First Huawei, now Hikvision

Part is that people may not know, part is people may not care, part is they may have nothing to hide (like me). I'm most interested in what a product does for me (performance, cost, features, reliability, security against hacking) than whether it may have some kind of 'back door' in it. Which almost everything probably does these days :eek:

It's the same as it's always been- the only truly secure system has to be stand-alone and totally disconnected from any other system making access impossible except from the inside;)

Phil

I get what you’re saying and I’m not trying to bust balls or be pedantic, but everyone cares about their privacy. If you truly didn’t, then I’d ask that you post your name, number, address, ss#, bank account numbers, account password, your medical records ... etc. right here and right now in this thread. See what I mean? Entities with access to our most personal information are granted implicit trust with those very details. And it’s not just about trusting they won’t do anything nefarious with that information; it’s about trusting they have the capability to protect and safeguard it from those who want to steal it and do harm.

As for the issues with Huawei & ZTE, and the rest of the accused ... make no mistake: this is not about them having the ability to look into your contacts or photo albums. It’s about control, and power and manipulation.

Imagine Huawei & ZTE had kept the 5G buildout contracts for the ATT, Verizon and T-Mobile 5G networks (they did at one point, but no longer do after US intel stepped in). That means they design, build and provide the hardware and software for vast swaths of the US Telecom infrastructure. If what western intel says about them is indeed true — a stealth extension of the Communist Chinese military with hidden agenda and ability to manipulate or control that network, including shutting it down at will — imagine the possibilities in the event of a national emergency, catastrophe ... or God forbid, an act of war? I no longer have a landline. My iPhone is my only phone. Imagine hundreds of millions of people suddenly being unable to communicate? That is precisely why US government entities are summarily banned from doing ANY business with many of these Chinese companies. And now NATO as a whole and many western nations and are doing the same, including cancelling previous contracts and undoing anything they may have already built. US intel has long claimed that NK, Iran and the Russians already have hooks into the aging US power grid, with alarming and disturbing ability to cause havoc at will. Imagine that network was designed and built by them. You don’t want to. Many of Huwaei’s and ZTE’s products are very, very appealing, especially to businesses who have to spend tens of millions for the stuff. They often have the better tech and are dirt cheap in comparison to their competitors. Are they selling these products at a loss for the “greater good” or for some “greater goal”?

Lastly, when I rhetorically ask about why anyone would buy products from any of these entities knowing this information (and assuming they trust it to be true), I’m essentially asking why vote with your dollars and essentially support such an entity’s goal ... whatever that is? Do you trust what your government is telling you? Or do you trust what their government is telling you? Is it all lies and some kind of tug of war for economic hegemony, as some here imply, or military hegemony? Those are questions only each of us can decide for ourselves. And I think the answer lies somewhere smack dab in the middle between paranoia/anxiety ... and willful ignorance/not giving any Fs.
 
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Huawei have offered to work with GCHQ to let them go through their code to prove they're not doing anything that would report data back to the Chinese state.

At the end of the day Cisco could be doing the same with your data to the US government and Nokia and Ericsson could do the same for the EU.

I do sometimes wonder that a lot of sanctions the US makes against China are because they've had their noses put out of joint at the speed that the Chinese caught up and even overtook the US in certain areas.

China have by far the lead in patents granted for AI for example, an area that is exploding across various sectors https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019...ial-intelligence-patents-190131080732548.html

I would argue the problem with a Huawei and ZTE and the like is different in at least two ways. First, this is way, way more than about “your data”. We’re talking about massive infrastructure control and cyber warfare at a high level. Second, true Cisco and Nokia and the like may do the same, but they at least belong to private corporations in democratic countries with capitalist intent, not military extensions of communist regimes with militaristic intent. Hey, that’s not me saying this; that’s straight from western intel. Whether one believes that or not, is a personal matter.

The Chinese have made great advances in tech and manufacturing (arguably the best there is at the latter). How did they get there? Part hard work, blood and sweat. And, without question, part outright theft of western tech and patents (the Chinese often force western corporations to reveal their code or tech for the right to have access to their economy). That’s why I guffawed when the Chinese caused a scene when those US athletes were arrested for shoplifting during a shopping spree in China. The irony was not lost on me considering the Chinese themselves are one of the biggest thieves in the history of mankind.

But some say it’s warranted ... and that it stems from bitter memories and the Chinese Communist regime’s obsession for a revenge tour for what they call “the century of humiliation” by the west — from being forced to accept unfair treaties during the opium wars all the way to the communist revolution. That is one of the main reasons why they are currently willing to wreck their own economy rather than cede to the west. Their entire ideology is based upon standing up to the west. And yes, ultimately, this is about hegemony. No question about it.

It’s easy to punish and get into wars; the hard part is negotiating and working together peacefully.
 
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If what western intel says about them is indeed true — a stealth extension of the Communist Chinese military with hidden agenda and ability to manipulate or control that network, including shutting it down at will — imagine the possibilities in the event of a national emergency, catastrophe ... or God forbid, an act of war?
Maybe you should change that to USA!

Obviously putting all your eggs in one basket is not the way to build a resilient network, but that appears to be what the USA is doing by banning these companies and relying on one or two home grown systems! As for the security of the data that passes over the network, you should encrypt it, then it doesn't matter where it ends up.
 
I am sort of glad Huawei are in play here, normally Danish investments in IT and i assume digital infrastructure go to the most expensive and incompetent bidder.
So them now being in play here put a new twist on a old problem, only sure thing is the poor Danes will be paying the bill both monetary and in other ways.

Actually danish railways who are also a ISP or at least have a fiber optic backbone, well they did cancel a contract with Huawei to upgrade their fiber optic equipment earlier in the year.
But Huawei are still operating TDCs mobile branch and are still lined up to make their transition to 5G, but i have a sneaky feeling that will change soon as we Danes some times have a bright moment.
2 Huawei employees was sent home to China just 2 weeks ago, allegedly for work permit violations.
The provider Telia are working with Nokia for their 5G network in Denmark, but in Sweden they seem to be paired up with Erichsson
My provider are using Telias network, but also have a free roaming deal with TDC for 4G at least.
5g-165838.jpg


Since a great many of the big players are building huge data centers here, they cant be all that worried about being on networks attached to Huawei equipment, or maybe they know something we pleb Danes don't know.
 
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I'm not even going to give this one the honor of even a simple direct response. Just because something is designed, made, and controlled by people in your own Nation doesn't make it any safer or better that what is being done elsewhere. China and it's people are no more friends or enemies than your own Nation or people are. Until you understand who the real enemy is you cannot successfully fight them, and once you know who they really are you'll see there's no way of winning anyway. As Walt Kelly said in a 'Pogo' comic long ago "We have met the enemy, and he is us" :oops:

Phil
 
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Yeah a enemy's face are always well hidden, and many times man have lashed out after the wrong one.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us"

That gave me a deja vue moment, and true enough, that's from the battle of lake Erie in 1813 Where British naval ships was taken,,,,,,,,,,, this i did have to look up as my moment wasent that strong, just knew i heard it in relation to American history.
Was also reused in relation to that war in a far away Asian country that was not Korea.
 
Yeah a enemy's face are always well hidden, and many times man have lashed out after the wrong one.



That gave me a deja vue moment, and true enough, that's from the battle of lake Erie in 1813 Where British naval ships was taken,,,,,,,,,,, this i did have to look up as my moment wasent that strong, just knew i heard it in relation to American history.
Was also reused in relation to that war in a far away Asian country that was not Korea.
Not sure you have the right quote?

Battle of lake Erie in 1813: “We have met the enemy, and they are ours.”

has a different meaning...

"The American plan for the Niagara Front in 1813 was to recapture Detroit and invade Canada. In order to do so they had to control Lake Erie, which in turn depended on conquering Ontario. I have written British throughout this post because the ships were sailing under the British flag, but the majority of their crews were Canadians. "

Those Americans are always invading places, then they complain about the Chinese who have a long history of not invading anywhere! The great wall of China was built to avoid war by keeping the enemy out.
 
Hehe yeah i wonder if Trumps wall will last as long as the Chinese wall, and be visible from space with the naked eye :)

I think they have been eying Venezuela lately as a possible place to invade, that's just another hornet nest to stick your fingers into.
 
@Nigel I wouldn't be making that claim about China, as their last 50+ years has seen them take territory which most in the world believes did not belong to them. One need only to study what's going on in Tibet to see that and it's not the only place. And if any nation could be scored with imperialism and a history of wrongfully taking of lands and nations England would top that list- not that the US hasn't also done it too.

Nobody is innocent here- not you, not me, not Jokiin, not M Bastsa, and certainly no governments anywhere which by their very nature always want more of everything without much consideration of any related ethics or morality :( As individual people I think we're all pretty good and decent here but none of us are fighting tooth and nail against what is so wrong in all this which makes us part of the problem ourselves- "We" is everyone including me. I'm not sure what we can do about it, for if I could share a solution I'm certain we would all pull together to see it done, and do it in a way that would prevent it from happening again :cool: But AFAIK no such solution exists so there's not much we can do except to refuse to condone wrongful things wherever they are and to be the best people we can be individually in hopes that others will see and follow along with us. If there is any hope for humankind that is it, but seeing how so few will choose that course with us leads me to conclude that it's not going to ever happen :cry: We are all our own worst enemy, and only we can change that ;)

Phil
 
Hehe Denmark "just" got 2 pandas, probably in thank for smoothing the last Chinese visit over here, and illegally confiscate Tibetan flags from protesters along the route.
A most embarrassing and shameful moment in this Danes eyes, not least factoring in no one have been fired or reprimanded over that clearly unconstitutional mess.
China i am sure don't give Pandas to other countries that ask too many questions, and question asking are vital i think.
 
@Nigel I wouldn't be making that claim about China, as their last 50+ years has seen them take territory which most in the world believes did not belong to them. One need only to study what's going on in Tibet to see that and it's not the only place. And if any nation could be scored with imperialism and a history of wrongfully taking of lands and nations England would top that list- not that the US hasn't also done it too.

Nobody is innocent here- not you, not me, not Jokiin, not M Bastsa, and certainly no governments anywhere which by their very nature always want more of everything without much consideration of any related ethics or morality :( As individual people I think we're all pretty good and decent here but none of us are fighting tooth and nail against what is so wrong in all this which makes us part of the problem ourselves- "We" is everyone including me. I'm not sure what we can do about it, for if I could share a solution I'm certain we would all pull together to see it done, and do it in a way that would prevent it from happening again :cool: But AFAIK no such solution exists so there's not much we can do except to refuse to condone wrongful things wherever they are and to be the best people we can be individually in hopes that others will see and follow along with us. If there is any hope for humankind that is it, but seeing how so few will choose that course with us leads me to conclude that it's not going to ever happen :cry: We are all our own worst enemy, and only we can change that ;)

Phil
Unfortunately, due to our news media and various "human rights organisations", most people in the west do not know the history of Tibet - it became part of China in the first century, not through war, and has been ever since, even during the period that the British took over control as one of our trading expeditions, which like most of our "occupations" was done through a trading agreement, often not a very fair one in those days, and in the case of Tibet a rather violent one, but always done through agreement rather than assassination and destruction like the USA seems to favour.
 
Most people probably know Tibet from 2 things.
1: the tall mountain
2: the movie 7 years in Tibet with Brad Pitt

Seem like another pair of history's " elephant in a porcelain shop" nations had a thing or two to say in the history of Tibet around 1906. ;)

a treaty signed between the Qing dynasty and the British Empire in 1906, which reaffirmed the Chinese possession of Tibet after the British expedition to Tibet in 1903–1904. The British, for a fee from the Qing court, also agreed "not to annex Tibetan territory or to interfere in the administration of Tibet", while China engaged "not to permit any other foreign state to interfere with the territory or internal administration of Tibet".[1][2] This Convention succeeded the Treaty of Lhasa signed between Tibet and the British Empire in 1904.

wiki smarts :rolleyes:
 
Presumably a lot of USA companies have a connection with one or other of the US political parties too, doesn't mean it is for espionage reasons!
I believe the coal miners were supporting Trump, because it was in their interest to do so. In China, if you want to have some political influence in the same way that the USA coal minors have achieved then there is only one political party worth supporting - the Communist party. It is also true that a lot of companies are part owned by the government in some way, but that is for historical reasons, not for espionage, at one time all Chinese companies were 100% state owned, but that was a long time ago now.


You can blame the World Trade Organisation (WTO) for that, it is all done under WTO rules, over which the USA had a lot of influence, it is about time those rules were changed since the status of China in the world has changed hugely since the rules were drawn up.


The Chinese economy is definitely not a communist system these days!
It is proven that communist party members are on the boards of chinese companies, and even chinese college student spy for the CCP! No such proven intellectual theft machinery in American business dealings!! Chinese business structure for western companies partnering with local chinese have intellectual property theft built in And the CCP is everywhere in chinese society. Where have you been out of touch?
 
It is proven that communist party members are on the boards of chinese companies, and even chinese college student spy for the CCP! No such proven intellectual theft machinery in American business dealings!! Chinese business structure for western companies partnering with local chinese have intellectual property theft built in And the CCP is everywhere in chinese society. Where have you been out of touch?
I'm sure there are a lot of Democratic and Republican party members on the boards of the top USA companies too - so what!
The IP sharing rules for Chinese-foreign partnerships is set out by World Trade Organisation rules, USA is probably more at fault for that than China!
 
@Nigel I wouldn't be making that claim about China, as their last 50+ years has seen them take territory which most in the world believes did not belong to them. One need only to study what's going on in Tibet to see that and it's not the only place. And if any nation could be scored with imperialism and a history of wrongfully taking of lands and nations England would top that list- not that the US hasn't also done it too.

Nobody is innocent here- not you, not me, not Jokiin, not M Bastsa, and certainly no governments anywhere which by their very nature always want more of everything without much consideration of any related ethics or morality :( As individual people I think we're all pretty good and decent here but none of us are fighting tooth and nail against what is so wrong in all this which makes us part of the problem ourselves- "We" is everyone including me. I'm not sure what we can do about it, for if I could share a solution I'm certain we would all pull together to see it done, and do it in a way that would prevent it from happening again :cool: But AFAIK no such solution exists so there's not much we can do except to refuse to condone wrongful things wherever they are and to be the best people we can be individually in hopes that others will see and follow along with us. If there is any hope for humankind that is it, but seeing how so few will choose that course with us leads me to conclude that it's not going to ever happen :cry: We are all our own worst enemy, and only we can change that ;)

Phil
The last 30 years, China is richer and stronger. China is claiming back it's own territories that Allies have maliciously given to other countries after WW2. The island ln South China sea claimed by Japan and "free Tibet" etc.

 
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TDC have just said that they have dropped Huawei in favor of Ericsson for their 5G network.
 
I'm sure that low-light pic was a little bit "rigged" like night driving vids from cheap dashcam manufacturers, but that is mighty impressive. I did see where it uses long exposure times to help achieve this which means it's not directly transferable to dashcams due to motion blurring, but the multi sensor concept could be.

Phi;
 
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