COVID-19 Coronavirus Thread

[Nigel]

Dr. Fauci has been the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984

Indeed, and as director is obviously the person who does all the research and development! Although your quote does make use of words like "helped" and "contributed". One of his developments is the covid-19 vaccine being produced by Moderna, which is convenient for Fauci since it means that (even though it was paid for by the USA taxpayers) he is the one who has his name on the development so gets the royalties. Obviously he has a good reason to ensure that the USA chooses to purchase the Moderna vaccine and not any other, but that is not difficult since he is also the one organising the trials and has thus prioritised testing of his vaccine over others.

The NIH claims joint ownership of Moderna's coronavirus vaccine

Taxpayers have a sizable stake in the vaccine Moderna is developing.

www.axios.com

Royalty payments to staff researchers cause new NIH troubles

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

NIH Implements Royalty Disclosure Policy Five Years After Promise - KFF Health News

khn.org

NIH launches clinical trials network to test COVID-19 vaccines and other prevention tools

Network website features secure method for volunteering for studies.

www.nih.gov

Moderna loses challenge over vaccine tech patent to Arbutus, may have to share in royalties

The ‘069 patent relates to lipid nanoparticle (LNP) technology that allows the human body to make its own therapeutic proteins.

www.firstpost.com

In the UK we do things differently, the Oxford vaccine with development paid for by the UK taxpayer is being supplied to the world at cost, there are no profits, currently with manufacture of 2 billion doses sorted and Japan now joining up for manufacture.

 

[kamkar]

News seem to indicate that Iranians ( too ) have been creative on the corona books when it come to the death and infected columns.
TBH i am not the least surprised

 

[Nigel]

News seem to indicate that Iranians ( too ) have been creative on the corona books when it come to the death and infected columns.
TBH i am not the least surprised

I certainly hope their new case figures are not correct, because 10% of them are dying! (according to the figures)

I think they are actually matching the USA and the numbers will now drop away.

 

[kamkar]

Scary indeed for the guys down there, maybe a prime example of misallocation of funds, CUZ Iran are not totally without means of income, though of course various embargo's dont make things easy.
Lets hope people wake up and change some things, which i personally think is overdue in a lot of places and ways.
It is a big poop pie, and we are all going to take a bite of it.

I have often wondered this, if there never had been any oil and gas under the middle east, what kind of world would that have been today ?
And not least what would the western world have looked like today.

 

[Dashmellow]

Indeed, and as director is obviously the person who does all the research and development! Although your quote does make use of words like "helped" and "contributed". One of his developments is the covid-19 vaccine being produced by Moderna, which is convenient for Fauci since it means that (even though it was paid for by the USA taxpayers) he is the one who has his name on the development so gets the royalties. Obviously he has a good reason to ensure that the USA chooses to purchase the Moderna vaccine and not any other, but that is not difficult since he is also the one organising the trials and has thus prioritised testing of his vaccine over others.

The NIH claims joint ownership of Moderna's coronavirus vaccine

Taxpayers have a sizable stake in the vaccine Moderna is developing.

www.axios.com

Royalty payments to staff researchers cause new NIH troubles

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

NIH Implements Royalty Disclosure Policy Five Years After Promise - KFF Health News

khn.org

NIH launches clinical trials network to test COVID-19 vaccines and other prevention tools

Network website features secure method for volunteering for studies.

www.nih.gov

Moderna loses challenge over vaccine tech patent to Arbutus, may have to share in royalties

The ‘069 patent relates to lipid nanoparticle (LNP) technology that allows the human body to make its own therapeutic proteins.

www.firstpost.com

In the UK we do things differently, the Oxford vaccine with development paid for by the UK taxpayer is being supplied to the world at cost, there are no profits, currently with manufacture of 2 billion doses sorted and Japan now joining up for manufacture.

It is remarkable that you try to twist the narrative about Dr. Fauci, by selecting a few verbs from the text like "helped" or "contributed" while ignoring his noted research breakthroughs, treatments protocols, accomplishments, awards and citations.
Your specific false claim that I responded to was that "Dr Fauci is a good example of a doctor rather than a scientist". So, now that your insult to Dr. Fauci has been debunked, rather than acknowledge your falsehood you seek to change the subject by injecting (once again, Ad nauseam) the Oxford vaccine into the discussion. It won't work. No doubt, any intelligent, discerning member reading this can see right through you.

As for your sarcastic remark that, "as director (Fauci) is obviously the person who does all the research and development" you are apparently ignorant of the fact that when he was offered the position as director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases he stipulated that he would not take the job unless he could retain his laboratory and continue his research work along with key long time staff members and he has done exactly that for the last 34 years. In fact, he has turned down several offers to lead his agency's parent, the NIH because he didn't wish to give up his role as a scientist to become exclusively an administrator.

All you seem to know how to do is disparage people and other nations while at the same time presenting a false and illusory image of UK grandeur and prowess. Truly despicable! Meanwhile, the UK continues to plod along with the highest deaths per million population count in Europe.

Curious too, how you focus exclusively on the Oxford vaccine while ignoring all the other entities already engaged in promising vaccine phase 3 trials such as Johnson & Johnson (which has pledged an initial supply of 1 billion doses and Pfizer and BioNTech which have entered phase 2/3. In fact, there are currently 165 SARS CoV-2 vaccines under development, of which 18 are in phase 1, 12 are in phase 2 and 6 are in phase 3. Some are in combined phase 2/3 trials to speed development and in some cases manufacturing is gearing up even before testing has been completed. While everyone is approaching this as an "all hands on deck" effort that will require more than one entity and one nation to be involved in developing vaccines and providing them to billions of people around the world, you weirdly act like the Oxford vaccine is the only game in town and somehow no other company, institute or nation other than the UK has anything worthwhile to contribute. Your attitude is pathological, counterproductive and inappropriate.

 

[Dashmellow]

Johns Hopkins University of Medicine just released their latest mortality rate stats.

As @Nigel is so fond of saying, once again the UK comes out on top. And by quite a margin!

UK 15.1%
USA 3.3%
Denmark 4.4%
Australia 1.2%
India 2.1%

 

[kamkar]

If i was a gambling man i would take bets about who came up with the best vaccine ( not the first one, the best one )

All of this throwing numbers around and pointing fingers get us no where other than pushing on the boundaries of the forum rules.
By now this thread should only be 80 pages long.

 

[Nigel]

Johns Hopkins University of Medicine just released their latest mortality rate

Is that the Trump statistics department?

For the last 6 weeks, UK mortality has been less than the 5 year average, we have less deaths than normal, your graph does not show mortality rate!

 

[Dashmellow]

Is that the Trump statistics department?

For the last 6 weeks, UK mortality has been less than the 5 year average, we have less deaths than normal, your graph does not show mortality rate!

Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, founded in 1893 is consistently ranked one of the most highly regarded institutions in the world with 38 faculty & alumni counted as Nobel laureates in medicine and chemistry.

Their independent research and health information statistics have nothing whatsoever to do with the Trump administration.

Your level of denial about the coronavirus crisis situation in the UK is laughable at this point.

 

[Dashmellow]

All of this throwing numbers around and pointing fingers get us no where other than pushing on the boundaries of the forum rules.

You are absolutely right about the forum rules. Nigel is literally the only member on DCT who consistently disparages and trolls other nations and its citizens while at the same time engaging in exagerated boasts about the UK. Here in this thread it has mostly been against the USA although other countries like Italy and a several others have been belittled and denigrated regarding the COVID situations they have had to contend with. Not too long ago he spent months excoriating Australia during the bush-fire tragedy they suffered through, while other members expressed concern and compassion. I am often surprised that few if any other members speak up about this behavior.

 

[kamkar]

Well seeing what happen elsewhere do make me wonder some times, but it is so far out of my hand i can do nothing about it, so all i can do is urge people i care about in those areas to be careful and mindful.
And it is not rocket science this stuff, only a few things you can do to minimize the chance of you catching it, and then pray if you are that way inclined.

The record here from mid March was 446 or something infected in a day, this past weekend we have 226 but on 3 days i think ( FRI - SAT - SUN ), so here things are moving in the wrong direction too and people high and low are grasping at straws as no one want to slam the door on Danish society again like months ago.
Like elsewhere Danes have become complacent and thinking a few things open up so here we are back to normal, but things are not normal yet and they will not be that anytime soon.
And it dont take much before we have doctors running around barely able to keep up, and no one should want to be in that situation again.

To paraphrase a famous guy in this corona scenario " Ask not how other people can protect you, ask how you can protect other people"

 

[Nigel]

The record here from mid March was 446 or something infected in a day, this past weekend we have 226 but on 3 days i think ( FRI - SAT - SUN ), so here things are moving in the wrong direction too and people high and low are grasping at straws as no one want to slam the door on Danish society again like months ago.

Unfortunately it is time to close down the indoor pubs, churches and other indoor gathering places again, quickly before you have to take more drastic measures. No good will come from waiting, something needs to change quickly, otherwise it will go up exponentially. You don't have enough immunity to keep everything open and keep R < 1.0.

As for that Johns Hopkins graph, the reason the UK is way out in the lead, well ahead of the USA, is not because we have had more deaths than the USA (we haven't), but because of our testing strategy. Sometimes understanding statistics is almost rocket science!

 

[Dashmellow]

As for that Johns Hopkins graph, the reason the UK is way out in the lead, well ahead of the USA, is not because we have had more deaths than the USA (we haven't), but because of our testing strategy. Sometimes understanding statistics is almost rocket science!

Rubbish! It has nothing to do with your testing strategy. It is based on the number of deaths per 100,000 population and nearly 47,000 UK citizens have died, and quite possibly signifcantly more by some accounts!

The US number is lower because we are a much larger nation with a much high population - 331,176,957 vs 67,918,139 in the UK.

 

[kamkar]

I am not sure with what kind of salt those numbers are to be taken, if it is XXXXX dead in 100.000 tested or XXXXX dead out of 100.000 of the population size.
I would assume the latter, if it is out of number of tested people it would not make sense.
But if it is population the numbers will of course be individual as no two countries have the same number of people living there, so you cant really compare the two, just say one place is worse off than the other in relation to how many live there and have fallen by this.

So if 2700 out of 100.000 die, then the country with the largest population are better off right now,,,,,,, but with a larger population this could of course change providing the infection rate are the same in both places.



I assume MATH are not my strong side at all.

 

[Nigel]

I am not sure with what kind of salt those numbers are to be taken,

The problem with the graph is that it is number of deaths per positive test.

The UK has done a lot more tests per person than USA, however during the main part of the epidemic we did very little testing, only testing people that arrived sick in hospital. Most of our tests have been done recently, trying to find the last few cases, and so most have been negative. The USA on the other hand is doing most testing during the peak of their epidemic so has far more positive tests and thus far less deaths per positive test.

Deaths per positive test is not a very useful graph unless you are Trump and trying to convince people that the USA is doing well by blinding them with statistics!

 

[Dashmellow]

Once again, Nigel, the graph has nothing to do with testing and states clearly what the data represents. Numbers of deaths.

You sound like Donald Trump, as if you lie hard enough and often enough you can convince yourself your phony narrative is true.


"For the twenty countries currently most affected by COVID-19 worldwide, the bars in the chart below show the number of deaths either per 100 confirmed cases (observed case-fatality ratio) or per 100,000 population (this represents a country’s general population, with both confirmed cases and healthy people). Countries at the top of this figure have the most deaths proportionally to their COVID-19 cases or population, not necessarily the most deaths overall."

 

[Nigel]

Once again, Nigel!, the graph has nothing to do with testing

Your graph is clearly labeled on the x-axis "Observed case fatality ratio", where an "observed case" is a person who has tested positive, or in many countries simply a positive test with some people testing positive several times. Since most of the UK's covid cases were never tested, but the deaths were nearly all counted, we have a high figure on the graph. It would be perfectly possible to exceed the UK figure on the graph in a country with only 10 deaths in a 100 million population, if you only had 10 positive tests because you only tested the ten people who died - that would give 100% on the graph!


More statistics - UK's excess death ratio for 2020 is now dropping fast:

(x-axis is week number.)

 

[Dashmellow]

Your graph is clearly labeled on the x-axis "Observed case fatality ratio", where an "observed case" is a person who has tested positive, or in many countries simply a positive test with some people testing positive several times. Since most of the UK's covid cases were never tested, but the deaths were nearly all counted, we have a high figure on the graph. It would be perfectly possible to exceed the UK figure on the graph in a country with only 10 deaths in a 100 million population, if you only had 10 positive tests because you only tested the ten people who died - that would give 100% on the graph!


More statistics - UK's excess death ratio for 2020 is now dropping fast:
View attachment 52863
(x-axis is week number.)

Keep grasping at straws, Nigel.

Once again, you sound like Trump who would have people believe that if fewer tests were done, then somehow miraculously there would be fewer covoid cases. The problem with that thinking is that when you're dead, you're dead. And 47,000 deaths in the UK is 680 per million population, the highest in Europe and one of the highest in the world. Even with the horrendous politically motivated debacle we are experiencing in the US we are still only at 480.

 

[Nigel]

Once again, you sound like Trump

Actually, Trump is having exactly the same problem as you in understanding that graph. Taking deaths as a proportion of detected cases only works if you detect all cases, which is something the UK never tried to do (because it doesn't help save lives) and the USA is trying but failing to do because it is impossible.

Trump trying to explain his misunderstanding of observed fatality rate to a mystified Australian :

 

[Dashmellow]

Actually, Trump is having exactly the same problem as you in understanding that graph. Taking deaths as a proportion of detected cases only works if you detect all cases, which is something the UK never tried to do (because it doesn't help save lives) and the USA is trying but failing to do because it is impossible.

Trump trying to explain his misunderstanding of observed fatality rate to a mystified Australian :

This particular interaction with you Nigel began when I called you out on the spurious insults you directed at Dr. Anthony Fauci regarding his status as a scientist. Your response was to further insult Dr. Fauci by falsely implying that he doesn't do any of his own research. And then you promptly changed the subject. Of course, chronically engaging in this sort of calumny is simply your usual M.O., so it is hardly surprising.

When taken to task for being the only member on this forum who regularly makes demeaning and insulting remarks directed at other nations and/or their citizens, thus violating the rules here on DCT again your response was to ignore the post and quickly change the subject.

When presented with data from the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine showing that the UK has the highest mortality rate in the world your response was to accuse this highly respected institution of being "the Trump statistics department".
You've previously made similar disparaging remarks about The Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington when you didn't care for their research and statistics after they didn't show the UK in a flattering light.

When that tack didn't work you tried to dismiss the data as being a result of the UK "testing strategy" without any sort of explanation. Of course, when that rational didn't quite pan out because you don't need a "testing strategy" to count the 47,000 dead COVID victims in the UK, you changed the subject once again to "excess deaths". The Johns Hopkins chart data never mentions "excess deaths", it mentions only confirmed covid deaths.

Of course, excess deaths are an issue and in the UK they have indeed come down recently, which is a good development, as UK corpses were found rotting in their beds at home. Apparently though, you want everyone to ignore the elephant in the room regarding "excess deaths" in the UK from the very beginning of the pandemic, seeking as always to present a false narrative as you criticize other countries, talk about "who's winning" and boast about what a fantastic job your government has done to handle the crisis. It will be interesting to see what happens when the second coronavirus wave hits your shores next fall and winter. It will also certainly be interesting to see what comes of the investigation into the disastrous UK handling of the pandemic that is currently under way.





Distraction can only get you so far, of course, Nigel and now amusingly you drag Donald Trump into the discussion in an attempt to further distance yourself from your own remarks with yet another typical example of Trump simply making stuff up in an effort to convince himself that the alternate reality he and his loyal acolytes live in is real.

So, ever since this thread began you have been beating your chest, boasting of Britain's great prowess and success in dealing with the SARS-CoV-2 crisis while criticizing every other nation and yet the facts don't jive with your false and self serving ultra-nationalist narrative. You spend your time attacking highly respected individuals like Dr. Fauci, gloating over the COVID death tolls and crisis in other nations, especially the US, all the while desperately attempting to tout the UK in the most heroic of terms.

By every measure the COVID-19 response in the UK have been a complete disaster over the last six months or more. Amusingly, once again, you sound quite a lot like Donald Trump in this regard, fudging the facts and moving the goalposts. You come off sounding rather like Boris too!

Equally amusing is watching you twist yourself into knots trying to put lipstick on this UK COVID-19 pig.

Even the casual observer can clearly see that your narrative is empty.