A discussion about Pier28 on Reddit

Status
Not open for further replies.

Drivewatch

Member
Retailer
Joined
Jul 5, 2015
Messages
31
Reaction score
9
Country
United States
I hate to post here, but I've exhausted all other avenues. A word of warning for any Dashcamtalk forum members who frequent Reddit's dash cam subreddit for advice: Pier28 (a vendor) moderates that forum. In fact, our posts have been deleted and blocked. Please be aware of this behavior from a supposedly trusted vendor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That particular subreddit has 4 different moderators. I hope you have something besides suspicions to support this claim.
 
That particular subreddit has 4 different moderators. I hope you have something besides suspicions to support this claim.
We do - we contacted the other moderators of the forum and two of them confirmed Pier28 was behind silencing us.
 
Unfortunately Dashcamtalk is not the place for retailers to bash other retailers. I have no interest in moderating / arbitrating who is right or wrong in these situations.
 
Unfortunately Dashcamtalk is not the place for retailers to bash other retailers. I have no interest in moderating / arbitrating who is right or wrong in these situations.
Understood. Here is communication from the moderators confirming that Pier28 was responsible. I want this to be known to this community as a whole.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Myself I’ve never had any dealings with Pier28, so I can’t comment on anything about him or his service (or lack of it)

What I will say though is, the spoken word never sounds like the written word when posted on forums, so to use the words “A warning about Pier28 on Reddie” is a bit like me saying “A warning about the river Nene in the UK” scary but meaningless to anyone but the few who know the river, and even then, if you knew the river you’d know. theres nothing to worry about it

You might have an issue with Pier28, but to use the word(s) “A warning” is a bit strong, all you have is an un settled issue with him and on another forum, why warn us you have an issue with him, by all means tell us the issue, but to warn us to what? not communicate with him on here, not to buy anything from him, not to mention his name ever again or he’ll come looking for us?

All I know of him is his contributions on this forum and thats more than good enough for me (and maybe a few others too), the thing is it is so very easy to make a mountain out of a mole hill nowadays out of nothing and let 1000’s of people know your opinions

Speaking only for myself here, I don’t know or want to know your issues with him, but to me your title came across as a warning to keep away from him, IMHO
 
mollydog, I understand where you're coming from. Here are the facts:
  • I launched Drivewatch last year to provide quality dash cams
  • We sourced an excellent product, our Drivewatch 380G, from a manufacturer in China, and stepped on Pier28's toes by offering basically an identical product, with US based support, for less money. Dashcamtalk confirms this here.
  • In a retaliatory manner, Pier28 banned us from the Reddit community, where all dash cams are discussed. We've participated in that community on discussions regarding action cameras, etc - not just advertising ourselves.
    • Pier28 is a moderator of that community, and I feel that it's wholly inappropriate for Pier28 to act as a moderator there and also be a camera retailer. They can and have abused the powers that come with being a community moderator to stifle a competitor.
    • The Dashcamtalk community, as well as the Reddit community view Pier28 as a trusted reseller, and their actions on Reddit are contrary to that trust.
I'd love for Pier28 to respond here and explain their actions; I've reached out to the moderators of that forum (which include Pier28) and have been met with silence over the past several weeks.
 
Thanks for the fair and impartial decision DashCamMan

I was waiting to see what action would be taken before commenting on this thread. I've been a member here since 2013. I turned a hobby into a business after meeting new friends here and forming new business relationships over a long period of time.. I remember being a bit aggressive in my early days once turning retailer, (too spammy) but have since learned the balanced fair way to comment and post in public. (try not to bash products directly yourself, and never post direct links for sale) You have to walk a fine line as a retailer if you want to remain helpful answering questions in a fair way. I think I've finally found the groove after several years of trial and error, the key is to bite your tongue when needed and think twice before posting certain things.

Ok, now on to this unfortunate public retailer vs retailer bashing.

If Drivewatch is going to continue acting like a victim and smearing Pier28 here, reddit and on twitter it's time I educate this community as a whole as well.

It's true Pier28inc is a moderator on http://reddit.com/r/Dashcam
Pier28inc always remains fair with universal balanced dashcam help giving suggestions as needed, and can play nice with others no problem.

It's not true that Drivewatch is currently banned because of Pier28inc doing anything unwarranted, nor implementing the actual final "permanent" ban 14 days ago. There was a Ban, Unban, and final Ban
FgpfoSk.png

The ban was the result of multiple reasons explained below over the course of several months. (mostly SPAM, with enough other history to add up to the perma-ban)

cthuluburger is one of the mods, and he put in place the final permanent ban 14 days ago.
The cthuluburger conversation linked to above (edit: link was removed by moderator) was before cthuluburger was educated on everything below.

I had sent a long detailed message to cthuluburger explaining the reasoning behind the ban. I also let him know I discussed everything with theproftw
(the other mod)

Part of the chat....... (there were 3 points which I'll break down below)

vy0jEqC.png



1) drivewatch was being listed, described and branded as Street Guardian.

One day I went to check our Pier28 Amazon listings as I always do, and saw Drivewatch being sold against Street Guardian on our SAME product page we created.
When I complained to Amazon they said we needed to buy one for proof so we did.
As you can see from the photo below it's generic China domestic Matego. (Spytec sells it cheaper) It's not Street Guardian, different package, different firmware, missing menu settings features, different. (CPL doesn't fit, generic thin wire charger, missing settings, KPH only, no memory card, no bitrate selection, no deluxe accessories, etc) If it's the same quality why is there only a short 3 month warranty?
After showing Amazon the proof and trademark, the listing was removed. We then received a nasty phone call from Jan threatening legal action saying he did nothing wrong. It's unethical to ride someone else's coat tails trying to make a quick buck with these tactics. It's also not the best way to make new friends in the dashcam industry.
ky08WPr.png


2) Fake reviews on Amazon are unethical and dishonest.

Look at some of these non-Verified Amazon drivewatch reviews.

What customer would say "Take care, and benefit from the Drivewatch"? and "Drivewatch redefines all dashcams" sounds pretty corny me.

ei4Cxq2.png

DARVIN is Drivewatch. (reviewing your own product is unethical/unfair)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A2W3V1GX6SL881/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp?ie=UTF8

Around this time there were over 25 fake reviews, but they have since been trimmed down to just a few.
This is the same trick by others: https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threads/are-amazon-reviews-trustworthy.10460/

wMSep4n.png

3) As a seller, Posting direct links to the same seller's Amazon product page is SPAM both on Reddit and on DashCamTalk. (big no no)

Drivewatch posted direct SPAM links to Amazon product at least 38 times over several months. Mods were marking / removing drivewatch posts as SPAM as they were posted for the past several months several times per week. It's fine to talk about products, just don't list direct links to one's own Amazon listings.
Small Example:
ZCtmtAD.png


More)


Unethical? I'm not the one spamming Reddit with direct links to Amazon products
We're not the ones posting fake reviews on Amazon.
We're not the ones attempting to hijack amazon listings with fake Street Guardian products.

PFbK0em.png


This whole thing is a huge waste of time, but Pier28 isn't going to just sit here and read this.

Now Drivewatch is posting as another Reddit user. (against the ban rules = shadowban)
XW2bHP7.png
 
Last edited:
Thanks for responding, Pier28. I'm glad that you are finally responding, even though we have reached out to you via the Reddit mod mail for weeks now with no response. It's also interesting that you are posting internal conversations from Reddit, which I was told was not allowed here. Anyway - I'm going to try to respond to you line by line here.

1) You are being selective with your screenshots about when we were banned. Pier28 was the instigator of the ban. You provided no warning, no information, and no feedback to us before dropping the hammer. You originally banned us 29 days ago, while providing no information or warning. We had zero communication from you or any of the other moderators.

Screen Shot 2016-01-03 at 12.39.23 AM.png

2) We originally posted our own Drivewatch 380G listing as a test, not advertising or intending for anyone to purchase it back in May - we weren't quite ready to launch yet. We didn't advertise it, and it was my understanding that the listing was inactive. When you made a purchase, we learned that Amazon would penalize us for cancelling your order, so we went ahead and fulfilled it. We learned the rules from Amazon, which dictated that we weren't allowed to use your competitor name in our advertising title, even though we sell basically an identical product. It was our mistake, we corrected it immediately. I don't quite remember the phone call I had with you the same way that you are describing it - it was more questioning how you reported an issue with our product before you had even received it. We have the USPS tracking that is proof of this, and when we reached out to Amazon to let them know, they agreed and reversed the action that was taken against us because of this. You are also factually incorrect in stating that we were being sold on your listing. If you look at image you posted, you'll see that our ASIN B00XT3Do94 (stock number) is listed. If you go type that in Amazon right now, you'll end up on our Amazon product page, not yours. This wasn't listed under your listing.

3) We have never paid for Amazon reviews. Never. Not once. I don't appreciate the insinuation - anyone can post a review on Amazon. In fact, I've reached out to Amazon asking them to remove reviews like what you're describing. As a fellow Amazon seller, I'm sure you know that contacting Amazon Seller Support can be like sending an email into a black hole. I'm not sure where you got the idea that "DARVIN" is Drivewatch - it isn't and has never been. This is a false accusation.

4) Nowhere on the subreddit is it stated that a vendor isn't allowed to link to their own product. If you actually read the threads that you linked to, you can see that we responded to users that inquired about dashcams that meet specific requirements, answered questions about our products, and even took care of some customer service issues - as shown in your above screenshot! Go take a look at your own post history - you repeatedly mention StreetGuardian products, with an Amazon link to your own product on the sidebar of the subreddit. For a period of time, that link was a hidden referral link, so somebody in charge of that subreddit was receiving money every time a purchase was made on Amazon. This wasn't disclosed until readers called the mods out on it. Do one set of rules apply to you, and another set apply to your competition? That doesn't sound right?

Screen Shot 2016-01-03 at 12.31.15 AM.png

I'm happy to continue answering questions about this, but don't insinuate that we are unethical. The facts are clear here - Pier28 isn't happy about competition and is doing everything they can to stifle it.

Unethical? I'm not the one banning competitors from a supposedly open forum, while pretending to be impartial. And you're absolutely right that it's unfortunate that this had to be moved into a public forum. Had you responded to our inquiries, instead of ignoring us and hoping that we would go away, I wouldn't have posted here.
 
Last edited:
I'm theproftw, one of the mods on /r/dashcam,

Pier28Inc had nothing to do with the sidebar, he actually hasn't made a single edit on it (I will gladly provide proof from the logs), we took the sidebar directly from http://www.dashcamtalk.com's "The Best “Bang for your Buck” Dash Cams" list.
 
1) It was my understanding that when a post is flagged and then removed as SPAM some type of warning is given. This obviously is not the case. (I'm a new mod)
Yes, I banned you the first time as a result of the 3 strikes described in my last post, and waited a few months to do so. You already knew what you did wrong beyond the SPAM. I also knew you were already in discussions with cthuluburger and theproftw after the first ban. It was safe to assume you learned about the over spamming problem of drivewatch Amazon links. If cthuluburger and theproftw asked me to give drivewatch a second chance, I'd have no problem with you posting/helping others. I asked them straight up, and they wanted to uphold the ban. The secondary final Ban vote was unanimous after full mod discussions about the 3 strikes.
FgpfoSk.png


2) It's unfortunate about your listing test products as branded as Street Guardian, maybe it was a learning curve misunderstanding then. You're right about Amazon being quite the beast to try and tame. We never received any explanation for the Street Guardian branding. You were very defensive on the phone when you called last summer.

3) That still doesn't explain why you had 25 suspicious non-verified Amazon reviews at one point. Most of them were eventually removed at some point. I guess I'm wrong about the DARVIN thing but it's very close to your last name, and the tone is a bit seller like.

4) (was just answered in the last post by ThePro)

5) I checked my post history, I don't have any direct links to Pier28 Amazon products. The sidebar was not my project, had zero input.

Again, I asked the other mods if they wanted to give you a second chance, both said a perma ban is justified.

I never once received a direct message or email from you. The last direct line of conversation I had was your very brief phone call to me last summer.
 
Last edited:
1) No warning was given whatsoever before we were banned. I'm not sure where you came up with "three strikes" - we received no warning whatsoever from your mod team. When /u/cthulhuburger provided us with an explanation (posting Amazon links) we immediately ceased. As mentioned previously, nowhere is this documented on the subreddit that it isn't allowed. Our username and posts also stated that we are the vendor of the product. This post was the first time that were notified that we weren't allowed to post Amazon links. You can confirm this quite easily by taking a look at our post history https://www.reddit.com/user/drivewatch/
Screen Shot 2016-01-03 at 1.11.52 AM.png

The statement that you never received any messages from us is false. You received several messages from us via modmail (which go to all moderators on the subreddit), and the mod team responded by simply "muting" instead of providing any assistance or insight.

Screen Shot 2016-01-03 at 1.16.01 AM.png

We're happy to play by whatever rules are in place - but don't say that we openly flaunted them, because that's patently false. We reached out several times, attempted to understand, and were stonewalled by your mod team.
 
It's common sense not to SPAM Reddit. If the other mods and I didn't think it was excessive along with the questionable business practices, you would get a third chance.


How's this? The following is now spelled out on the sidebar:

72SXHtI.png
 
Again, we're happy to play by the rules now that they're actually provided. I'm disappointed that you continue calling our business practices "questionable" - we provide a great dashcam at a fair price. Now that we know what the rules are, we're happy to continue abiding by them, as we continued to do so after we were finally notified 19 days ago -- weeks after the ban was originally placed.

You keep using the word "SPAM" - I can't disagree more. I'd suggest any of the Dashcamtalk users take a look at my posting history, along with the original posts that we commented on, and see if we're spamming or contributing to the community. I think most will agree that we have contributed, just as you have, and we'd love to continue.
 
I like Pier28 here, he's provided with us with his knowledge on the market, products etc
However anyone with moderating powers, should never have no commercial interests and should be for both Pier28 and DriveWatch .
As in example of JooVuu, their are here, they are active and helpful, but as it comes to inevitable business dealings with customers and other poster's- they are above all try to resolve everything amicably and do not start banning/reporting etc process, although they could, considering fanbase they have.

Personally, I have experience being on receiving end in trolling attacks and have really appreciated knowledgeable mods, but if one IS, or the other starts banns etc, he is not of right to be the PLAYER and the JUDGE.

I'd suggest you guys kiss and make up? And as for one willing to be better than other in "Trade names", once product is made available by manufacturet under different name, it is down to designer and manufacturer, not a retailer to fight over proprietory rights. Else, design new product, make better contract with manufacturer and in result MAYBE provide better value product to consumers.
But again- as retailers only, your wows over rights are nil.
 
I like Pier28 here, he's provided with us with his knowledge on the market, products etc
However anyone with moderating powers, should never have no commercial interests and should be for both Pier28 and DriveWatch .

Thank you BMbler - perfectly stated. And I agree that Pier28's contributions have been immense as a retailer to Dashcam's - for the price the SG9665GC that Pier28 and SG were so instrumental in popularizing here in the US is an excellent product.

As a fellow retailer, I only ask that Pier28 plays fair.
 
I like Pier28 here, he's provided with us with his knowledge on the market, products etc
However anyone with moderating powers, should never have no commercial interests and should be for both Pier28 and DriveWatch .

I agree, when it comes to banning other Reddit DashCam Retailers I'll remain neutral on the bans from now on.

It's up to cthuluburger and theproftw now as my new drivewatch /r/Dashcam ban vote is to abstain. Please contact them directly for the unbanning appeal. I'm always ready to play fair.
 
I agree, when it comes to banning other Reddit DashCam Retailers I'll remain neutral on the bans from now on.

It's up to cthuluburger and theproftw now as my new drivewatch /r/Dashcam ban vote is to abstain. Please contact them directly for the unbanning appeal. I'm always ready to play fair.

I don't think anyone can not agree that Pier28 is taking the high road here....good for you!
 
Unfortunately Dashcamtalk is not the place for retailers to bash other retailers. I have no interest in moderating / arbitrating who is right or wrong in these situations.


Then what,s all this above then :rolleyes::D:D:D:D

Cheers Drivewatch for reminding me to "play fair" in business and open the door for the guy after the contract I want... o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O:D
 
It seems you guys may have kissed and made up lol.
I will stick up for Pier28 as I've had many good dealings with him. The high level of customer service he provides is frankly ridiculous and I don't know how he gets any sleep. I'm in the UK and I can message him first thing in the morning and get a response from the US within minutes! He never fails to deliver and help time after time. @Drivewatch, whatever has unfortunately happened here has happened, but you can certainly learn alot from Pier28 in terms of customer service etc. Hopefully you can co-exist peacefully now coz at the end of the day the more people who have a dashcam, the better
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top