Can you report people to police who break the law, if caught on dashcam?

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#61
There are a few ways to report road crime in the UK, but to be honest from experience, nothing is really done about it. Addmittedly my footage was used for a court case many years ago, but there is loads of paperwork and dare I say it, corruption, involved and it takes over a year to go to court. Recently, I have noticed that the saying used for many victims of crime is "there is not much that can be done". Even with dashcam evidence, not all Police forces will be interested in using it. It really does depend on the Police force and how they handle the incident. Unfortunately, the more criminals get away with, the more crime there is committed, which has been proven many times over in some areas of the country.
 

c4rc4m

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#62
There's a big difference between criminals, and drivers who break the odd traffic law. Do we really want a driving experience where cars become like the proposed automated self driving ones where we all travel at uniform distances and exactly the same speed in road trains, where no one actually drives but is simply paraded along the road in a robotic manner?

Is that also the kind of big brother society we'd want to live in anyway with dashcams if every time you made the slightest mistake or misjudgement, you get reported and prosecuted? Everyone makes misjudgements or mistakes at some point, no matter what they say.

It can be frustrating when you get idiots, especially the really dangerous ones who drive at high speeds weaving in and out of traffic or ignoring junctions, but those who drive like total idiots usually get caught anyway.
 

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#63
There are a few ways to report road crime in the UK, but to be honest from experience, nothing is really done about it. Addmittedly my footage was used for a court case many years ago, but there is loads of paperwork and dare I say it, corruption, involved and it takes over a year to go to court. Recently, I have noticed that the saying used for many victims of crime is "there is not much that can be done". Even with dashcam evidence, not all Police forces will be interested in using it. It really does depend on the Police force and how they handle the incident. Unfortunately, the more criminals get away with, the more crime there is committed, which has been proven many times over in some areas of the country.
In most of Wales now, you can just submit your video on the police website, they review the video and if appropriate send out a fixed penalty notice. Takes 10 minutes of your time and about the same amount of police time, courts don't get involved unless the fixed penalty is contested, which apparently almost never happens because it is normally obvious from the videos that the courts would significantly increase the penalty!

https://gosafesnap.wales/
 

Mozzie

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#64
Sounds like a good way to go in these times of good quality dash cams. It also makes it easier for the cops, they don't need to interpret inaccurate or false statements.

I don't know you would use the Signed item of the online form. Do they allow cursive fonts ?
 

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#65
I don't know you would use the Signed item of the online form. Do they allow cursive fonts ?
I think that legally, you sign it by ticking the check box. Your name and date are also required but they are not the signature and may be different to the name at the top of the form since people who can't write in English may get someone else to fill the form in and then sign it themselves, which could be quite a few people since there doesn't appear to be a Welsh language version of the form!
 

Module 79L

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#66
There's a big difference between criminals, and drivers who break the odd traffic law.

Is that also the kind of big brother society we'd want to live in anyway with dashcams if every time you made the slightest mistake or misjudgement, you get reported and prosecuted? Everyone makes misjudgements or mistakes at some point, no matter what they say.
There's also a big difference between drivers/riders who make the odd mistake or misjudgement and the ones who act intentionally, with complete disregard for safety, road rules and the other road users. I don't think anyone would waste time reporting the first, so if that type of "big brother" society would help punish the real wrongdoers, I'm all for it.
 

c4rc4m

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#67
There's also a big difference between drivers/riders who make the odd mistake or misjudgement and the ones who act intentionally, with complete disregard for safety, road rules and the other road users. I don't think anyone would waste time reporting the first, so if that type of "big brother" society would help punish the real wrongdoers, I'm all for it.
Well we'd have to agree to disagree on this one. Personally, I think a society where someone watches everything little thing you do then prosecutes you for the slightest infraction would be an Orwellian nightmare society. We all make mistakes at times and who's to say what's intentional or not, this side of someone street racing or driving drunk. Whilst there might be some justification for increased camera usage against serious crime, I think thousands of petty reports against drivers driving a little too fast or making a mistake would be a nightmare society.
 

c4rc4m

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#68
In most of Wales now, you can just submit your video on the police website, they review the video and if appropriate send out a fixed penalty notice. Takes 10 minutes of your time and about the same amount of police time, courts don't get involved unless the fixed penalty is contested, which apparently almost never happens because it is normally obvious from the videos that the courts would significantly increase the penalty!

https://gosafesnap.wales/
Glad I don't live in Wales. Also have to wonder about the legality of this. There's nothing to stop them sending out fixed penalty notices, but I have to wonder if the video evidence would stand up to legal requirements for admissibility should the penalty be challenged in a Court. Merely showing there's be an infringement is completely different to meeting evidencial rules on admissibility. I don't know the answer to this btw.
 

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#69
Glad I don't live in Wales. Also have to wonder about the legality of this. There's nothing to stop them sending out fixed penalty notices, but I have to wonder if the video evidence would stand up to legal requirements for admissibility should the penalty be challenged in a Court. Merely showing there's be an infringement is completely different to meeting evidencial rules on admissibility. I don't know the answer to this btw.
I think the first case where someone is charged due to a fake video would see the whole idea canned, way too easy for this system to be manipulated
 

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#70
I think the first case where someone is charged due to a fake video would see the whole idea canned, way too easy for this system to be manipulated
The system has been running successfully in North Wales since October 2016, it has since spread to the whole of Wales, it is not going to be canned due to a single problem video, far more likely that it will spread around England in the next few years.

If someone could show that a video was faked then the case would probably just be dropped, and then maybe they would charge the faker with some charges that carry serious penalties - "perverting the course of justice" (maximum sentence of life imprisonment) or whatever is appropriate. Sending in a fake video would certainly be a stupid thing to try!
 

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#71
The system has been running successfully in North Wales since October 2016, it has since spread to the whole of Wales, it is not going to be canned due to a single problem video, far more likely that it will spread around England in the next few years.

If someone could show that a video was faked then the case would probably just be dropped, and then maybe they would charge the faker with some charges that carry serious penalties - "perverting the course of justice" (maximum sentence of life imprisonment) or whatever is appropriate. Sending in a fake video would certainly be a stupid thing to try!
if the legal precedent gets set then it becomes a get of jail free card for later use
 

Nigel

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#72
if the legal precedent gets set then it becomes a get of jail free card for later use
It is always going to be much easier to pay the fixed penalty than go to court and risk the court taking x% of your income. The use of video evidence in the courts has already been sorted and the police are going to be rejecting videos that are not suitable. Our dashcam videos seem to be treated the same as police dashcam videos which have been used in court for many years.
 

Module 79L

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#74
and who's to say what's intentional or not
Come on, you know perfectly well when it's intentional! Plus, you have the advantage of being able to review the footage afterwards and analyse the situations better than in the "heat" of the moment, before deciding to report them. Unless you're one of those who let the card(s) overwrite to infinity and never review the footage...

Anyway, since I live in a country where the Police doesn't even act on their own, let alone on video-supported reports, and impunity rules the streets, I don't have anything relevant to bring to this discussion. Over and out.
 

Module 79L

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#75

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#76
Talking about misleading titles
Thats the prime reason for my intense hatred against journalists and the places they work, for sure a good reporter are no longer the regular Joe's guard against wrongdoing of others.
Today journalists sell papers or clicks,,,, and nothing more sadly.
 

c4rc4m

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#77
The system has been running successfully in North Wales since October 2016, it has since spread to the whole of Wales, it is not going to be canned due to a single problem video, far more likely that it will spread around England in the next few years.

If someone could show that a video was faked then the case would probably just be dropped, and then maybe they would charge the faker with some charges that carry serious penalties - "perverting the course of justice" (maximum sentence of life imprisonment) or whatever is appropriate. Sending in a fake video would certainly be a stupid thing to try!
I'm not saying it hasn't spread. I'm just saying I wonder if anyone's challenged the footage in Court. There used to be specific requirements for video evidence to be submitted as evidence in Court - the police's own footage had to be recorded "by proof", which meant a whole lot of anti-tamper measures had to be proven. Not sure what the requirements are now, but whilst in theory anti-tamper requirements could be met, it's harder to prove there's not been tampering when it's a 3rd party video. I'd say it's almost certainly going to require the original SD card, which in turn for anyone recording the footage, means if they've made the slightest infraction on any of the many 10's of GB of data on there, then they themselves could find themselves prosecuted. Very thin edge of the wedge and potentially damaging to the person submitting as well as the original offender.
 

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#78
I'm not saying it hasn't spread. I'm just saying I wonder if anyone's challenged the footage in Court. There used to be specific requirements for video evidence to be submitted as evidence in Court - the police's own footage had to be recorded "by proof", which meant a whole lot of anti-tamper measures had to be proven. Not sure what the requirements are now, but whilst in theory anti-tamper requirements could be met, it's harder to prove there's not been tampering when it's a 3rd party video. I'd say it's almost certainly going to require the original SD card, which in turn for anyone recording the footage, means if they've made the slightest infraction on any of the many 10's of GB of data on there, then they themselves could find themselves prosecuted. Very thin edge of the wedge and potentially damaging to the person submitting as well as the original offender.
Not sure what the law actually is, but all the police submission websites do state that you must keep the SD card with the original recording safe as it may be required if the case is contested. That is the only requirement given. I suspect the law is based mainly on you giving a witness statement, where you will have to state that the video is accurate and then the court just needs to decide on who is telling the truth and if it was an offence. The original recording then only becomes necessary if the case is for example based on illegal speed where the speed is calculated from the video and then the calculation can be contested, but I doubt that the police often issue speeding tickets based on dashcam evidence, too easy to contest, most of the cases will be dangerous driving, driving without due care and attention etc. which are not so easy to contest and which would not set a clear precedent anyway.

I doubt the police often search your card for evidence against you, they may be entitled to, but they would quickly stop receiving videos if they did that! In any case, we know that they don't get hold of the card in 98% of cases since they are not contested, so it is only what you upload that can be seen.

Of course if you are a burglar and use your own car in the burglaries then submitting the card to the police as evidence with a signed statement of its accuracy is a little stupid.