Need focal length and sensor size Mobius 1 camera.

Discussion in 'General Dash Cam Discussion' started by Lola, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    you are twisting things to suit what you want, little point in me dissecting your statements and clarifying things that you have misinterpreted as it will just go on and on
     
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  2. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    I maintain that dash cams as they are manufactured and sold today are simple gadgets, not "real" cameras yet you are trying to compare the notion that not providing the focal length or aperture of the installed lenses is somehow related to a$4000 product like this one from Panasonic. And I'm "twisting things to suit what I want"? Hah! :rolleyes:
     
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  3. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    it's quite clear from your responses here that you are reading things that I haven't said at all, what I said and what you understood it to mean are very different things
     
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  4. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    Reading things that I haven't said at all? I quoted YOU....""99% of manufacturers don't even quote accurate FOV numbers" and "there's no way for an end user to know if the spec offered is correct or not either". Where do you fit in to that equation?
     
  5. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

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    I can certainly understand Jokin's position- one does not give away the 'secrets' that set your product apart from the rest. And I think he's right about the average dashcam owner not really understanding the inner workings of a cam. I can understand Dashmellow wanting to know FL, for he understands it's nuances. Both positions are valid ;)

    Most of us are stuck with believing whatever specs are touted for any product unless they seem to be very overstated. If Honda says a car has a 185HP engine and the car's performance seems to corroborate that most folks wont look any further. If Kenwood says it's stereo delivers 400W of audio and it can make your ears hurt, it's the same thing. Most people only care about what something does for them, not it's technical data :rolleyes:

    With enthusiasts it's a different story. They will put that Honda on a dyno to see what the exact HP is, studying the torque curve and the BSHP numbers so they can decide how to best modify it to gain more power. An audiophile will test that Kenwood, looking at it's THD figures at various volume levels. Few of us have access to a dyno or anechoic chamber so we count on the enthusiasts who can do proper testing to let us know what they find :)

    There's space in the world for everyone and the world needs all kinds of people. I stand in support of Dashmellow and Jokin who are both at the top level of what they do even though they do different things with different approaches. We all benefit from both of you and I don't want to see an end to that because I am part of that "we" :cool:

    Phil
     
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  6. TonyM

    TonyM Well-Known Member

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    Did you say you're a trained communicator? I think we all benefit from having you here too :)
     
  7. Hombré

    Hombré Active Member

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    @Dashmellow............ Shut up sometimes and get sick of your pedantics

    I appreciate your photography expertise but you are NOT a dashcam manufacturer
     
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  8. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    And I'm sick of your alcoholically belligerent attitude towards me and so many others on this forum. Try sobering up once in awhile!

    Hombre drunk .png
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
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  9. Hombré

    Hombré Active Member

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    I like your word belligerent but your attempt to generalize me is misguided

    Again, your photography expertise is noted and maybe even now overstated regardless of your post count............. There are limits you know and again............ You are not a camera manufacturer but just a mouth piece
     
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  10. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    I know the difference between an actual camera and a gadget that acts like one, that's all.

    It's simple.......on a daily basis this forum is flooded with reports of all kinds of issues both minor and serious with their dash cameras. For just one example, the otherwise excellent SG9665GC has had a long term issue with numerous reports of the camera going out of focus going all the way back to the V1 version (not the only brand of camera with this issue, of course). (I've had 3 GCs with focus problems, btw.) Yet we hear all kinds of claims from Ric and Jon about the metal lens module, etc., etc, and dubious statements such as "We've shipped plenty of these to Texas and have nothing but happy customers.- no heat warping, no heat focus shift, no problems."

    Leaving aside the hype and spin factor for the time being, the focus shift issue is an example of why I don't consider dash cams to be other than plastic gadgets. When you screw some components on a PCB into a plastic shell you have a gadget whose components will eventually warp in the heat and shrink in the cold regardless of a metal lens module.

    "Real" cameras are generally built around a rigid metal chassis that holds the components in place securely. Even the cheapest video surveillance cameras are built to be extremely rigid because they must endure dramatic temperature and weather extremes without going out of focus. Most of them have a sleeve surrounding the lens that prevents it from shifting around during expansion and contraction and the PCBs are built into a rigid cage which is then screwed to a rigid housing. Interestingly, today's video surveillance cameras use many of the exact same sensors, DSPs and S-mount (M12) lenses we see in dash cams.

    I advocate for dash cams to be built more like miniature video surveillance cameras. That's what they are actually if you stop to think about it, yet that's not how they are made. Unfortunately, for now, dash cams are put together like cheap gadgets. As I've said before, dash cams are like Gameboys. That means they consist of a circuit board, with a screen and some plastic buttons screwed into molded stand-offs inside a thin plastic housing. That's a gadget, not a camera. If and when that were to happen and build standards for dash cams were raised to the level of true cameras we would no longer see such constant reports of focus shift issues. My (dark gray) surveillance cameras can sit all day baking in the hot sun in 95 degree F weather and run 24/7/365 with no focus shifts. Also, all my surveillance cameras happen to have been in the same general price range of a decent dash camera, in the $150.00 range, give or take.

    This is but one example of the difference between a camera and a gadget, even cheap point and shoot cameras. And BTW, when I was shopping for a new surveillance camera recently most of them I looked at provide the focal lengths, and aperture (and all the other detailed specs) so that the buyer can make an informed purchasing decision according to his requirements.

    And, @Hombré, my friend, when you go around telling members on this forum to "shut up", you are being belligerent. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
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  11. Hombré

    Hombré Active Member

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    I sometimes like your elaborate and detailed explanations of anything and I said shut up sometimes
     
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  12. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    OK. :);)
     
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  13. Lola

    Lola Well-Known Member

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    I did forget that you told me, I just remembered it was refereed to as 1/3 sensor. Then in my research I came across an article in a RC forum that stated from one of their guru's that from his data the sensor in the Mobius 1 was a 1/2.7. This led to the question, just what was it and more questions.
    Looking back now on what you said about sensors and the image circle from the lens it would have ben OK and probably been advantageous to use a image circle from 1/ 2.7 sensor (for lens) data to assure actual camera sensor 1/3 was covered, thus avoiding vignetting. This made very good sense to me and was my intention, either the 1/1.7 or 1/2.5 would be fine.
    I have been talking to a manufacturer of lenses asking about making me a couple lenses (Great lenses) and he stated it was important for him to have the focal length, sensor information and FOV of the current lens (not wide) in use (Mobius A lens). He said this information was necessary to insure the new lenses didn't have problems due to increased fl. However from the issuing discussion here I won't be getting the focal Length in all likely hood!
    Thanks for all the information concerning the manufactures not releasing this type of information. Now I know I won't have to spend many many hours trying to get this type of information ever again because of unavailability due to the manufacturers. A totally ridiculous condition beyond anyone's control, except for a few feeble minded people. :rolleyes:
     
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  14. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry about spacing out what I said, I do it all too often myself. :) I too saw several posts about the Mobius sensor being 1/2.7" from what seem like authoritative sources but unfortunately on today's internet it's always vital to be skeptical so I looked up the Aptina AR0330 spec sheet.

    You're looking into having custom lenses made? Wow! Did you win the lottery or something? :D Keep us posted!

    You know, I would imagine if you told a manufacturer what sensor you want to match the lens to and the results you want to achieve, he wouldn't really need to know the exact details of the Mobius A lens. It would be enough to know that the current lens is approximately 87-90 degrees horizontal coverage and probably around ƒ2.0. I would ask if he could make the fastest lens possible with the best possible optical specs and correction.

    Before you go out and spend a fortune on something like this though, I would take a look at the new Mobius A2 lens which is an optically improved version of the original A lens and is very well corrected for barrel distortion and other parameters compared to the original.
     
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  15. kamkar1

    kamkar1 Well-Known Member

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    Peau productions do say that my 12 mm have a little barrel distortion, so i take it that's true if they say it, either way i am fine with it, with the only gripe being the back focal length being so much longer than whats used on the X camera.

    But even if it only screw in a little ( 2 - 4 mm ) its still fine if you fix it in some way, but its far to little seating for a non secured lens so it will rattle loose pretty fast if not secured.
    And if need be the mount can be changed for a longer one if need be, but for now i will just run with that i have.
     
  16. Lola

    Lola Well-Known Member

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    I haven't received a price from him making me lenses yet, He told me it was essential to have specifications like the fl, aperture,AOV, etc. This is a semi custom I'll explain. I have contacted practically all the manufactures on the internet for pricing and specifications, unfortunately that was still when I thought I had to have a 1/3 type format lens to complement the 1/3 sensor format. So, if they argued or kept sending me quotes on 1/2.5 format lenses I more are less just wrote that person off. Then when I finally remembered what you had told me about Camera sensor format/size vs lens size format it was sort of late to back track and start over! About that time I received a quote from a manufacture that had another email address in the information. He speaks english and we had some discussions. He confirmed what you said on the subject and also told me that tooling for all the different lens formats was expensive so knowing the sensor.image format situation they most use 1/2.5 as the board lens (Type M12) regardless if someone says 1/3 or smaller camera sensor size as long as the thrown image is larger then the camera sensor. After all we are talking about them getting very little money for these type lenses. The overseas customers for them are having practically all their lenses made in China and are getting practically the same thing in lenses like the M12 type CTV, board all treated as M12 types. When the customers start asking for High Mega pixel lenses (all the talk here is about M12 type) above3 to 5 MP the price go's up because of better glass etc, along with better manufacturing. Maybe this is BS!

    I came away from this and started looking at some of the people selling in this country under small and big name sellers and noticed some range in the pricing of double to as much as 20 times as much for basically the same lenses but maybe the ones with the really high prices were paying for the extras, how are you going to know!

    Thanks for the estimate on the A lens Mobius (fl 2mm estimate) I'll go with that.

    As for the guy I'm talking to only time will tell, I'm not going to spend a lot, buy he doesn't know that yet. When you are talking about something half the size of one's thumb with a price range of about 10.00 to a couple hundred or more in this country something is really wrong! So I intend to walk very carefully :confused::cool:!
     
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  17. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    So, I was driving around this afternoon doing some errands and musing about this and that and I started thinking about your question regarding the aperture and focal length of the Mobius A lens and the difficulty in procuring that information when I suddenly had to give myself a giant dope slap on my forehead! :p EXIF DATA!!!! Almost drove off the f**king road! :D

    So as soon as I got home I opened up a recent still photo I took with the original V1 Mobius A lens camera I carry around in my pocket all the time using EXIF Viewer for the Mac. Here are the results!!

    The Mobius A lens has focal length of 2.5mm and a default aperture of ƒ1.7 (the ƒ 1.8 F-number shows up too and to be honest, I'm not quite sure what that means and am still exploring that. Maybe someone else here can offer an explanation for the odd discrepancy?) Nevertheless, the lens aperture reads as ƒ1.7.

    Mobi-exif.jpg

    IMAG0016.jpg
    Apparently there's a bit of schmutz on the lens.:(

    I'm still not sure why you are going on this custom lens quest but it's very interesting and I am looking forward to hearing more about how this goes. Hope this info helps! :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
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  18. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    An experiment for you if you're keen, using the same camera but changing the lens setting in Msetup to each alternate option, what values do you get in the EXIF data for each lens selection?
     
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  19. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't do a thing. Those A-B-C lens settings in mSetup apparently only change the lens color profiles, best I've ever been able to tell. Also, if you swap in a different lens module it will still give you the default EXIF lens data originally built into the camera. As a basic SoC camera is doesn't seem to be able to update on the fly.

    Edit: I should clarify. The camera seems to default to the original sensor module info, not the lens it comes with.
     
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  20. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    that's because the values are coded in, the odds of all 4 lenses having the exact same f/ and BFL spec are slim anyway I would think

    that aside though I wasn't trying to suggest Mobius are doing anything wrong, this was a point I was trying to make previously about these values, as a consumer there's no way to know if the values are accurate and if they became something that was deemed useful for consumers to judge one camera against another you'd find a great majority of cameras touting figures that were deemed popular or market worthy, they can quite easily change these values in the firmware to read anything they like, accuracy wouldn't come into it, we see exactly the same thing already with lenses, so many are promoted at 170° FOV because that's seen to be as something consumers are looking for (bigger numbers are better, right?), I don't recall seeing any camera that actually had a FOV that wide yet we see it advertised constantly

    for consumers it sucks to not have equal metrics on which to start sifting through available options but they have no way to know if the figures are accurate, they can't measure these themselves and even even if they could average Joe has no idea what they mean anyway

    at the end of the day there is one thing that can't be faked and that's the end result, only once you see what the product does can you decide if it meets your needs or not, it's unfortunate that even this process is marred at times as some sellers resort to samples that are not representative of the actual product, even some big brands have been caught out with this, promoting products with samples created with different hardware or tweaked firmware which didn't match what consumers were buying, doesn't take too long before this gets found out but some early adopters still get shortchanged in the process
     
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