Lens APERTURE F1.6 vs F2.8 ? Mobius vs LS300W vs Panorama2 Panorama II

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niko

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For equally fair comparison i set all 4 dash cams EV on "0".
If changing EV on one dash cam to lets say +2, then I would had to change it to +2 on all of them for equal comparison.
Hope you know what I mean.

Still, I tried playing with EV on Mobius and Ls300w, but it did not gave that much better result to be comparable with Panorama2. I guess it all comes to CMOS differences, Sony Exmor vs AR0330 and of course firmware.
 

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Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess it all comes to CMOS differences, Sony Exmor vs AR0330 and of course firmware.

I think the processor is superior as well, you are correct though that the Exmor has an edge over the Aptina, firmware though can make a world of difference, the best components are no use without good firmware
 

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I think the processor is superior as well, you are correct though that the Exmor has an edge over the Aptina, firmware though can make a world of difference, the best components are no use without good firmware

I'm not sure if the Exmor is better in real situations than the Aptina sensor.
If I look for instance at the quality of the image (during daytime) of the Panorama 2, I see much pixelation where there are roads with trees. It could be the firmware that makes the difference, but I don't see an advantage of the Exmor over the Aptina sensor, that we have in our dashcam.

About nighttime video quality, I think it is also very important to have sharp images and to see the license plates as good as possible.
I made a video where you can see what I mean:
Resolution on 1080P
 
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I'm not sure if the Exmor is better in real situations than the Aptina sensor.
If I look for instance at the quality of the image (during daytime) of the Panorama 2, I see much pixelation where there are roads with trees. It could be the firmware that makes the difference, but I don't see an advantage of the Exmor over the Aptina sensor, that we have in our dashcam.

About nighttime video quality, I think it is also very important to have sharp images and to see the license plates as good as possible.
I made a video where you can see what I mean:
Resolution on 1080P

Reading license plates at night or day is very important.
Video above, dash camera has narrower lens angle ( this is pros and cons, depending on how you look at this ), but shows nice clear license plate number, however let's don't forget that at night reading non-white background license plates gives different result. Yellow background "absorbs" rear moving car lights. If front moving car license plates would be on the white background, the light would bounce back and reading would not be that sharp ( slightly fuzzy ). Also we don't know if car was using standard bulbs or Xenon / HID, - this also affects a lot how light bounces back from front moving car license plate.

I wrote about it here:
Reading License Plates at Night. HID / Xenon, standard bulbs
http://dashcamtalk.com/forum/index....ght-hid-xenon-standard-bulbs.1444/#post-14704

Best true way to determine what is good and what is not is to put to the test two products side by side, because in different environments results can be different.
Taiwan Vacron has strong reputation and I am sure DJ Electronics new custom ordered dash camera could bring nice surprises to the dash camera market, but it is early to say until not tested.
I wish I could test that new dash camera side by side with all other dash cameras I have in hand, so only then results can be truly comparable. Of course a lot comes to a price. Fair way to judge two products is if they are from nearby price range ( +/- 10-15 % ).

Regarding CMOS sensors Sony Exmor it is clear that its superior than AR0330 ( check table below )

Regarding some pixelaratin on day time darker areas ( trees ), I guess it's come to two factors:

1. bit-rate 12Mbps vs 15mbps on DOD LS300W.
2. Panorama2 has much wider lens view angle. For the same amount of video recording 1920 x 1080 pixels it covers much wider field of view / recording than LS300W, - thats why there are some time pixeleration on darker areas of trees. I guess for ultra wide FOV lenses best is to use Super FullHD resolution CMOS sensors, like New G6000 A7 uses ( 2304 x 1296 ).

Below is table of Sony Exmor vs Aptina AR0330 specifications.

SOny Exmor vs Aptina AR0330.jpg


I think most important figures here are:
1. individual pixel size,
2. dynamic range,
3. S/N signal / noice.
In all those 3 parameters Sony Exmor exceeds Aptina, but of course it is not fair to judge them, because they are from totally different price ranges.
As previously mentioned, - I think fair judgement can be done between products which has nearby price range ( +/- 10-15% )
 
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Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
if all else is equal, lens, processor, firmware then the Sony will outdo the Aptina, it does have a small advantage over the Aptina in performance, it is proportionally much more expensive though and is hard to justify the expense compared to the available gains
 

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Thank you Niko!

You make much work to explain your vision to it. I must say, I admire your efforts.
I wish I had the time to do something like that, but I haven't. Too bad!

First to correct a mistake; our "own brand" camera is not made or designed by Vacron! We indeed have now (very recently) distribution of Vacron for the BeNeLux, but this for us designed camera is from another Taiwanese manufacturer.
Addition: All Vacron dashcams have capacitors and no battery. Our own dashcam has a battery.

I see the specs in the table from the Sony Exmor and the Aptina sensors. But with all kind of specs from the manufacturer, it's not a proof of the real quality.
If you look at the size of CMOS and the resolution of the Aptina, than this enormous difference in Dynamic range and S/N with the Sony Exmor can't be real.
Such a big difference would be result in a perfect image with the Sony Exmor and a very poor image with the Aptina sensor. We both know that's not the case....

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure in a side to side comparison, that the Sony Exmor would perform better.
Unfortunally, I can't compare both dashcams, because I don't have the Panorama 2....

I can only suggest, look at some samples of both cameras on YouTube (I assume YouTube don't handle my uploads better than to others...) and judge for yourselve.
 
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Thank you Niko!

You make much work to explain your vision to it. I must say, I admire your efforts.
I wish I had the time to do something like that, but I haven't. Too bad!

First to correct a mistake; our "own brand" camera is not made or designed by Vacron! We indeed have now (very recently) distribution of Vacron for the BeNeLux, but this for us designed camera is from another Taiwanese manufacturer.
Addition: All Vacron dashcams have capacitors and no battery. Our own dashcam has a battery.

I see the specs in the table from the Sony Exmor and the Aptina sensors. But with all kind of specs from the manufacturer, it's not a proof of the real quality.
If you look at the size of CMOS and the resolution of the Aptina, than this enormous difference in Dynamic range and S/N with the Sony Exmor can't be real.
Such a big difference would be result in a perfect image with the Sony Exmor and a very poor image with the Aptina sensor. We both know that's not the case....

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure in a side to side comparison, that the Sony Exmor would perform better.
Unfortunally, I can't compare both dashcams, because I don't have the Panorama 2....

I can only suggest, look at some samples of both cameras on YouTube (I assume YouTube don't handle my uploads better than to others...) and judge for yourselve.

Much higher resolution of Aptina ( CMOS "Megapixels"), or ANY other dash camera "super"-high resolution dose not give an advantage for 1080p video recordings. It actually can be a disadvantage. Everything what is above 2.1Mpix is playing bad role for same size CMOS sensor. You may have 10Mpix CMOS 1/3" CMOS, but for 1080p video recording it will use only 2.073 Mpix cmos sensor area ( 1920 x 1080p = 2'073'600, or 1/5 part of 10Mpix sensor, rest 80% of that 10Mpix sensor will be useless.
If we take Aptina 1/3" CMOS = 3.5Mpix and Sony Exmor 1/2.8" CMOS 2.4Mpix, - in overall size they are fairly same, but because Aptina has 3.5Mpix, - therefor each pixel is much smaller than Sony Exmor. ( Aptina 2.2µm vs Sony Exmor 2.8µm ), - there for bigger pixel "catches" more light, - thats why Sony Exmor is capable of better night vision recording.

Regarding Youtube videos, - I never trusted them. They can give only basic overview, but for fair judgement need RAW video files and side by side tests, so if you think in some stage you can provide me a sample of your new dash cam for full unbiased review, then I would be happy to do that.

I totally agree @ your " ... But with all kind of specs from the manufacturer, it's not a proof of the real quality. ",
- this is exactly what about this thread. I tried to make a point on example of lens aperture. Not always a bad figure shows real result and some time it can be opposite: "Nice" numbers on the paper can provide poor result in real life. So it is all about the real life experience.
 

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Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
looking at some side by side video of Aptina v Exmor on large screen display (which I have done) with all else being equal, to my eye I felt the Sony had an edge, there's a significant upcost though to go from Aptina to Exmor which I don't feel is a justifiable expense for the minor advantage, we will be using Ar0330 in most of our models for the forseable future at least
 
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looking at some side by side video of Aptina v Exmor on large screen display (which I have done) with all else being equal, to my eye I felt the Sony had an edge, there's a significant upcost though to go from Aptina to Exmor which I don't feel is a justifiable expense for the minor advantage, we will be using Ar0330 in most of our models for the forseable future at least

For me personally most important in dash camera is it can read car numberplates at night from first left and first right lane and of course from the center lane of front moving car as well from 2 car lenghth distance away. Thats would be enough for me to provide vital info to authorities in case i need to do so.
As long as any product will do that, - i am happy and i dont mind if its aptina or sony or omnivision.
 

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I believe that the truth is somewhere at the middle... Indubitably Exmor is better in low light, but... I think that there is a little trick in firmware, too. Let me explain: in all the videos I saw there is clipping on highlights (just look at the clouds). More than that, the framerate (I saw in a clip taken in a cloudy day) is decreasing, suggesting a (+) exposure compensation, the result beeing a bigger exposure time. So, the suggestion of some friends to experiment with an increasing EV on Aptina cameras will be fair enough... My 2 cents. ;)

PS> don't forget that in photography (where I know more than in dashcam domain) the DXOmark shows big-bigger scores for Nikon (using Sony sensors) compared with Canon. In reality, the differences are tiny, because what's written on the paper is not the real performance.


vs.

Look at the framerate:

 
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the framerate (I saw in a clip taken in a cloudy day) is decreasing,

Look at the framerate:


Actual frame rate on all 3 tested dash cameras is 30FPS, not more, not less, exact 30Fps.
Video editing software makes it's own "adjustments", for some reasons in that clip of 3 videos put together Panorama2 had visual effect of "less" FPS ( you right ), something like youtube decreases / compresses original files quality. In reality it's 30Fps.
I have added RAW video files of all 3 dash cams. If you download them, - you see 30Fps.
 

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I don't trust the F1.6 aperture that the Mobius claims to have, given its poor low-light performance.
 

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less brightness equals better sharpness but less visibility and brightness equals better visivilidad but more artifacts.
 

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I have added RAW video files of all 3 dash cams. If you download them, - you see 30Fps.

Please give me the link for download.
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On the other hand, I prefer a sensor who "see" what the human eye can see in visible light, not one who deform the reality. For authentical night vision there are specialized cameras, using powerful infrared sensors.
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I have a fake K2000 whose videos have (according to MediaInfo) 30 fps, but, in reality, visibly doesn't. Maybe it's another hidden trick somewhere.
 
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I don't trust the F1.6 aperture that the Mobius claims to have, given its poor low-light performance.

I think aperture and all other hardware related aspects on mobius are fine. It's just the matter of firmware tune up to get good night video recording.
 
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less brightness equals better sharpness but less visibility and brightness equals better visivilidad but more artifacts.

you have a point. Firmware should all in balance, like dod ls300w has it done. SO, mobius has a potential. Just matter of firmware tune up .
 
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Please give me the link for download.
---------
On the other hand, I prefer a sensor who "see" what the human eye can see in visible light, not one who deform the reality. For authentical night vision there are specialized cameras, using powerful infrared sensors.
---------
I have a fake K2000 whose videos have (according to MediaInfo) 30 fps, but, in reality, visibly doesn't. Maybe it's another hidden trick somewhere.

For raw video files check first page, first post.
 

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Thanks!
You're right. There are 30 fps, but in high contrast scenes there is huge clipping on highlights, suggesting positive exposure correction OR weak dynamic range, which is contradicted by sensor specifications (see dynamic range). I believe that similar (but not same) results can be reached using +EV on other cameras. Overall the Exxmor sensor IS better, but only just. The blueish tint (on Powerucc) comes from a bad white balance management.

PS: having all those cameras, you could verify this hypothesis with +EV, by testing an Aptina WDR camera.
 
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More than that, Powerucc has a lot of Chroma Noise, suggesting, IMHO, high ISO usage, that means electrical amplification of the sensor (of the useful signal, but also of the noise). The sharpness is decreasing when ISO is increasing, as in photo. In right I simulated a slight increasing of EV.

 
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Thanks!
You're right. There are 30 fps, but in high contrast scenes there is huge clipping on highlights, suggesting positive exposure correction OR weak dynamic range, which is contradicted by sensor specifications (see dynamic range). I believe that similar (but not same) results can be reached using +EV on other cameras. Overall the Exxmor sensor IS better, but only just. The blueish tint (on Powerucc) comes from a bad white balance management.

PS: having all those cameras, you could verify this hypothesis with +EV, by testing an Aptina WDR camera.
Your conclusions are correct.
Big challenge all dash cams having today is finding perfect AWB and EV default value.
Adjusting values to + or - you win in one light conditions / situation, but losing on other. From mobius vs ls300w we can see that. Mobius is better at day but losing at night. Ls300w is oposite. Panorama2 is somewhere in the middle.
Manually adjusting EV, AWB is not practical. Few times per day adjusting manually is not convenient and pain in the .....
Maybe like Vico TF2+ has vico sceduke would be some solution.
At the moment there is no dash cam out there that would satisfy fully 100% our needs ( and I think there never gonna be one for all needs dash cam ),so buyer has to evaluate his priorities and chose what best suits his needs.
 
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