Just Germany being Germany

Discussion in 'Legal Questions' started by Tobi@s, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Tobi@s

    Tobi@s Well-Known Member App Developer

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    I think we are getting closer to a dashcam ban in Germany...

    A woman in Germany has to pay €150 and her evidence is not recognised by court because she was recording a public road in her parked car with a dashcam.

    A 52 year old woman installed a front/rear facing dashcam in her car to protect it from hit and run accidents. The dashcam worked as expected and recorded a car that bumped hers and left the scene. After handing in the footage to the local police, she got a fine which she rejected because there where no identifiable faces/people inside - only useful information was the anonymous license plate.

    So she took the case to court (Amtsgericht München) and lost again: The right of informational self-determination of the unknowingly recorded people (their cars in this case) outweighs the interests of a single person (the woman with the damaged car). The judge also said: "It is intolerable that 80 million citizens record random situations just to be able to maybe solve a crime"
    The judgement is not final, yet.

    The quoted sentence above has also been said by a police officer who randomly checked my license and saw my dashcams afterwards. I think Germany takes privacy way too serious, but thats just my two cents.

    Source: https://www.heise.de/newsticker/mel...se-wegen-Dashcam-Einsatz-im-Auto-3848679.html
     
  2. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    Does the average German person agree with the law, or do they think that people should be free to use dashcams and use them as evidence if they want?
     
  3. jeez123

    jeez123 Active Member

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    Geeez......
     
  4. Tobi@s

    Tobi@s Well-Known Member App Developer

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    I think the average person doesn't care - unfortunately
     
  5. DT MI

    DT MI Well-Known Member

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    So, if I understand this correctly in Germany it's illegal (i.e. a crime) to collect evidence that can solve a crime?!?!?! :(:confused::cry::banghead:

    If I have a dash cam and record another person with a dash cam who is recording me, and the only evidence is the video from both cameras, who is the criminal?
     
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  6. Module 79L

    Module 79L Well-Known Member

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    What is this? Some South-American dictatorship? :confused::mad:
    Is this based on any law (if I remember correctly, in a democracy laws must be sensible) or it's only the judge's opinion? Because if it's just an opinion it's even worse.
     
  7. Tobi@s

    Tobi@s Well-Known Member App Developer

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    Collecting evidence of course is not. But the issue is that you record all people, even if they did nothing illegal. And since (data)privacy is a big thing in Germany, everyone has the right to know what happens with their data and to prevent the data collection. But you cannot prevent random dashcams/cctv/... from recording you if its happening in a public place.
    In Germany you must not record other people without their consent. There are some exceptions indeed, for example you don't need the consent if you are in a generally crowded place where it is common that other people will take photos (sights, concerts, ...)

    The quoted sentence is not based on any law - maybe "intolerable" is a bad translation. The german original quote sounds like "It is not acceptable, that everyone records ...". Fortunately the judgement is not final, yet.
     
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  8. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    Whatever the final judgement is, the problem will occur again more and more frequently until the law has to be changed, it's just a question of how long "Just Germany being Germany" will continue!
     
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  9. Tobi@s

    Tobi@s Well-Known Member App Developer

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    Luckily many local courts have decided to accept the footage for now. But this will continue until they change the law to explicitely prohibit or allow them, yup..
     
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  10. DT MI

    DT MI Well-Known Member

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    That appears to be inconsistent with the facts in your original post...

    "A 52 year old woman installed a front/rear facing dashcam in her car to protect it from hit and run accidents. The dashcam worked as expected and recorded a car that bumped hers and left the scene. After handing in the footage to the local police, she got a fine which she rejected because there where no identifiable faces/people inside - only useful information was the anonymous license plate.

    So she took the case to court (Amtsgericht München) and lost again: The right of informational self-determination of the unknowingly recorded people (their cars in this case) outweighs the interests of a single person (the woman with the damaged car)..."


    ...where the victim of the hit and run whose car was, presumably, in a public place was fined for her actions.
     
  11. Tobi@s

    Tobi@s Well-Known Member App Developer

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    Yes she got fined because of the dashcam which records other people without their consent in a public place. Did I phrase that inconsistently? I don't get it, sorry :D
     
  12. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    What I don't understand is why "her evidence is not recognised by court"? Just because she did something illegal in obtaining the evidence doesn't mean that the evidence isn't valid evidence! All valid evidence should be considered in making a court decision, the more evidence the safer the decision.
     
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  13. Village Idiot

    Village Idiot New Member

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    If the use of a dash cam is illegal, can this illegality be extended to the use of security cams inside or outside buildings (either businesses or your home)? How about all the other places people find to put a camera? Either make all of them legal or all of them illegal. Police don't like them because they record Police doing and saying things that they aren't supposed to, or allowed to by law. Remember the Rodney King case in California several years ago, when the Police took turns beating the crap out of him? If somebody had not had a video camera and filmed it, there would have been no investigation and the Police would have gotten away with it..............again.

    And before you burn me, look at my username.
     
  14. Village Idiot

    Village Idiot New Member

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    Evidence is illegal and inadmissible in court because laws favor criminals, not victims.
     
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  15. DT MI

    DT MI Well-Known Member

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    I understood what you said, I just cannot understand the 'logic' (or more accurately the 'illogic') of the law/judge. The real criminal (hit and run driver) gets away and the victim in that event now becomes a criminal for proving the crime happened. :eek: :banghead:

    A world class science fiction writer could not come up with anything more bizarre... :rolleyes:
     
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  16. sone983

    sone983 Active Member

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    Germans are inventing hot water,how people in my country are used to say. They dont allow to record citizens which doesnt doing anything illegal,on the other hand they are occupied by USA,CIA,NSA and all others 3-letter-services. They are full of s..t. And their domestic inteligent services are recording,watching people which are persons of interest to them to prevent some possible terrorist attacks and similar acts.
     
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  17. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    I feel that it is too restrictive a law, but it is not for me to tell someone else how they should be living. Nor is it proper for me to judge social standards where I do not live. I am, however entitled to my opinion just the same as everyone else ;)

    Phil
     
  18. Tobi@s

    Tobi@s Well-Known Member App Developer

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    Yes it can. This is not restricted to dashcams. In Germany you are not allowed to monitor public places as a privat citizen. If you have a camera in your driveway it must not record the street. You also have to install a camera warning sign so other people know you are recording and can avoid your driveway if they dont agree with that. Same applies to public stores in the cities. They also have to install a warning sign so you can avoid them and can choose to not be recorded.
     
  19. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    Probably a perfectly reasonable law when it was introduced, but times change and laws have to change with them.

    Some countries change faster than others, it's not long since the German government discovered the internet!
     
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  20. sone983

    sone983 Active Member

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    All of you probably heard about Pink Panther gang ( international jewelry thieves ) most of them are from my country, some of them are from city I live in. I know some of those young man's who are wannabe like those Pink Panther's, they robbing jewelry stores mostly in Germany,Austria,Italy and rest of the Europe countries. Some of those guys which knows and have knowledge in that kind of stuff told me there are security cams in that kind of stores-shops and there are one door from outside leading you in little hallway-foyer where all people entering been recorded with few security cams in few angles and then you have to ring some kind of bell-intercom first then people which work in store let you in through second door. There are also cameras pointing to shopwindows which are recording people which just go by shop and dont even stop to see whats in shopwindow or shop..... My point is...how is all of this different than a dashcam recorded video???

    Sent from my CUBOT MAX using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2017
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