Firmware with double click to format sd card

[dashing_gentleman]

The programmers for the B1w seem to be listening in on this forum and be very helpful with providing new features. Would it be possible to create a firmware where a double click of the button could be used to format the sd-card and the wifi defaults to off? Best regards.

 

[estore009]

If you want to boot with WiFi default off, you should load WiFi default Off firmware!
And as to double-click to format SD card, it is possible, but we need to poll it!

 

[sdl87]

IMHO, this is a terrible idea. As it is, it sometimes locks the file when I'm trying to turn on/off WiFi, and sometimes it locks the file when I'm installing/removing my windshield sun visor. I don't want to format the SD card because I accidentally double-click the button, which is really easy to touch unintentionally, and really sensitive. That would lead to threads here - and reviews elsewhere - about how annoying it is that everyone keeps accidentally formatting their SD cards.

The utility menu already has the option to format the SD card. Does anyone need to format their SD card so often that they need a shortcut? But if you're going to add double-click to format, why not also have it just randomly format the SD card every so often, since that's what'll happen anyway when people try to click once and it registers as a double-click instead.

Or, if you want to improve the product, how about fixing support for the iPhone 4S?

 

[DT MI]

IMHO, this is a terrible idea.....I don't want to format the SD card because I accidentally double-click the button,...

Agree. Of all the changes that could be implemented in F/W (for any camera) I would be hard pressed to come up with something that could potentially be more harmful.

 

[dashing_gentleman]

Sure, it's not for everyone. Still, I would rather risk loosing some footage that is kept solely for emergency reasons anyways (to have prove in case of an accident) than be fined 150 Euros for possession of potentially illegally obtained data if I get into a traffic check. If the double click feature is really sensitive as some users here seem to believe (I have not tried it personally) it would maybe be better to format on long press and switch wifi on/off upon double click. I think this feature is essential for anyone living in Germany at the moment. I talked to a friend who happens to be a lawyer recently who agreed that to be fully legally operating a dash-cam in Germany at the moment you would have to use parking mode with a ten second buffer (footage only stored to ram, and only saved to the sd-card once the g-sensor is triggered). As the B1W has no such buffer you would risk not having the full accident on film once the sensor is triggered. With the button press to format the sd card we could just delete all data (that is not needed anymore anyways) after each drive and keep the invasion into other peoples privacy to a minimum that way.

 

[dashing_gentleman]

And just an idea if any developers or marketing guys are listening: You could bring a follow up to the g1w to the German market that has a parking sensor and some ram for buffering video before the g-sensor is triggered and have this as the default mode of recording. Put the price point maybe somewhere around the g1w and marked as as street legal webcam in Germany. I am sure many Germany would buy a dash cam as long as they can be sure it's legal to use it.

 

[estore009]

You could bring a follow up to the g1w to the German market that has a parking sensor and some ram for buffering video before the g-sensor is triggered and have this as the default mode of recording. Put the price point maybe somewhere around the g1w and marked as as street legal webcam in Germany.

Thanks for your suggestions.
And what is your suggestion how to handle emergency videos during normal recording on the Road?

 

[dashing_gentleman]

Ah to make it clear: As far as I understand, it's not at all allowed to record any video while the car is parked. It is not legal in Germany to record to sd-card all the time while driving, not even when it gets looped frequently. That's why the so called parking mode + buffering would be used while driving on the road. Only ten seconds of video are buffered to ram and actual saving to the sd-card starts, when the g-sensor is triggered. I would use the start record button as it is now to start the recording (to the sd-card) in an emergency as a failsafe if the g sensor does not work for some reason. Another option could be a voice command to start the emergency recording. I think the voice recognition would be preferable. According to German law you are not allowed to manually operate your phone to take phonecalls but it is legal to use voice recognition to start phone calls, as this type of operation is hands free. The same could be assumed to be true for the operation of a dashcam.

So while driving:
-- Constantly save to ram (only around 10 seconds seem to be legal)
-- only save to sd-card in emergency
-- save to sd card triggered by: g-sensor
-- failsafe: Voice command to start saving to sd-card
(-- optional failsafe: safe video to sd-card via button press) (might not be 100 % legal)

 

[Nigel]

Ah to make it clear: As far as I understand, it's not at all allowed to record any video while the car is parked. It is not legal in Germany to record to sd-card all the time while driving, not even when it gets looped frequently. That's why the so called parking mode + buffering would be used while driving on the road. Only ten seconds of video are buffered to ram and actual saving to the sd-card starts, when the g-sensor is triggered. I would use the start record button as it is now to start the recording (to the sd-card) in an emergency as a failsafe if the g sensor does not work for some reason. Another option could be a voice command to start the emergency recording. I think the voice recognition would be preferable. According to German law you are not allowed to manually operate your phone to take phonecalls but it is legal to use voice recognition to start phone calls, as this type of operation is hands free. The same could be assumed to be true for the operation of a dashcam.

So while driving:
-- Constantly save to ram (only around 10 seconds seem to be legal)
-- only save to sd-card in emergency
-- save to sd card triggered by: g-sensor
-- failsafe: Voice command to start saving to sd-card
(-- optional failsafe: safe video to sd-card via button press) (might not be 100 % legal)

Why do you think it is OK to save the data to RAM, but not to SD, when both are circular buffers that get over-written regularly?

The SD buffer may be a lot longer than 10 seconds, but until your legal system decides how long is an acceptable time for a buffer then it doesn't matter if it is 10 seconds or 10 hours. What does matter is the intention of the buffer, and the intention of both RAM and SD buffers is the same - to provide a chance to save the video if required, and overwrite it if not required.

Do you know of many cases where people have been charged with illegal use of dashcams and had to pay the fines?

 

[dashing_gentleman]

@Nigel: I think you make a good argument, but the highest German court sees a difference between whats written into ram and to the sd-card. From the text of the most recent dash-cam case (May) (translated to English): "The dash-cams memory needs to be permanently overwritten and should not be readable. Only the last few seconds before the jar/concussion shall be written into the readable memory." There sure is a difference between writing to ram and the sd-card. The ram gets deleted as soon as you turn of the power supply. I am not a hundred percent sure what the judges had in mind here. To my understanding it would still technically be possible to retrieve the data from a ram-chip, as long as the camera is powered up. I hope the judges meant not "easily readable" instead of "readable" memory. I hope they did not have an entirely more complicated solution in mind, where all data is encrypted in a way not readable to the user and only gets decrypted in case of an accident. I am not sure this would even be technically possible as the key to encrypt the data would need to be stored on the device and therefore be in the sphere of the user...

Do you know of many cases where people have been charged with illegal use of dashcams and had to pay the fines?

I just recently read about one case where a woman was fined 150 Euro for permanently taking video footage while driving. Part of the fine was even due to her recording audio of a phone call which unnecessarily recoreded a private conversation between her and the other person who had (obviously) not consented to being recorded. I don't know how often people get fined statistically for using a dashcam but I want to be able to prevent being fined while still using the b1w as a safety measure to record accidents. That's why I asked for the feature to erase all recorded footage with a button press or two.

 

[sdl87]

Perhaps the way to comply with this law - which may not even be a real problem (sample size: 1 lawyer friend) - is by unplugging your dash cam, and not by adding features that would frustrate everyone who isn’t in Germany. Why not get some clarity on the law before advocating features that would impact future firmware updates and dash cams?

On the one hand, it’s great that a manufacturer is responsive to forum feedback, but on the other hand all it takes is one random person on the other side of the world with a lawyer friend and next thing I know, future product enhancements can include a self-destruct button for my videos.

 

[dashing_gentleman]

The service team have released beta firmwares before for a few users that wanted a special mode of operation. (One user wanted to be able to switch to parking mode by double clicking the button for example). The team don't even release thoose firmwares to the broader public, they just send them to the user via private message. By no means would this affect everyone using the camera. Custom firmwares for a few users are the kind of awesome service you don't get on any of the way higher priced alternatives on the webcam market as far as I know, and a big part of why I opted for the b1w.

it takes is one random person on the other side of the world with a lawyer friend and next thing I know, future product enhancements can include a self-destruct button for my videos

Hey, it's all about options and user choice in my opinion. If you don't like the erase button, than by all means don't activate it. If I like to use it, why deny me the opportunity?

Perhaps the way to comply with this law - which may not even be a real problem (sample size: 1 lawyer friend) - is by unplugging your dash cam, and not by adding features that would frustrate everyone who isn’t in Germany

My statement concerning future products was just a business idea I had while speculating how the recent court ruling of the highest German court would affect the possibility of the legal use of webcams in Germany. Why not ship a webcam that has default options or suggestions for setup in a special region/country? Again with users choice to set it up however they want in the end. Your fear seems to be concerning hardwired options that cannot be changed by the user. I think we are really on the same page here. I don't want this to happen at all, I am trying to advocate more options and maximum customization available to us. My device -- my settings, while the product ships with sane and secure options activated only.

Back to the killswitch button: Unplugging is not an option. The police will just take the sdcard to the station and watch the content there. So at the moment I would feel a lot safer if I had the killswitch. It's either that, or not using the dash-cam at all, otherwise I am risking a fine every time I switch it on in the car. It is not yet clear how the recent court ruling will be interpreted by the police in the future...

 

[jokiin]

The service team have released beta firmwares before for a few users that wanted a special mode of operation. (One user wanted to be able to switch to parking mode by double clicking the button for example).

changing the behavior of a button press is a pretty minor change, what you're wanting is nowhere near as simple

 

[DT MI]

...If you don't like the erase button, than by all means don't activate it....

The issue is not the intentional use of the feature but rather the accidental activation which has the potential for a serious, negative and unwanted result.

 

[sdl87]

Back to the killswitch button: Unplugging is not an option. The police will just take the sdcard to the station and watch the content there.

Yeah, I was saying to unplug the dash cam and not use it. Not an ideal solution, but better than your other option.

The issue is not the intentional use of the feature but rather the accidental activation which has the potential for a serious, negative and unwanted result.

This. Every time I turn on the WiFi, I lock a file - which I suspect may actually be a bug as it seems to lock the file on button-press and not button-release, and then on button-release also turns on WiFi only if it's a long press. I also lock files regularly when I bump into the button while installing and removing my sun visor. Some of those may register as double clicks, but the only way to know for sure is to have it wipe all my data.

 

[Nigel]

...
Back to the killswitch button: Unplugging is not an option. The police will just take the sdcard to the station and watch the content there. So at the moment I would feel a lot safer if I had the killswitch. It's either that, or not using the dash-cam at all, otherwise I am risking a fine every time I switch it on in the car. It is not yet clear how the recent court ruling will be interpreted by the police in the future...

Note that formatting the SD Card just resets the file index. If the police actually wanted to fine you then they could still quite easily extract the data with file recovery tools. To actually wipe the data requires overwriting, which takes a long time, a lot longer than a police person will be prepared to wait for you to finish erasing evidence!

Are German police actually allowed to seize your memory card during a roadside check? Don't believe ours would even be allowed to watch the video without the owner's permission.

 

[DT MI]

...Only the last few seconds before the jar/concussion shall be written into the readable memory."...

Seems to me that a much simpler solution is to use a very small memory card - one capable of only writing 'the last few seconds'. A 1GB card will record .2 hours (12 minutes) of video at a 15Mbps bit rate and will then start looping and over writing the older data. If that's still too long just fill a portion of the card with garbage data that is 'read only' until the usable remaining space is down to a level you're comfortable with.

 

[dashing_gentleman]

changing the behavior of a button press is a pretty minor change, what you're wanting is nowhere near as simple

Can you elaborate on this a bit more, please? I was indeed asking for the a change in the behavior of a button. The option to format the sd card is already in the options menu, could this command not be hooked to a button?

The issue is not the intentional use of the feature but rather the accidental activation which has the potential for a serious, negative and unwanted result.

As it stands, you would have to ask on the forum for a firmware update, download and install said update to your camera to make the option of "press button to erase sd" available. I would indeed call such a deliberate and complicated action intentional and very unlikely to happen without intend.

Every time I turn on the WiFi, I lock a file - which I suspect may actually be a bug as it seems to lock the file on button-press and not button-release, and then on button-release also turns on WiFi only if it's a long press. I also lock files regularly when I bump into the button while installing and removing my sun visor. Some of those may register as double clicks, but the only way to know for sure is to have it wipe all my data.

Can you reproduce this behaviour while the g-sensor is turned off? I gets very easily triggered for me when I touch the camera. If you don't turn it off you might lock your file by touching the camera and not actually by presssing the button in a certain way. I would be willing to test the firmware as I don't care to much about the recorded data in my special use case. The option is important enough for me to live with the occasional data loss. If indeed the double click proofs unreliable, it would be an option to use double click for wifi on/off (which is no big issue if it gets switched from time to time) and long press to perform a disk format.

Note that formatting the SD Card just resets the file index. If the police actually wanted to fine you then they could still quite easily extract the data with file recovery tools. To actually wipe the data requires overwriting, which takes a long time, a lot longer than a police person will be prepared to wait for you to finish erasing evidence!


Are German police actually allowed to seize your memory card during a roadside check? Don't believe ours would even be allowed to watch the video without the owner's permission.

Good points. I assume and hope the police won't bother to recover old files from the sd card. I hope that would be too great an effort to prosecute a minor finable offence. Also you could say the g-sensor sometimes triggers when there is no accident and you erased those files as soon as possible. Making it a technical limitation and not intentional wrongdoing. I am not sure they would be allowed to seize a memory card. They have fined people before, though, so they must have had some way to gather evidence.

Seems to me that a much simpler solution is to use a very small memory card - one capable of only writing 'the last few seconds'. A 1GB card will record .2 hours (12 minutes) of video at a 15Mbps bit rate and will then start looping and over writing the older data. If that's still too long just fill a portion of the card with garbage data that is 'read only' until the usable remaining space is down to a level you're comfortable with.

Yeah, thats exactly what I am doing at the moment. 4 GB memory card and have reserved half the space for locked files. It loops at around 20 minutes at the moment. But even if I put some garbage files on it we are still talking minutes not seconds. I fear it's just not good enough and the memory card will brake a lot sooner if I write to a tiny portion of it over and over again....

 

[DT MI]

...As it stands, you would have to ask on the forum for a firmware update, download and install said update to your camera to make the option of "press button to erase sd" available. I would indeed call such a deliberate and complicated action intentional and very unlikely to happen without intend....

1) Would you then expect the manufacturer to support multiple versions of the firmware to accommodate just a small percentage of the user base?

2) Even with such a deliberate method to install the specialized F/W the potential for an inadvertent formatting of the card is still there during normal operation after installation and that is where the problem lies.

Yeah, thats exactly what I am doing at the moment. 4 GB memory card and have reserved half the space for locked files. It loops at around 20 minutes at the moment. But even if I put some garbage files on it we are still talking minutes not seconds. I fear it's just not good enough...

Then put more filler files on the card until you get to a usable, non-reserved capacity you're happy with, and use the minimum (probably 1 minute) file size to limit the amount of actual video retained.

 

[Nigel]

I fear it's just not good enough and the memory card will brake a lot sooner if I write to a tiny portion of it over and over again....

That may be true for old 4GB cards, but recent cards will ensure that the cells get evenly used, even moving files that have been hogging areas for a long time so that the low use bits do get fully used. So using a 64GB card and permanently filling it with 60GB of rubbish should result in 16x the life of a 4GB card.

Not sure how the B1W deals with a lot of rubbish on the card given that it reserves x% for locked files? Might end up with the locked files not being kept?