Divided federal appeals court rules you have the right to film the police

Discussion in 'Legal Questions' started by Street Guardian USA, Feb 25, 2017.

  1. Street Guardian USA

    Street Guardian USA Well-Known Member Retailer

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  2. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
    I assure younger readers that to more grown up people, sticking a camera in someone's face without permission is an obnoxious and hostile act, and consequences should be expected.

    If you think being obnoxiously hostile to a police officer is something to be proud of, then good luck with that. You have the right.
     
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  3. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    Turner needed a better lawyer. The precedent for filming any Government employee in public was set back in 2011 by the 1st Appeals Court in Glik v Cinniffe which clearly showed that is is legal to record video of any Government official in public as long as it does not impair them in accomplishing their official duties. Note that this does not allow audio recording which lies in the domain of State, not Federal law. It's absurd that the US legal system still allows Appellate Courts to differ in verdicts which essentially changes Federal Law from one area to another; it is a situation of Judges taking action simply because they can and they want to :mad:

    The main change here is that it has now been ruled that an arrest made solely on the grounds of a citizen's non-compliance when asked to stop filming is illegal and not protected by the 'Qualified Immunity" doctrine.

    In this day and age where near-instant communication is possible there should be an end to that practice as well. Police have long been knowingly abusing the leeway Qualified Immunity gives them by wrongfully arresting people then dropping the charges later on, which is essentially the same as kidnapping. IMHO one rule should apply to all with no exceptions ;)

    Thanks for posting this Jon :D
    Phil
     
  4. Viking

    Viking Well-Known Member

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    I would like to express what I think about the camera guy, but that will get me banned.

    Thanks for the "How not to record police" video.

    Edit. I just saw there got different skin pigmentation. I wonder what that could be used for?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
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  5. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    I too wouldn't recommend behavior that is intentionally offensive to someone else, but in a society ruled by law you should have every expectation to freely do whatever those laws allow without being arrested for doing it. At this point without seeing all of the Court recordings, the only illegal act Turner seems to have done was that he failed to identity himself accurately to the Police and he might have come closer than the Glik v Cinniffe decision allows. He did nothing wrong by filming Police in public but he certainly could have done that in a much better way than he apparently did.

    Phil
     
  6. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    yep, play stupid games, win stupid prizes
     
  7. dash riposki

    dash riposki Well-Known Member

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    Do these whiny shi*s have jobs?
     
  8. country_hick

    country_hick Well-Known Member

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    I would have kept walking and said nothing. Maybe I would say I do not answer questions as I was walking away. Do not engage until told you are detained. Detain as its legal definition means "to arrest".

    I recorded the police on 2 different traffic stops. I am in the 1st circuit where that is 100% acceptable per Glik v Cunliffe. It is for everyone's safety.
     
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  9. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    There's nothing wrong with recording events. There's nothing wrong with staying silent. There's nothing wrong with stating your rights.

    BUT ALL OF THESE THINGS CAN BE DONE RESPECTFULLY! And without SEEKING confrontation. You can even be friendly while doing them.

    These idiots doing "audits" of their rights are setting out to create the problem situations they claim to be fixing, then see themselves as heroes and expect to be idolised by viewers.

    What they are doing is a perverse, most cowardly form of bullying, because they know police are not allowed to respond on equal terms.

    If these people really want to perform an "audit" of their rights, maybe they should confront suspicious looking people on the streets. After all, they don't want the police to do it for them.

    Sent from my tap-to-talk using Tapatalk
     
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  10. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    Yep, fail the attitude test and it's all downhill from there
     
  11. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    Detention for questioning and arrest are different, but both have specific requirements before they are allowed, and both have legal remedies available if they are not used correctly. The big problem is that those legal remedies are so restricted that it is nearly impossible to successfully use them, and almost never do they even come close to properly compensating their victims :( In the US, you cannot challenge a criminal law for propriety or whether it is Constitutionally allowable until an arrest and prosecution has been made- in other words someone must break the law to hopefully get it overturned. There are no restrictions on lawmakers being able to pass laws which are clearly unconstitutional, therefore this is the sole method citizens have to prevent such laws from taking effect. It is a p-poor system which heavily favors the Government over the citizens, and invites abuse by Law Enforcement personnel who are nearly unprosecuteable for those abuses :mad:

    Unfortunately most Americans have no clue about their legal rights as citizens, nor do they understand how the legal system functions or how all it takes is one well-placed person who simply does not like you to cause your ruin :eek: There are huge numbers of laws which are clearly unconstitutional but which are in effect anyway with little chance of them being overturned o_O It takes so much money to successfully challenge a law's merits that less than 10% of the people could do it on a personal level, which is why groups such as the ACLU exist so that at least the worst of these abuses can be rectified, as even they have financial limitations. The Police and the Government know how to use the system against you improperly and in my estimation this comprises about 50% of their current activities. It is only when you begin digging into these things like I have that you begin to see the problem and how vulnerable you are on a personal level.

    I find it quite interesting to read and understand why cases like this one follow the course that they do and I encourage everyone to follow my lead here. I must warn you that once you see the real and whole truth your entire life will change because of that knowledge as you discover that everything you thought you knew about America and how it works was wrong ;) I see Turner as neither a hero or as an anarchist, but rather as an ordinary person who chose to exercise his legal rights in a rather poor manner. The Court concluded with a correct and proper ruling which said essentially the same thing, but what is worrisome here is that there's one Judge who clearly does not believe in the laws and rules of this land and there's nothing which can legally be done by us to fix that much, much bigger problem :oops:

    Phil
     
  12. DT MI

    DT MI Well-Known Member

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    Here's a perfect example of just that:

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...in-open-carry-case-at-dearborn-police-station
     
  13. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    As an outsider, this just sounds confusing. Are you saying the constitution places no restriction on law making, or that the restrictions are not enforced? Does the Constitution take precedence over the Law? Legally? Does that make the Constitution itself a law? Oooerr, it's easy to get caught up in circular definitions! :confused:
    Maybe these people should leave such activities to people like you who can properly express their thoughts.:) I think they are doing more harm than good on so many levels, both to their own interests and other people's.
     
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  14. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    @Rajagra:
    I agree with your last half- how you approach something can decide what is going to happen after that. Public opinion has no place in the Law but it can open or close doors for you so it also must be considered. When the Civil Rights movement happened here, it was the non-violent non-confrontational approach that brought forth the change in public opinion that eventually caused the government to follow along. A similar approach was needed here but it didn't quite happen.

    The consideration of a laws legality lies in the realm of the Judicial branch of the Federal Government. They exercise no direct power over the Legislative branch in order to maintain a balance pf power between the branches of Government. So the Legislature can do whatever it wants, but if it is illegal or unconstitutional the Judicial branch can stop it afterward, just not before then. This always takes time and usually requires that someone be prosecuted under that law before the Judaical branch acts as there are only limited circumstances where are they allowed to consider a legal case or point otherwise.

    So to determine the scope and limits of a Federal law, there must be somebody whose hide is on the line because of that law, either voluntarily as is seen here, or involuntarily which us how this normally occurs. In addition to that, the law's legality must be brought into question as the main point of that legal case before a decision for or against it can be made. Only the legal redress requested can be answered, which keeps the Judicial branch from having a free hand in changing the Legislature's laws without a direct and compelling reason to do that.

    It's a clunky slow system but it almost always does what it is supposed to be doing in balancing the powers given to the Federal Government so that one segment cannot override the other two, and so far I have not found any better system overall. The main failure of our Federal Government is in the people who run it and how they have changed their focus from acting for the good of the people to their trying to add to their own personal gaining of power :( So the system worked correctly here, but not as well as it should have or could have.

    Phil
     
  15. country_hick

    country_hick Well-Known Member

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    The constitution means what 5 justices on the supreme court thinks it should mean.
    The constitution is the supreme law of the land. However, US Supreme Court decisions are above the written document as that court defines what the constitution says.

    South Carolina v. United States, 199 US 437 - Supreme Court 1905
    "The Constitution is a written instrument. As such its meaning does not alter. That which it meant when adopted it means now. Being a grant of powers to a government its language is general, and as changes come in social and political life it embraces in its grasp all new conditions which are within the scope of the powers in terms conferred. In other words, while the powers granted do not change, they apply from generation to generation to all things to which they are in their nature applicable. This in no manner abridges the fact of its changeless nature and meaning."

    In the last 112 years many judges ignore this and believe the constitution is a living breathing document that changes so it means what they want it to mean.

    To say the constitution must show the right to legislate about something is not to understand law making authority. (paraphrased from a court case I read) The legislature has authority to pass virtually any law unless the constitution says they can not and judges agree.

    I have 2 state constitutional arguments in front of the highest court in my state now. I challenged trial by jury for a traffic ticket and the rules of court are written by the wrong branch. Topping it off I challenged the rules of court as an ADA violation based on a learning disability. No one except lawyers can get clear and effective communications from the rules of court as they are written in legalese. I can not benefit from the court if I can not understand its rules and no one will explain the steps a trial goes through so I can prepare for it. A decision should come any time. It was heard the 3rd week of January. 2 weeks to 4 months is normal for a written decision but I saw a recent case that took over 11 months to get a written decision. This action took me well over 2,000 hours and over $500 without a lawyer involved.

    Almost no one appeals a traffic ticket conviction. Besides me who would appeal a $50 ticket and spend over $500 in the process and spend hundreds of hours just putting an appeal together?
     
  16. Street Guardian USA

    Street Guardian USA Well-Known Member Retailer

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  17. country_hick

    country_hick Well-Known Member

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    If you watch this video and ever trust police again you have not paid attention.



    You must have legal standing to bring suit in court. That means you have been legally (not physically) injured. Somehow being one of the people of your state who own the state when your state violates its mandates is not enough to be legally injured. I got 2 traffic tickets on purpose to challenge some laws. Judges are power crazy. Everyone in the country who works for government is immune from prosecution more or less. Only normal men and women are not immune from prosecution.

    There is not 1 judge who does not believe in the application of constitutions. There re boatloads of judges like that. That is why the supreme court nominations go through such scrutiny and have such difficulty in getting confirmed.

    I have read a boatload of court cases. What the courts have done is impermissible. Court cases prior to 1850 are very different than decisions since 2005. Rights are simply stolen by the courts.
     
  18. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    @country_hick:
    I hope you get 2 wins :D There have been movements to reduce the 'kegalese' language in some places, but it doesn't ever extend into the deeper legal proceedings or documents. The causes of the problem are many and far too complex to go into here but the end effect is that only those who can afford to pay for a good lawyer have any hope of seeing justice in the US :( I learned that from my attorney who was also a Judge in a nearby jurisdiction as well as being my friend (RIP). When even the Judges know the system is unjust and unfair yet that system continues there is something terribly wrong going on :eek:

    I truly wish I could go back in time and become a lawyer just to spend as much time as I could fighting the injustices and wrongs in our legal system and restoring the power and freedom of the people to where it was originally intended to be :cool: Sadly I'm too old for that now. I'm glad there are people like you and Turner (of the OP's reference) who at least make the effort and take the risks of fighting the system. Without that we'd be living in a Police State with no freedom and no hope for anything better.

    Kudos and Good Luck!
    Phil
     
  19. Viking

    Viking Well-Known Member

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    His job is self-employed SJW.

    These people are easy to find on the extreme left and right side of the political spectrum.
    In general, the normal public don’t care about these people and that is a problem for them, since there like to be taken serious.
    It’s a very typical example, where the guy knows he could have recorded 98% other places without any problem. He chose the one, where he knows there is a 100% guaranty for confrontation.
    The next thing is try to victimized them self and to escalated the situation.
    He knows police is a target for bad people and there need to be upfront with possible threat. Police need to take the necessary step to make sure it’s not a threat. Example find out why people approach them.
    I know he got the legal right to record and to be silent. Police can easy justify their action at the judge. He started to acted nervous, when we asked his name and what he was doing.

    Humongous
     
  20. dash riposki

    dash riposki Well-Known Member

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    The police need to have a planned script, and procedure to deal with these 'activists'. Learn it, memorize it, stick to it.
     

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