Great Dashcam?

[c4rc4m]

This is more of a curiosity than a serious suggestion, just because it would take someone with a lot of money and prepared to take a lot of risk to bring it to fruition. However, for a long time I've been extolling the virtues of a large sensor.

Well it seems someone has also had the same idea in the Drone World, namely the manufacturer, Yuneec (I believe the 2nd biggest behind DJI), who've developed a camera called the C23 based on a 1" sensor.

What makes this so special, is that I've seen it reported that it may use components from the Panasonic GH4, which is an excellent performing camera, especially in low light. Whereas I can't verify that, it makes for an interesting proposition / project for someone very rich! The only restriction I can see is the ISO appears to have been locked at 8,000 max. |

It's a $899 / £899 camera which disappoints on pricing from our POV, although given that it comes with a motorised gimbal, I'm going to guess theres a good few hundred $ / £ in the gimbal which probably means that technically the camera alone could be a lot less. There are going to be issues, with adapting such a camera for dashcam use, namely power supply, file writing and mount to name but 3. However, the results are amazing and in my opinion speak wonders for the use of a large high resolution sensor.

Camera specs here: https://www.yuneec.com/en_GB/accessories/cameras/c23/overview.html

Youtube Video here (not the poster reports some colour / saturation adjustment in post editing):

Highly impressive picture though if this is typical:

 

[jokiin]

any idea what sensor they are using?

 

[SawMaster]

I'd think the gimbal would cost them 200 quid max, leaving us with a $700 cam which few can afford. Those who do have the requisite nous will be wanting a 2-channel cam for that price throwing yet another roadblock up.

I do think that a larger sensor is a good way to move forward as long as we can keep the cam size minimal. Package this as a dual-remote with pre-buffering and Blackvue will be done for in mere months no matter it's cost.

Phil

 

[c4rc4m]

any idea what sensor they are using?

If it's Panasonic and from the GH4, then I believe it may be proprietary. I've heard it said that Panasonic when they develop sensors keep the best ones for their own cameras. Obviously that is just rumour and I cannot verify that. However, if Yuneec have got their hands on the GH4 sensor, then maybe now the GH5 is out, it may indicate Panasonic may be more receptive to making the GH4 available.

This is a GH4 video. Although number plates still aren't readable at night, that may be down to the ISO it's set to and the lens used. Overall though, I personally find the picture quite impressive in lower light. Remember as well this is down scaled to 1080P from 4K. The detail in the 4K drone vid was impressive albeit in mostly good lighting coniditons.

 

[jokiin]

if it's 1 inch and does 4k res then the pixel size still may be a touch small to expect really good low light performance, I've seen 1 inch sensors that do great low light but the sensor was only 720p

 

[kamkar]

Would be nice with a 4 in 1 binning, for say 1440p low light footage.
Really digging these 1" sensors popping up in this and that, but still out of my price range, or should i say out of what i would pay for the amount and level of filming i do.
Maybe before i kick the bucket i can get one, maybe steam my last breaths in glorious 8K

 

[Nigel]

if it's 1 inch and does 4k res then the pixel size still may be a touch small to expect really good low light performance, I've seen 1 inch sensors that do great low light but the sensor was only 720p

Now that our dashcam processors can manage multiple sensors, putting 2 IMX291 Starvis sensors side by side would give bigger pixels than a 1" sensor and 4K resolution in width, presumably for a lot less cost...

 

[jokiin]

Now that our dashcam processors can manage multiple sensors, putting 2 IMX291 Starvis sensors side by side would give bigger pixels than a 1" sensor and 4K resolution in width, presumably for a lot less cost...

if you ran them side by side like that you would probably use one regular lens and one zoom lens to get the best of both

 

[Nigel]

if you ran them side by side like that you would probably use one regular lens and one zoom lens to get the best of both

If you used the same lens type on both, each lens would have half the horizontal field of view so would already be 2x zoom.
While one wide and one narrow would mean the centre section would be covered by both sensors which would be a waste of sensor area.

 

[kamkar]

I hear about phones with upwards of 5 cameras on the back, about dashcams did something about that
Not to mentions REDs camera phone.

 

[Nigel]

I hear about phones with upwards of 5 cameras on the back, about dashcams did something about that
Not to mentions REDs camera phone.

Yes, 3 front cameras would be better since that would effectively give 3x zoom and would avoid having a join line in the centre, then you could add another 2 either side to give a 180 degree view including seeing out the side windows at junctions, that would make up your 5.

 

[jokiin]

If you used the same lens type on both, each lens would have half the horizontal field of view so would already be 2x zoom.
While one wide and one narrow would mean the centre section would be covered by both sensors which would be a waste of sensor area.

I'm not following your logic on this one

 

[c4rc4m]

I'm not following your logic on this one

I think he's suggesting stitching the pictures together, so each sensor records slightly more than 1/2 of the picture and the firmware then joins them by discarding the overlapping pixels and recording the image as one.

 

[c4rc4m]

I hear about phones with upwards of 5 cameras on the back, about dashcams did something about that
Not to mentions REDs camera phone.

Many mid range phones are now using 3 cameras - 1 front and 2 back. With the back 1 records colour whilst the other B&W. From memory, the B&W helps with contrast / WDR, although it can be used on it's own as a B&W camera. These phones are also using AI. It's worth noting though, that the small sensors mean most are poor in low light.

I Kamkar's suggestion of using the trick that can be done with sensors whereby you group the pixels together in low light at the cost of resolution to increase the sensitivity could be interesting.

 

[Nigel]

I'm not following your logic on this one

If a normal dashcam has a lens with 140° horizontal field of view and a 1080 sensor, the dual lens camera has two lenses side by side each with 140/2 = 70° horizontal field of view and a 1080 sensor, the left one provides the left half of the 4K image, the right one provides the right half of the 4K image, a 1080 sensor has enough pixels to provide an image half the width of 4K so you get true 4K width in total, and since they are using 70° FOV lenses they have 2x the zoom of a standard 140° lens.

You only get half the height, but that is fine for a dashcam, we don't need to record those meteors in the sky or the front/dash of our own cars.

There is a small problem with alignment and distortion correction, and like c4rc4m suggests, a few pixels will get lost in the join, but since the lenses/sensors are physically joined it is simple to map them together, no need for complex stitching to work out the alignment since the alignment is fixed and with a 70° lens there will not be much fisheye compared to the 140° lenses we are used to so only minor distortion correction is needed.

You can use relatively cheap sensors and lenses compared to 1" sensors, there is only half the silicon and 1/4 of the glass needed.

 

[jokiin]

an interesting concept

 

[Nigel]

an interesting concept

Yes, but I expect that it will stay a concept since it would be of little use for most cameras due to things falling into a parallax hole between the lenses when they get too close! Probably OK with a dashcam because nothing should get closer than the front of the car, although with a short bonnet if you got really close to the car in front then the problem could show up with letters disappearing from the number plate of the car in front which wouldn't be too good on a dashcam meant to record number plates!

Maybe the answer is for Sony to produce some half height 4K sensors with pixels a similar size to the IMX291, should be half the cost for the silicon but would still need a lot more glass in the lens. Presumably there will be demand for a super wide angle high sensitivity and dynamic range sensor, I doubt we are all going to have to change to use 16:9 aspect ratio rear view mirrors when electronic mirrors become the norm.

 

[kamkar]

If things get a little weird, then i must refer to the vertical photo / video syndrome, and say at least coming potential customers can make do with a large degree of optical WTH.

In regard to future and worth while 4K cameras i think that the 4K getting binned up to some lesser resolution for night performance are a must, or some secret new sauce must be poured over existing sensors to make then perform better in low light.
I know personally i would not mind a lesser than 4K resolution for night performance, as long as it stay over 1080p i am fine, but 1440p would be really nice i think.
But binning pixels i think are the go to solution for now, but of course if the footage could remain 4K for night recording that would be best, but i cant see that happening.

The B&W camera deployed by phone cameras to aid with some things are also interesting, but i am not sure we will see a feature like that in the SOCs makers seem to go for, for use in dashcams.

 

[jokiin]

Yes, but I expect that it will stay a concept since it would be of little use for most cameras due to things falling into a parallax hole between the lenses when they get too close! Probably OK with a dashcam because nothing should get closer than the front of the car, although with a short bonnet if you got really close to the car in front then the problem could show up with letters disappearing from the number plate of the car in front which wouldn't be too good on a dashcam meant to record number plates!

Maybe the answer is for Sony to produce some half height 4K sensors with pixels a similar size to the IMX291, should be half the cost for the silicon but would still need a lot more glass in the lens. Presumably there will be demand for a super wide angle high sensitivity and dynamic range sensor, I doubt we are all going to have to change to use 16:9 aspect ratio rear view mirrors when electronic mirrors become the norm.

the bigger challenge right now would be the software, the images need to be stitched together and playback may also present some challenges

 

[Mtz]

based on a 1" sensor.

This step is expected to be done from companies like Blackvue or Thinkware just because their cameras are expensive right now and their customers can pay any price for a high end camera. If a company like DJI will start tomorrow to make dashcams they will become market leaders from their first model. They have the vision and courage to look further than others, like they did with their drones. Look how many people are buying their over $1000 drones and think how much time are using them the people. Few minutes/week/month? 4-5 months/year? Market is full of $150 drones and DJI is still doing great.
Other dashcam companies are thinking only to the final price which is too high and they are thinking will not sell because of price. Using an 1" sensor is more a free advertising for the first brand which will use it. Instead to pay on advertising invest in a product which will advertise itself and will bring profit. A win-win situation. But after 5-10 companies will release such dashcam for the new comes will be not an affair anymore. This is about opportunity and vision.

enjoy,
Mtz