine lubricants, dramatically increase reliability and uptime, uses regenerative braking to recharge its cells and lower costs by a half a billion dollars seems a worthy goal.

Hmmm, lower operational costs and lower carbon emissions.

Of course, this is an interesting prototype proof-of-concept pilot project with a single locomotive that is just now undergoing performance testing. But as usual, you think you know better than the actual experts as you dismiss this new technology out of hand!

There simply doesn't seem to be a topic under the sun where you don't declare yourself an expert authority and so here yet again we get to witness your arrogant punditry before the pilot project is even complete or the data is analyzed. The more you do this the more laughable it becomes.

​

 

[Nigel]

You are apparently not the one who is listening or paying attention! This locomotive is NOT a hybrid. It is a 4,400 HP engine running exclusively on lithium-ion batteries.

30-40 minute battery life.
350 miles to cover.
Regenerative braking.
10% fuel reduction.

It still needs the diesel locos if it is going to reach the destination!
It is working like a plug-in hybrid car.

Wabtec engineering vice president Alan Hamilton said: “The FLXdrive is the world’s first 100% heavy-haul battery-electric locomotive that optimises the total energy utilization of the entire locomotive consist.

“This technology works in a manner very similar to how electric vehicles use regenerative braking. It’s a significant step forward for the rail industry and will change the course for even cleaner, more energy-efficient transport.”

 

[Dashmellow]

30-40 minute battery life.
350 miles to cover.
Regenerative braking.
10% fuel reduction.

It still needs the diesel locos if it is going to reach the destination!
It is working like a plug-in hybrid car.

They claim up to 15% actually. But these are early days and this is merely a proof-of-concept project, Nigel.

These are the kind of dismissive amateur internet pundit arguments we used to hear about Elon Musk's early efforts with the Tesla automobile. Lack of efficiency and energy density, not practical, poor range, not enough charging infrastructure, too expensive, too difficult to manufacture etc., etc., etc. Everyone was betting against him. People also said it was impractical to run thousands of 18650 cells to run a car. Now Tesla has Giga factories where they produce their own proprietary, highly efficient 21700 and 4680 cells that have exceeded all previous performance, capacity, range and safety expectations and are still seeing improvements.

Investors made a sport out of shorting Tesla stock but the joke was on them as Tesla is now the most valuable automobile company on the planet! And only a few weeks ago Tesla became one of the components of the S&P 500 index, the most widely tracked broad stock-market benchmark as the sixth largest member and the largest company ever to be added at introduction.

The same thing happened with SpaceX. Musk stated his goals of building reusable rocket boosters that would power themselves back to earth and land on the same pads where they were launched from just like we all saw in 1950's science fiction films and everyone said he was crazy and that it was impractical and would never work. Now he's put astronauts in space in state of the art capsules that are operated in a shirt sleeve environment with touch screen panels and iPads.

These are early days.......

 

[SawMaster]

I helped build a factory for WABCO who were/are a part of the larger Wabtec corporation. "WABCO" stands for "Westinghouse Air Brake Corporation" and were the largest supplier of brakes for trains back then and perhaps even now..

As a child I did spend some years out west where the loooooong freight trains run. I've seen 3 locos up front, 2 more partway back, 2 more further back, and 2 more toward the end with a consist well over a mile long running across the plains. Huge trains over huge distances which were going to have to cross the Rockies, mountains which are quite steep and high, with few routes across that can accommodate friction-driven trains. It's going to be a very long time before there is on-board battery technology in place which could power those long freight-liners, and the cost of building a catenary for them overhead would be tremendous and there would be problems with electric transmission losses over the distances plus the lack of electric generating capacity in those remote areas. Snowfall in the Rockies can be massive making it nearly impossible to do any work on overhead catenarys in the winter, And then there are the tunnels in the Rockies, may of which are older and not so tall as to be able to wire overhead; modifying them would again entail a tremendous cost. We will probably have landed a man on Mars before those lines go electric. And any on-board fuels would have to be on a cost parity with diesel to make it economically viable at all. There's several other places in the world where the problems of distance and remoteness give similar issues to the railroads there. Something better will come in time, but not soon at all, and until that remote date arrives these trains are almost certainly going to remain diesel-powered.

Which brings another problem- it everything else goes electric then those locos aren't usable on these lines and vece-versa, so now you've got two incompatible fleets each needing their own logistics chain and with that comes extra costs. So for any alternatives to work well, they need to work everywhere. And the costs have to be tabulated across the entire life-cycle from building to recycling/disposal along with all the necessary related parts in between too. The problem was long in building so it's very likely to be long in solving too. Even as far along as we are with technology we're really quite a way from where we'd like to be and it's going to be a tough journey to get there. Gotta start somewhere though, and now is as good a time as any

Phil

 

[Dashmellow]

I helped build a factory for WABCO who were/are a part of the larger Wabtec corporation. "WABCO" stands for "Westinghouse Air Brake Corporation" and were the largest supplier of brakes for trains back then and perhaps even now..

As a child I did spend some years out west where the loooooong freight trains run. I've seen 3 locos up front, 2 more partway back, 2 more further back, and 2 more toward the end with a consist well over a mile long running across the plains. Huge trains over huge distances which were going to have to cross the Rockies, mountains which are quite steep and high, with few routes across that can accommodate friction-driven trains. It's going to be a very long time before there is on-board battery technology in place which could power those long freight-liners, and the cost of building a catenary for them overhead would be tremendous and there would be problems with electric transmission losses over the distances plus the lack of electric generating capacity in those remote areas. Snowfall in the Rockies can be massive making it nearly impossible to do any work on overhead catenarys in the winter, And then there are the tunnels in the Rockies, may of which are older and not so tall as to be able to wire overhead; modifying them would again entail a tremendous cost. We will probably have landed a man on Mars before those lines go electric. And any on-board fuels would have to be on a cost parity with diesel to make it economically viable at all. There's several other places in the world where the problems of distance and remoteness give similar issues to the railroads there. Something better will come in time, but not soon at all, and until that remote date arrives these trains are almost certainly going to remain diesel-powered.

Which brings another problem- it everything else goes electric then those locos aren't usable on these lines and vece-versa, so now you've got two incompatible fleets each needing their own logistics chain and with that comes extra costs. So for any alternatives to work well, they need to work everywhere. And the costs have to be tabulated across the entire life-cycle from building to recycling/disposal along with all the necessary related parts in between too. The problem was long in building so it's very likely to be long in solving too. Even as far along as we are with technology we're really quite a way from where we'd like to be and it's going to be a tough journey to get there. Gotta start somewhere though, and now is as good a time as any

Phil

As time goes on Phil, you are beginning to sound like Nigel!

 

[kamkar]

I have no idea if you can run MU with electric locos on a overhead power line, never seen that.
But i assume it can be done.
My RC controller for my G scale trains, i can control 6 locomotives pulling the same train, and they can be different models as i can also adjust the "get going" point for each individual train, so that a train / trains in the middle of the "stack" are not pushing on the freight cars and locos ahead of it.

Pulling a record long G scale train ( which i think are about 200 cars long ) it do suck up some Amps even if the care are empty and fairly light cars made mainly in plastic, if you run track power you better have some good power supplies attached to your rails.
My 2-6-6-2 Baldwin have 2 motors, and the first 6 Kg it have to pull are just its own weight.

O 200 cars,,,,,,, thats just 1 loco ( big boy ) pulling that.

 

[Nigel]

And then there are the tunnels in the Rockies, may of which are older and not so tall as to be able to wire overhead; modifying them would again entail a tremendous cost.

That is where a battery is useful, you can end the overhead wire before entering the tunnel and restart it after, then use battery power through the gap, reduces the cost of electrification considerably and only needs a small battery because there are plenty of opportunities to recharge it. Transmission distance isn't normally going to be an issue either since there will normally be local power sources along the line, and you can always add some high voltage cables to take power to remote locations efficiently. The big problem with lines like over the rockies is that there is unlikely to be enough traffic to repay the investment.

Which brings another problem- it everything else goes electric then those locos aren't usable on these lines and vece-versa,

That is not a problem here, our current locos have overhead pickups and diesel generators and are designed for the diesel generators to be replaced by fuel cells when available. They can run with wires and without, although going into London city with a diesel engine results in a heavy pollution penalty these days so wired running is used when available.

And any on-board fuels would have to be on a cost parity with diesel to make it economically viable at all.

Carbon taxes will ensure that fossil fuels will disappear over time, although of course they can't force the fuel price too high or businesses will become uneconomic. The main problem is not in the trains or track, but in generating suitable fuels at reasonable cost. Remember that the next generation offshore wind turbines will provide the cheapest grid power we have ever had, and that electrical power can be turned into liquid fuel with acceptable efficiency using current technology, so the real problem is that we do not currently have enough wind turbines or electrolysers; if we did have enough then we would have lots of cheap fuel suitable for all railways.

Offshore wind farms will generate enough electricity to power every home in the UK within a decade, Boris Johnson has pledged.

That leaves plenty of clean power from onshore wind, solar, nuclear, biofuel, hydro, etc. to power transport and a lot else!

The USA under Trump can still count its offshore wind turbines without needing to use thumbs, but that can change, if you can get rid of Trump! Listening to our news this morning, instead of starting off with covid as normal, it started with the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbour and comparing the seriousness of that to yesterday's bombing, violence and deaths at Trump's Whitehouse!

 

[kamkar]

Our new Siemens trains also come in a hybrid version that also have a diesel engine, but as anyone know it is always best to burn every bridge behind you

 

[Nigel]

Racing wind powered flying machines in a land with no virus!

 

[kamkar]

Brandishing swords like that, the not uncommon extremely close racing would be even more dangerous.

 

[Nigel]

Brandishing swords like that, the not uncommon extremely close racing would be even more dangerous.

I'm hoping the wind will get up and we will get some collisions!
These 10 Knot winds are too slow, even if they did get up to 80Km/h using them.

 

[SawMaster]

Video not available in the US

Phil

 

[Nigel]

Video not available in the US

Phil

Maybe you have it on pay TV instead of Youtube?

In case you can't see anything, it is the qualifying rounds of The America's Cup, and so far the British have won every race!
As for the virus, in the post race interviews they were handing the microphone around, no virus precautions at all!

 

[kamkar]

Is that photo the Americans making a "wheelie" which in boats must be a rudderie

 

[Nigel]

Is that photo the Americans making a "wheelie" which in boats must be a rudderie

Not sure what was happening, I suspect a flight computer problem, it doesn't look a comfortable ride!

Starting to feel sorry for the USA team, today they had 2 races, first against the Italians when they failed to finish within the time limit, so lost, and then against the British where they lost by 5 minutes, the British were flying circles around them:

Stronger winds forecast for tomorrow...

 

[kamkar]

Yeah must suck when it is named Americas cup, and you are not even a contender.

Maybe it is the Airbus on the sail that jinxx them, shouldent it have been Boeing.

 

[kamkar]

Hell Denmark even held the blue ribbon with catlink IV in 1998, making the crossing in 2 days 20 hours and 9 minutes. for a AVG speed of +41 knots.
Unsure if we still have that record.

I have even worked on that ferry, Danish special forces use to train jumping off them at full speed,,,,,,, better hold damn good on your gun and flippers.

BTW Danish / Aussie crew on that crossing ( boat made in AU )

 

[Nigel]

Unsure if we still have that record.

Seems to be held by a Catlink V, I guess this is your boat?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSC_Fjord_Cat

I have even worked on that ferry, Danish special forces use to train jumping off them at full speed

That is going to hurt!

Maybe it is the Airbus on the sail that jinxx them, shouldent it have been Boeing.

Yes, I had noticed that, doesn't seem quite right!

Yeah must suck when it is named Americas cup, and you are not even a contender.

Even worse when they seemed quite confident a couple of days ago!

I think they failed to understand that Ineos is a Formula 1 team and were using the practice races to gather data and find all the limits, they were not trying to win because points in those races were worth less than the data!

 

[kamkar]

That is going to hurt

Yeeah, they did jump off to the side, from the small mourning platform on the back just above the jet drives, i think if you jumped out into the actual jet drive output, your back would be snapped like a twig.
The marine guard picked them up in their little cutter.

I dont think it was something they did for fun, probably as part of getting the badge, and usually on a 20 man course of special forces here just 2 or 3 make the cut.
Have to be otherwise SAS and the like dont want to play war games with us, cuz the big boys do not play with the little guys, they play with other big boys.

( English subs )

 

[Nigel]

Yeah must suck when it is named Americas cup, and you are not even a contender.

Maybe it is the Airbus on the sail that jinxx them, shouldent it have been Boeing.

The Americans went flying today, then started to sink, so lost again:

There is now a big hole in the bottom of their boat.

America's Cup: American Magic capsizes as INEOS Team UK remains unbeaten

Dean Barker's boat flips into the air and tips over after British boat puts one foil in the Prada Cup final.

www.stuff.co.nz