Li-Ion Battery to power cam

dc9mm

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Has anyone tried using lithium ion battery pack with Pass Through technology to power there A119 V3 ? My friend with a different brand camera does it this way. No drain on his car battery and when his car is running it charges the battery back up while also keeping his cam powered. The battery has to have Pass Through Tech to do this.

My suv has 2 usb ports that are always powered on they can charge up to 2 amp rate, but then drain car battery so no go. . My Cigarette lighter (still called this?) is 12 volts and stays powered on for about 20 minutes then turns itself off. I dont want to use the Direct Wire Kit as I dont wan to drain my cars battery . Yes I know it has built in voltage cutoff still dont want to drain car battery .

BUT the question then comes does it know how to go into Park Mode if it always has power from battery I would put in. I have read here some say yes by it knowing it hasn't moved for 5 minutes others here say its unreliable and one guy posted just set it for Motion detection with Park Mode turned off BUT it manual it says

Quote "Do not turn on ‘Motion Detection’ unless your vehicle is parked.
If ‘Motion Detection’ is enabled while driving, the camera may
not record continuously." End quote.

If I was going to use Park Mode I would want it to buffer 15 seconds before it see's motion or G force impact then right to SD card. I THINK it can do that?

So I kinda would like the Park Mode Function but if it HAS to use the Hard Wire Kit I guess I will live without it. If that's the case I will just plug it into lighter 12 volt source and cam will turn off when car shuts off power to lighter at 20 minutes.

Oh havent yet received cam I got it off amazon and it says it includes GPS so I assume it has that extra GPS module? This one https://www.amazon.com/gp/B07SRQH4R7
 
If it has GPS and no HK3 hardwire kit, then it will enter park mode after 5 minutes of no movement on the GPS, and then leave park mode when you reach 6mph.
(Not sure if those figures are correct for the current official release of firmware.)

The problem with the passthrough is:
1. Some power banks will turn power off temporarily as they switch from battery power to supplied power which can confuse the camera causing it to shut down.
2. Charging speed is typically too slow, a standard charge rate for a powerbank is about 10W, you need more like 40W for 24 hour coverage.

The A119 seems pretty good with problem 1 and will normally sort itself out, but the best powerbanks have a UPS feature that removes the problem.

You can get power banks with fast charge, an A119 will use about 40 Wh in 24 hours, so if your powerbank has a charge rate of 40 watts then you will need an hour to store 24 hours of power, if you drive 2 half hour journeys per day then that is enough for the remaining 23 hours. Note that a fast charge powerbank will need a fast charge power adaptor to supply it, and although a 10,000 mAh powerbank may store enough power, you will need a 20,000 mAh powerbank for it to charge fast enough since the charge slows down considerably when they are 80% full.
 
Yes a 20000 mAh battery was the plan . this battery https://www.amazon.com/gp/B0816BGCJRI have to talk to friend who has this battery setup. I know my Cig lighter fuse on my car is a 20 amp one. So it should handle that no problem. I think I would drive the car enough on average to keep the battery charged up. I like this idea better than drain my cars battery. My car battery goes dead I could actually be stuck inside of the car. The locks are ONLY electric no manual lock in new car. If electric locks fail iam locked inside. I dont like it but that is how it is.

I think all cars should have a manual locks inside as a safety thing but I digress.

Thank you for the reply.
 
Looks OK at first sight, but unless someone has tried that particular model, it is impossible to be sure.


A couple of points, mainly for other readers:

Always check a powerbank's input watts, they often hide that in the specification and state the output, just because it will charge your phone fast does not mean you can charge the powerbank fast.

When looking for a charger for the powerbank, if it is a multi-output charger, check the watts for individual outputs, the total is not what is important.

I think all cars should have a manual locks inside as a safety thing but I digress.
I would expect that to be a legal requirement, there has to be a way out without breaking the glass!
 
Looks OK at first sight, but unless someone has tried that particular model, it is impossible to be sure.


A couple of points, mainly for other readers:

Always check a powerbank's input watts, they often hide that in the specification and state the output, just because it will charge your phone fast does not mean you can charge the powerbank fast.

When looking for a charger for the powerbank, if it is a multi-output charger, check the watts for individual outputs, the total is not what is important.


I would expect that to be a legal requirement, there has to be a way out without breaking the glass!
None that I can find. Breaking of glass seems to be the only option. I didn't even notice that it had no manual locks inside till a few weeks after I bought new SUV. I need to buy one of those things to break the glass. just i case.

I will check with my friend who has been using this setup over a year now on exactly which battery he bought and what he uses to charge it. The battery he bought was same brand I linked to above. His vehicle is a Ford F150 not sure what brand dashcam his is its a dual camera one.

Thanks again for the reply.
 
@dc9mm, Very few power banks on the market have true Pass-through-charging circuitry built into them. The RAVpower you linked to is not one of them. In fact, unless the company specifically states that a power bank has pass-through-charging you should assume that it doesn't. While you can get away with pass-through-charging some power banks occasionally, it is not a good practice and should never be done full time if the power bank doesn't have the proper circuitry. You risk damaging the power bank and the device you are charging or operating with it.

Zendure is one of the few companies that produces power banks with true pass-through-charging as a feature. They are not cheap but something like that is really more of what you need to accomplish what you have in mind.

Here is an example of one of Zendure's larger, more versatile models. (multi-voltage output)

zendure.jpg

zendure2.jpg

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According to RavPower they say they do have it https://blog.ravpower.com/2019/09/pass-through-charging-in-2019-update-ravpower-recommendations/
So not sure why you say they dont. I might have picked the wrong model on amazon I need to check that.

I confirmed this one has Pass Through https://www.amazon.com/gp/B082PGS78L
The RavPower products should be safe, but we don't know if there are other issues:
  1. Will it charge at 30W while simultaneously powering a dashcam? It might restrict itself to 10W charging if something is connected, then you need to drive for 3x longer to charge it!
  2. When switching between battery power and charger power, does it maintain power or is there a glitch which will cause the dashcam to shutdown?
My guess is that RavPower have got it working as you would want, but I haven't seen any recent reviews to confirm that, so if you do go this route, can you post a review please...

Zendure do specifically say then support UPS on some of their powerbanks (Uninterruptible Power Supply), so there is no worry about glitches, they are made to do this job rather than being a general purpose powerbank that is trying to please everyone. Doesn't mean they are actually better though. And the Cellink Neo in the above post is designed specifically for dashcams, but comes at what seems an unjustified cost! It does have the advantage of charging in just 40 minutes, but that probably comes at the expense of lifetime, making it even more expensive.
 
The RavPower products should be safe, but we don't know if there are other issues:
  1. Will it charge at 30W while simultaneously powering a dashcam? It might restrict itself to 10W charging if something is connected, then you need to drive for 3x longer to charge it!
  2. When switching between battery power and charger power, does it maintain power or is there a glitch which will cause the dashcam to shutdown?
My guess is that RavPower have got it working as you would want, but I haven't seen any recent reviews to confirm that, so if you do go this route, can you post a review please...

Zendure do specifically say then support UPS on some of their powerbanks (Uninterruptible Power Supply), so there is no worry about glitches, they are made to do this job rather than being a general purpose powerbank that is trying to please everyone. Doesn't mean they are actually better though. And the Cellink Neo in the above post is designed specifically for dashcams, but comes at what seems an unjustified cost! It does have the advantage of charging in just 40 minutes, but that probably comes at the expense of lifetime, making it even more expensive.
My friend emailed me he used the Zenpower battery on his dashcam. BUT its a different brand camera its this one https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._ts_dp550a_64g_drivepro_dash_camera_with.html

So not sure what it will do for sure. Thanks for the advice.
 
My friend emailed me he used the Zenpower battery on his dashcam. BUT its a different brand camera its this one https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._ts_dp550a_64g_drivepro_dash_camera_with.html

So not sure what it will do for sure. Thanks for the advice.
You should get similar results to your friend if you use the same powerbank. The Viofo may have reliability issues if the battery is really low- Viofo cams do need a little more power than most, but probably not enough to give any less runtime.

For those who may not know, LiIon batteries require a specific and tightly regulated 2-step charging scheme. That system relies on the charger monitoring the cells to know when to go to the second step, so if you draw power for a cam during charging, this will alter what the charger 'sees' and it can easily overcharge and cause serious safety problems. Regular LiIon charging circuits can't 'see' the added load so those powerbanks must never be used as a 'pass-through' design.

Phil
 
According to RavPower they say they do have it https://blog.ravpower.com/2019/09/pass-through-charging-in-2019-update-ravpower-recommendations/
So not sure why you say they dont. I might have picked the wrong model on amazon I need to check that.

I confirmed this one has Pass Through https://www.amazon.com/gp/B082PGS78L

I'm pleased to hear that RAVpower claims that the product can handle pass through charging. Curiously though, they don't specifically mention the feature on their product pages on their web site but they claim it on their blog site.

In once instance, pass-through charging is only confirmed in a confusing sort of review/FAQ section where a buyer says, "For the time I was charging it yes I does. I did notice on the side with the USB ports did get a little warm and haven't done it since. I did this only for the duration of a single charge on my Galaxy Note Edge."

FAQs are usually not provided by customers, especially based on a single use so it is impossible to confirm his remark.

I confirmed this one has Pass Through https://www.amazon.com/gp/B082PGS78L

On RAVpower's web site page for this product or on the Amazon link you provided there is no mention whatsoever of pass-through-charging. One has to wonder why RAVpower doesn't tout a desirable feature like pass-through-charging on their product sales pages even though they do tout it on their blog.

For another power bank on RAVpower's web site, they provide the following answer in the "FAQ" section - (RAVpower's FAQ answers appear to be provided by customers and so they are questionable.)

1. Can you charge the power bank while the power bank is charging another device?
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"As others have said, yes, you can do this. But if you are running another device, and you then attach the plug to charge the power bank, the device output will switch off. You can restart it by pressing the button, but this means you cannot use the power bank as an uninterruptible 5V supply. Maybe this doesn't matter for most users, but it caught me out."

So once again, a buyer is answering the question, not RAVpower.

For this power bank RAVpower does provide a definitive answer in their questions section:

Question: Does it handle passthrough charging? Can I charge a laptop on the usb c output or a phone from the i-smart socket while charging this device?
Answer: yes


They seem to be all over the place with how they claim the feature and it seems to be based on the particular product. Nevertheless, RAVpower is a good company (I own a few of their products) and I think you should be OK as long as you choose the right product.

All this reminds me a bit of the Anker power bank pass-through-charging saga. Early on, like five years ago or so Anker claimed their power banks could handle pass-through-charging but they were vague about whether it was a specific feature based on including the required circuitry. Eventually, they reversed course, and publicly (and repeatedly) have stated, "We no longer support pass-through-charging for our power banks." They now caution buyers that you could damage the power banks as well as the device you are charging.

anker.jpg

anker1.jpg

Anker is a good company that makes quality products but the truth of the matter was that Anker power banks never had real pass-through-charging "functionality" to begin with. One could argue they had nothing to actually "remove" as a "function" as they claim, but nevertheless, I applaud them for addressing the issue and clarifying publicly that their products do not support pass-through.

RAVpower is similarly vague about the feature in that they mostly don't specifically mention it on their sales pages but if they say so on their blog I "suppose" we can trust that, I guess?

For these reasons, if you want to go with pass-through-charging I feel it is best to go with a brand like Zendure where they state definitively right up front with each power bank they sell whether or not the product specifically includes the feature.

Battery University explains li-ion battery charging this way:

"A portable device should be turned off during charge. This allows the battery to reach the set voltage threshold and current saturation point unhindered. A parasitic load confuses the charger by depressing the battery voltage and preventing the current in the saturation stage to drop low enough by drawing a leakage current. A battery may be fully charged, but the prevailing conditions will prompt a continued charge, causing stress."

So what that means is when you have a power bank that is just below the saturation point (full charge) and you are simultaneously running a parasitic load on it while charging, (like running a dash cam) it will hover just at, and just below the fully charged state. At this point the charging circuitry begins micro-cycling. This means that the charging circuit in the power bank will begin turning on and off very rapidly as it tries to keep the continuously draining battery topped off and this rapid on-off switching will stress the battery cells, the charging circuit and your device. There is also the issue with stress to the electrolyte in the battery cells involving the electro-chemistry of how lithium ions travel back and forth between the cathode and anode during the charging and discharging process. Charging and discharging at the same time will cause stress and excess heat in the battery cells and this can eventually create lithium metal plating which is what ultimately causes lithium-ion batteries to short out and catch fire. And as @SawMaster points out there are other aspects of the li-ion charging process to contend with. True "pass-through-charging" prevents any of this from occurring.

For some reason, many people think of power banks as being like a bucket of water with a little hole in the bottom and as long as you keep filling the bucket to keep it topped off you will be fine but unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. Pass-through-charging circuitry basically allows the water in the bucket to drain down a bit before turning the spigot back on. Then, when the bucket of water is full again it shuts the spigot off.

This question of pass-through-charging has been a controversial one here on DCT for a long time and there has been a lot of misinformation and wishful thinking involved in how some members use their power banks. For one thing, even with a true pass-through-charging capable power bank, these devices were designed for periodic charging of portable computing devices like laptops and cell phones. They were never really designed to be used as full time uninterruptible power supplies, especially permanently in the challenging environment of an automobile with widely changing temperature extremes along with constant shocks and vibrations. They can indeed work for this purpose but should be approached with caution. Cell link products are a different breed of cat and aside from having all the proper circuity they use LiFePO4 cells which can better handle the stresses of full time use in an automobile.
 
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Thanks for the info...

I was thinking about using my A119 with a power bank but didn't know anything about pass-through, glad to have all this info available here. Since power banks with real pass-through are a bit expensive for my liking, I guess I'll just stick to the old hard-wiring kit and a safe voltage cut-off.

If it has GPS and no HK3 hardwire kit, then it will enter park mode after 5 minutes of no movement on the GPS, and then leave park mode when you reach 6mph.
(Not sure if those figures are correct for the current official release of firmware.)

I had actually read about this behavior and didn't like it. My plan for using a power bank (before knowing about the whole pass-through fiasco) was to use the hard-wiring kit to detect when the ACC line of the car is active/inactive. But then move the BATT connection to the power bank instead of an always-on source in the car.

This way you have instant detection of when to enter/exit parking mode but you also get to use power from the power bank instead of the car's battery. Would this have worked? I never actually wired it this way, but it was my original plan. Seems like the best route to avoid having to wait for GPS data to activate/inactivate parking mode.
 
Actually, you don't need passthrough or UPS feature - another approach is to use a storage bank with a 12V cigarette socket which is "always on" (i.e., uses the battery without restarts and does not require a start button). On my storage bank when the car starts, it recharges (input 18V2A) while still supplying the output 12V. It does not permit pass through when using the direct USB ports while charging, probably due to the IC programming, so it seems the 12V socket is "live" and independant. You can plug in a USB adapter into the 12V, and use a USB splitter cable to prioritize power from an alternative ignition source if you feel that dual load/charge maybe dangerous. Confirm with a meter that load is zero when ignition is on. The main safety and practical constraint is the fast charge rate required as mentioned above - at least 30W+ required as mentioned above, otherwise a very large bank is required to compensate. With fast charge and such a large bank, I feel that safety is an issue as heat builds up fast as I am currently testing such a bank and it does get hotter than other slower charging banks. The best location seems to be under the passenger or driver car seats where there always seem to be HVAC vents but I'm not sure how to mount the battery to take advantage of the cooling ventilation (just using a backpack for now). Ideally, there should be a mechanism that is thermostat controlled (i.e., charges only at normal temperatures) and also stops charging at 75-80% so that you dont have the most dangerous scenarios: full or overcharging in hot temp, or full storage in hot conditions. The latter is more unlikely as you will probably run down the battery faster than you can recharge it. Whether the viofo can enter into Park Mode proper with a lithium constant voltage will need investigation since there isn't the usual voltage drop detection usually associated with a hardwire kit.

Note: one unexpected benefit of this setup is the ability to plug in a voltmeter to check the voltage at various charge levels - I'm hoping this will correlate to battery health...
 
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You can use a 12 battery and 'float charge' it while tapping a 5V USB PS at the same point, but most powerbanks are 5VDC USB, and this usage would need a 12V powerbank to have both input and output at the same terminals or port if it's going to function the same way. If there's a separate input and output on a 12V powerbank, then you'd still need a "pass-through" function for the cam to receive power while the powerbank is charging.

When I get my 12V AGM system going it will have a relay to switch power sources so the cam(s) will always have power, but the AGM won't be tied in to the car while parked- only when the car is running; essentially the same way RV systems function.

Phil
 
Also be careful that your powerbank actually does have overheat protection; there are plenty of these which have false advertising involved or where the protection isn't done well. Lithium-based electricity in any form is nasty when it gets too hot :eek:

Phil
 
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