A139 3CH no 60 FPS on the front camera

euandrecampos

New Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
4
Reaction score
1
Location
Florianópolis
Country
Brazil
Unlike the official product announcement (currently changed without notice), the camera does not allow the option of recording at 60Fps on the front camera through adjustments via the app. Is that a problem with all of you?

186513634_10220368407221461_851454187899599047_n.jpg

Reference video
 

Nath

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
Messages
844
Reaction score
507
Country
Germany
Dash Cam
Triple A139-3CH, Dual Viofo A129Pro-2CH
The 1440p/60fps is possible only in 1CH and 2CH mode.

Now I've played the @BlackboxMyCar's video and that's interesting. I saw everywhere only the info I've mentioned. Now i wonder whether it's not meant like 1080p/60fps+1080p+1080p, since when he's saying that the 1080p/60fps pops-up. Even "by default the front camera records at 30fps" is a bit odd, I'm pretty sure that by default it's 1440/60fps/h264 (if there is a processing power room for that).
 
Last edited:

kamkar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Messages
30,939
Reaction score
17,362
Country
Denmark
Dash Cam
10 years, many dashcams
Yes documentation are a bit misleading, this is the same with all multi channel cameras, they do list 60 FPS, but thats generally on the front camera alone, and so should not be mentioned when we talk about a multi channel system, that most often can only do 30 / 30 FPS on the 2 cameras.

I have not tried to see if my A139 can do 60 FPS on the front camera but only in 1080p off the 1440p sensor, that might be a option, but i see no reason to run this sensor in anything but its native resolution, which i also think is what @euandrecampos also had plans of doing.
It might be possible to do 1080/60 + 1080/30 and maybe the last camera too 1080/30, but that would be silly.

Okay personally i also think 60FPS are silly anyway, but only as i have tested 60 FPS camera VS same camera in 30 FPS at the same time, and i found no compelling reason to use the 60 FPS mode.
Only + in my book of 60 FPS is you can slow idiots in traffic down 50%, but i did not find it any better in regard to for example plate capture.

I can not recall if the 60FPS option are there in the app only if the 2 other cameras are not connected, i have recorded 60 FPS footage with the front camera alone. ( no other camera connected )
 

Nath

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
Messages
844
Reaction score
507
Country
Germany
Dash Cam
Triple A139-3CH, Dual Viofo A129Pro-2CH
A139 is definitely able to do 1440p/60fps in 1CH and 2CH. There could be some benefits to higher framerate if Viofo didn't lock the maximum bitrate which effectively degrade IQ in case of 60fps.
 

SawMaster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
9,315
Reaction score
8,138
Location
SC
Country
United States
Dash Cam
Numerous and ever-changing
I seem to remember using 60fps with the front cam only in beta testing, but it's only 30fps with all cameras operating. I guess that could be made clearer in the specs, but it seems most of the good multi-channel systems 'downgrade' something with the front cam when additional came are used; lower fps, lower bitrate, lower resolution; etc.

In bright light 60fps seems to work well, but in low light 30fps seems to do better- this is with all cams, not just the A139. I think many or most knowledgeable users go with 30fps to avoid switching back and forth.

Phil
 

kamkar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Messages
30,939
Reaction score
17,362
Country
Denmark
Dash Cam
10 years, many dashcams
I dont think the camera logic take into account the FPS chosen, other than it of course dictate a slowest possible exposure time, so say there is "plenty" of light in a situation the camera go ( i need to use ISO 800 and 1:500 second exposure here to give good footage ), i think it will do that then regardless of it is set to 30 or 60 FPS.
In that case sure you have 2 X more frames within a actual time frame with the 60 FPS camera, but as they are exposed the same either way the 30 FPS camera should get that capture just as well unless that sweet spot are right in between 2 of its exposures where the 60 FPS camera would be there to snap a frame.
But from my testing with 2 similar cameras, it was extremely marginal if i should call the 60 FPS camera better at capturing a fleeting detail like a car plate.

So at least for car speeds i dont think it make any difference, but things might shift if things start to move a lot faster to where the camera are hitting the fastest exposure time and it no longer can go down in ISO to force itself down into a slower exposure CUZ then the picture become too dark.

I dont know,,,,,,,, 04:22 AM here and i think i better go to bed before i put larger things in my mouth i will not be able to eat :)
 

richx

Active Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
379
Reaction score
206
Country
Malaysia
Dash Cam
A129 Duo, A139, Mola N3, A119v2, B4K
60 fps ideally means the shutter speed never falls below 1/60s, while 30 fps means 1/30s. The potential for motion blur is higher the slower the shutter speed is. Granted, it'd be nice if we can have quality glass lens at F/0.5 :ROFLMAO: as to maximize the light coming in to the sensor, and such that the shutter speed can sustain 1/100s and faster to get sharp number plates when driving fast. But yeah, nobody wants to pay $1,000 for such a camera right?
 

jokiin

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
52,479
Reaction score
30,326
Location
Sydney, Australia ~ Shenzhen, China
Country
Australia
Dash Cam
Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
f/1.0 lenses are affordable and make for good gains in low light, the tradeoff though is they let in too much light in bright light situations, when you're making a device that needs to be used under the widest range of circumstances without manually adjusting anything you need to make some compromises to make it workable
 

helg

Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2018
Messages
89
Reaction score
49
Country
Germany
Dash Cam
M4+, miniONE, Mola N3, mini5
I seem to remember using 60fps with the front cam only in beta testing, but it's only 30fps with all cameras operating.
The most important parameter is the physical pixel rate of reading out the raw sensor data, and this is the only one that really counts.
You can easily create fake 4K@60 or 4K@50 videos by upscaling and subsampling (and a lot of manufacturers are doing that!).
The manufacturer should provide the real sensor information ( like "does 4K@60 with 10bit/12bit sampling, connected over MIPI/CSI/CSI-2").
 

SawMaster

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2015
Messages
9,315
Reaction score
8,138
Location
SC
Country
United States
Dash Cam
Numerous and ever-changing
@helg Most people (including me) would not understand the part after "does 4K@60dps" :rolleyes:

It would be nice to have all info accessible for those who want it, but nobody publishes that and I doubt they ever will. Dashcams are cheapish simple devices; those who are more heavily into filming or photography are generally appalled at what we get, but they understand it can't be had at the prices most dashcams sell for. And of course no manufacturer of anything wants their competition to know what they're doing, so the publication of such specs will have to come from hobbyists who figure it out themselves.

I would guess that you're in the 0.5% group of dascammers who have deep knowledge. Perhaps 2% of us have some deeper understand, naybe 5% have some understanding. Somewhere between 30% and 50% of dashcam users probably never even try anything other than the default vid settings, and whoever is left may go as far as trying modded FW done by someone else. So manufacturers and sellers will aim advertising and spec charts at the big group since that's where the most sales are at, while those of us wanting something more will have to ask and hope we get answers.

Phil
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
14,446
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1+G3ꞈꞈꞈꞈꞈ Viofo A139ꞈꞈꞈꞈꞈ Blueskysea B4K+B2K
The most important parameter is the physical pixel rate of reading out the raw sensor data, and this is the only one that really counts.
You can easily create fake 4K@60 or 4K@50 videos by upscaling and subsampling (and a lot of manufacturers are doing that!).
The manufacturer should provide the real sensor information ( like "does 4K@60 with 10bit/12bit sampling, connected over MIPI/CSI/CSI-2").
Given that this camera has 3 channels, there is no reason to think that the read out rate of the sensor is the limiting factor for recording FPS. Especially if the specifications are allowing for multi-frame HDR read out.
like "does 4K@60 with 10bit/12bit sampling, connected over MIPI/CSI/CSI-2"
I can assure you that this sensor doesn’t give 4K, since it is a 2K sensor, 10/12 bit for the sensor may depend on frame rate and for the processor may depend on number of channels … all too complicated to put in a simple specification.

How many customers are going to care what sort of data protocol it uses? Some will care if it is coax cable or not, but few know or care about CSI-2 vs MIPI!
 

richx

Active Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
379
Reaction score
206
Country
Malaysia
Dash Cam
A129 Duo, A139, Mola N3, A119v2, B4K
f/1.0 lenses are affordable and make for good gains in low light, the tradeoff though is they let in too much light in bright light situations, when you're making a device that needs to be used under the widest range of circumstances without manually adjusting anything you need to make some compromises to make it workable

I suppose putting an aperture disc on it would be way too complicated. Anyhow, it's just a wishlist. Maybe we'll arrive to the point like phone cameras (even cheap $100 phones are having 2-3 lenses now). One for day, one for night?
 

jokiin

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
52,479
Reaction score
30,326
Location
Sydney, Australia ~ Shenzhen, China
Country
Australia
Dash Cam
Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I suppose putting an aperture disc on it would be way too complicated. Anyhow, it's just a wishlist. Maybe we'll arrive to the point like phone cameras (even cheap $100 phones are having 2-3 lenses now). One for day, one for night?
Keep in mind phones don't have multiple lenses, they have multiple sensors and lenses, trying to squeeze that into an acceptable form factor using hardware appropriate for dashcam use is only part of the challenge, there's a lot more smarts in even low end mobile phones these days, not to say things can't change but I think we're still a long way off something like this in a dashcam
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
14,446
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1+G3ꞈꞈꞈꞈꞈ Viofo A139ꞈꞈꞈꞈꞈ Blueskysea B4K+B2K
Keep in mind phones don't have multiple lenses, they have multiple sensors and lenses,
So do many dashcams, but we prefer to use them for multiple views because that is more useful than multiple exposures.

If you make the CPL mandatory then F1.0 should be OK…
 

EGS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
983
Reaction score
830
Location
Texas
Country
United States
Dash Cam
Viofo A129 Pro Duo, A129 Plus (eMMC), T130, 70mai A800s
I suppose putting an aperture disc on it would be way too complicated. Anyhow, it's just a wishlist. Maybe we'll arrive to the point like phone cameras (even cheap $100 phones are having 2-3 lenses now). One for day, one for night?
Glasses Seinfeld GIF
 

Dashmellow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
16,143
Reaction score
17,045
Location
Uncanny Valley (●_●)
Country
United States
Dash Cam
Umpteen
If you make the CPL mandatory then F1.0 should be OK…

These wide aperture Starlight lenses work very well in low light but unfortunately they tend to have shallower depth of field than the typical M12 lenses most of us are familiar with in our dash cams.
 

Dashmellow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
16,143
Reaction score
17,045
Location
Uncanny Valley (●_●)
Country
United States
Dash Cam
Umpteen
Maybe we'll arrive to the point like phone cameras (even cheap $100 phones are having 2-3 lenses now). One for day, one for night?

There have been discussions on the forum going back to the early days of DCT about the possibility/desirability of having a dual lens dash cam optimized for both day and night capture. There are CCTV cameras that work like that. I happen to own one. I don't see any technical reason we can't have a dash cam that could do the same. Such a camera would be similar to a dual channel dash cam but with two lenses facing forward, perhaps with a different sensor and lens in each module.
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
14,446
Reaction score
7,372
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1+G3ꞈꞈꞈꞈꞈ Viofo A139ꞈꞈꞈꞈꞈ Blueskysea B4K+B2K
These wide aperture Starlight lenses work very well in low light but unfortunately they tend to have shallower depth of field than the typical M12 lenses most of us are familiar with in our dash cams.
Yes, they always will, you can't argue with the laws of physics, so F1.0 is only suitable for the smaller sensors.
 

Dashmellow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
16,143
Reaction score
17,045
Location
Uncanny Valley (●_●)
Country
United States
Dash Cam
Umpteen
Yes, they always will, you can't argue with the laws of physics, so F1.0 is only suitable for the smaller sensors.

A number of us did a lot of testing and experimenting with these fast wide aperture lenses and while they do work very well in low light, they were in certain ways sub-optimal for dash cams. In fact, the short depth of field made focusing difficult when you want to find the proper hyperfocal distance. (Edit: depended a bit on the focal length of the particular lens.) An ƒ/1.0 M12 lens would likely be ill advised for a general purpose consumer dash cam regardless of sensor size.
 
Last edited:

jokiin

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
52,479
Reaction score
30,326
Location
Sydney, Australia ~ Shenzhen, China
Country
Australia
Dash Cam
Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So do many dashcams
not facing in the same direction, that would change the design obviously

but we prefer to use them for multiple views because that is more useful than multiple exposures.
agree, people generally want to see as much as possible around the vehicle, everything in one direction less so

it's not like it's not doable, it's a limited market though and hard to make a business case for it I think
 
Top