SG9665GC High Contrast/Dynamic Range Flaw and other Discouragements

I understand your point, but clearly the large amount of black filling most of the area normally used for calculating the exposure is having an effect and is having more effect at the times when the contrast is highest, and is made more complicated by the fact that it is reflective and so sometimes contains the bright sky instead of black. I think it would be at least interesting to try it on spot metering for a while if that option exists on this camera, it may help with diagnosing the problem even if it doesn't actually help, the area normally used for spot metering doesn't contain any of the black.

This is my thoughts also and I've also discussed the various metering modes in another thread about reg plates. I've been doing photography for about 15 years now and many of the principles are simliar. If it were me and if possible I would be testing under a controlled environment using various lighting tools to try and establish what's happening. It does seem that the camera isn't reacting or reacting fast enough to the changing environment. It does seem like a fault with the metering but I don't know if these dashcams have separate hardware for metering or if it's software which deals with it through the lens?

We have an indoor CCTV camera at work which is similar but far worse, when sunlight streams in the whole scene washes out. The other identical indoor camera adjusts its exposue almost straight away to deal with the bright source of light.
 
It was only a suggestion for testing purposes.

Thanks. I appreciate your suggestion. I was simply saying that I've already tried that (and other possible fix-its) and offering evidence of why aiming the camera doesn't appear to be a solution.
 
I understand your point, but clearly the large amount of black filling most of the area normally used for calculating the exposure is having an effect and is having more effect at the times when the contrast is highest, and is made more complicated by the fact that it is reflective and so sometimes contains the bright sky instead of black. I think it would be at least interesting to try it on spot metering for a while if that option exists on this camera, it may help with diagnosing the problem even if it doesn't actually help, the area normally used for spot metering doesn't contain any of the black.

I appreciate what you are saying but spot metering is not available. Not really sure spot metering would help as the issue is one of tonal/dynamic range control more so than overall exposure.

Since this problem does not manifest with other cameras it is an indication that there is an issue unique to the SG9665GC.

The salient question here is not so much how to remedy this problem but why does the SG9665GC have such difficulty with the identical scenarios that other cameras handle with aplomb?
 
Could it be the metering algorithm?

I don't believe it is an exposure issue. It is a tone curve issue. Perhaps a different algorithm altogether?

FWIW, I have life long experience in professional photography so I know a thing or two.

Months of trying to deal with and analyze this problem leaves me to believe that more than simply exposure, what is happening is that the top third of the tonal range drops out if the sensor/DSP becomes overwhelmed.

tonechart2.jpg tonechart.jpg
 
I don't believe it is an exposure issue. It is a tone curve issue. Perhaps a different algorithm altogether?

FWIW, I have life long experience in professional photography so I know a thing or two.

Months of trying to deal with and analyze this problem leaves me to believe that more than simply exposure, what is happening is that the top third of the tonal range drops out if the sensor/DSP becomes overwhelmed.

View attachment 21477 View attachment 21476

If that's the case then there must be an exposure issue as well. It's the only explanation for the motion blur that's apparent in the 806 comparison in your original post. They only thing that will cause that is exposure time.
 
I appreciate what you are saying but spot metering is not available. Not really sure spot metering would help as the issue is one of tonal/dynamic range control more so than overall exposure.

Since this problem does not manifest with other cameras it is an indication that there is an issue unique to the SG9665GC.

The salient question here is not so much how to remedy this problem but why does the SG9665GC have such difficulty with the identical scenarios that other cameras handle with aplomb?
I don't know about all your cameras, but I do know that the mini0806 uses a very different WDR to any of the Sony IMX322/Novatek cameras I've tested, which does give it a much wider dynamic range at the cost of in darker conditions having a fair amount of motion blur caused by multiple superimposed images which where collected at different times. The 322/Novatek cameras always seem to have a single image with the dark boosted but the bright left overexposed, as though the HDR is just an increase in the gamma.

The mini 0806 is very good in bright sunlight and shadows with high contrast.

How about getting a big graphic for the front of your car so that instead of being black, the big black area contains an exposure chart to give the auto exposure a better chance and so that we can see the result? :D
 
If that's the case then there must be an exposure issue as well. It's the only explanation for the motion blur that's apparent in the 806 comparison in your original post. They only thing that will cause that is exposure time.

Yes I agree, exposure does seem to be playing a part in this but the problem appears to be more complex. Adjusting the EV settings for example will affect the overall image density but doesn't cure the camera's tendency to freak out when it suddenly encounters high contrast/ high brightness scenarios.
 
I gave my new SG9665GC its first real test today,too and from work ,it was a nice day mostly blue sky with a little bit of haze,and so much of the footage was bleached out that even large warehouses were lost into the sky,the dusty road had so much glare.

3.jpg

Then I noticed how much dashboard was showing!,much more than I had initially set the camera at,so I looked at some footage I took on Sunday when I was visiting friends.
These next 2 screen grabs are 12 sceonds apart,when the camera was moved from its original position,what a diference 2 clicks can make !!!

1.jpg
2.jpg
 
I've tried adjusting the aim upwards but before you know it you encounter a scenario where you are back where you started. Then again, in other situations, tilting the camera more towards the sky results in captures that are way too dark. The problem seems to be more complex than such a solution suggests.

I will refer again to the screen shots from my earlier posts. How would pointing the camera higher to include more sky in order to darken the image effect the beginning sections of this video?

capture.png
 
It's definitely an exposure issue but it's which part of all the elements involved in creating the exposure that is causing the problem. I still reckon you need to get away from footage outside where there are so many variables changing so quickly and test under controlled conditions.

The metering algorithm may not be telling it to shift the dynamic range enough or change the shutter speed or iso to prevent over exposure and is favouring better exposing darker areas, or as you've hinted at perhaps the tonal curves are not coded correctly under certain circumstances.

Under controlled conditions it should be much more evident if only part of the scene changes or if the whole scene changes when introducing a bright light source and hopefully work out what's really happening.

What type of photography do you do for a living?
 
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Im not getting into this, my photography skills is basic knowlege i got in photography class in the 8 grade.

Do love my Dslr let me experiment all i want without spending houres in the dark room before i can see the result, and not least remembering what settings the pictures was made with.
 
It's definitely an exposure issue but it's which part of all the elements involved in creating the exposure that is causing the problem. I still reckon you need to get away from footage outside where there are so many variables changing so quickly and test under controlled conditions.

The metering algorithm may not be telling it to shift the dynamic range enough or change the shutter speed or iso to prevent over exposure and is favouring better exposing darker areas, or as you've hinted at perhaps the tonal curves are not coded correctly under certain circumstances.

Under controlled conditions it should be much more evident if only part of the scene changes or if the whole scene changes when introducing a bright light source and hopefully work out what's really happening.

What type of photography do you do for a living?

I should explain that I bought this camera a year ago because I was in need of a reliable set-and-forget dash cam rather than the usual DIY experimentation and testing that I've so often engaged in for 6 years now with numerous other cameras. Instead, I've done nothing but hassle with this camera and have spent and wasted inordinate amounts of time dealing this issue, adjusting, testing, CPLing, dash matting, calibrating, documenting and corresponding, etc., for a full year now, including even the creating and posting of this thread which I've been wanting to do but don't even really have time to give proper attention to at the moment.

So forgive me if I'm a little burnt out and not quite so amenable to all the testing suggestions, such as taking it into the studio and running all kinds of further experiments. This has turned out to be the exact thing I was seeking to avoid when I bought it. As much as I usually enjoy all kinds of testing and DIY stuff I just need a front facing camera that quietly does its job and does it well. Since ONLY the SG9665GC has manifested this issue, unlike any of the other cameras I've owned or tested at this point, I'm more inclined to simply find a suitable replacement and perhaps do some casual testing in the future if I have the time and feel like it. Ultimately, @jokiin is the one who needs to analyze and resolve this and other issues with this otherwise excellent product. Indeed, I've wondered about some of the issues that appear to surround the way the firmware support for this camera sometimes misses the mark and updates that take what seems like a long, long time to come to fruition. But I'm not really sure that's the topic of this thread necessarily.

One can argue about the finer points of whether it is a tone curve problem or an exposure problem or both or which algorithm is causing the issue but there is clearly an issue that goes beyond which angle the camera is aimed at or the fact the my hood is dark blue. I've truly been surprised at the paucity of mentions or complaints about this problem but I've certainly seen it come up enough or show up in posted videos. Even in @USDashCamera's "Full review of the SG" on May 1, 2015 he says, "So next I'm going to show a clip of going through tunnels so it switches from dark to light several times. So you'll see the transition, it seems a little harsh at first but it quickly adapts to the light again and I think overall, it's at least as good as you can expect." Obviously, he's noticed this is an issue and felt the need to mention it in the review, even though he makes an effort to downplay the problem with the "as good as you can expect" comment.......whatever that means.?

My photographic background is long complex and is therefore not something I could easily offer a simple one sentence answer for to your question. I hope you understand, this is not the place for me to discuss that and I would prefer for now to stick with the topic. :)
 
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I was just wondering if you were a professional photographer and what field that's all lol

I understand your frustrations, I think the SG leans more to favouring exposing darker areas to make the overall image look good hence the reg plate washouts, but I'm sure you know exposure has always been a complex task for any imaging device and dashcam video must be even more difficult due to the fast changing scenes.

It has to know when a light source is small enough to disregard such as street lights but then what about light sources which are bright such as reflective licence plates where it's important to get the detail and have them exposed correctly? I guess that's where the metering area comes into play?

I don't think mine exhibits the problems you have but as some people's do it would suggest that it's not a software problem as they all have the same software (unless running different firmwares) so perhaps it's a hardware issue or simply that everyone does have this problem and it either doesn't bother them, they don't notice it or they never encounter the outside conditions that cause it to happen?
 
One thing I might add is that I run four cameras in my vehicle with 3 Mobius cams in the rear and both sides and the SG facing forward. Compared with how the SG9665GC behaves when it encounters very bright conditions and blows out the upper range of the tonal scale, the Mobius tends to render darker images in bright scenes where it "stops down" so to speak; in other words, underexpose. So, yes, exposure is part of the equation here but tonal range is an equal or perhaps greater component. Certainly a darker than normal image that captures everything is much preferable in a dash cam. Where the SG shows snow in bright sun as a pure white glare, the Mobius is more likely to render it darker with good highlight detail.

mobiside.jpg
 
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Very interesting thread and I appreciate all your time and experience, Dashmellow. Are there certain situations, besides tunnels and over-brush, that should best demonstrate this effect? I'm in FL so unfortunately there are no significant elevation changes available. Am I looking for scenes with quickly changing brightness?

JD
 
Very interesting thread and I appreciate all your time and experience, Dashmellow. Are there certain situations, besides tunnels and over-brush, that should best demonstrate this effect? I'm in FL so unfortunately there are no significant elevation changes available. Am I looking for scenes with quickly changing brightness?

JD

Thanks for your remarks.

There has been an assumption that this problem manifests mostly when one is transitioning from one environment to another such as coming out of a tunnel and the camera becomes overwhelmed and then adjusts. While this is true of most cameras, the SG seems to have more of an issue than most cams and it takes longer to recover than most.

To answer your question, yes, there are also many situations where I don't necessarily need to be transitioning from one lighting environment to another. It can happen just driving along in bright light like if the sun comes out from behind a cloud. If you watch the first video from my first post in this thread, (or specifically, just the last sixty seconds you will see that the sun is directly behind my vehicle the whole time as the glare overwhelms the scene.
 
Had a look at the photos at the beginning of this thread on my computer rather than phone and it does look like it's overexposing slightly and perhaps enough to blow out bright highlights, you can tell when comparing the darker areas, the SG is retaining detail whereas the other dashcam is showing almost all black. The Mini, however, seems to have a very good dynamic range and is capturing both highlights and shadows. But the videos are a strange one and it's almost as if the metering is getting stuck and not adapting to the changing conditions, hence highlights are blowing out.
 
I re-watched the first video and holy smokes! I kept waiting for the camera to adjust but it wasn't happening. Hopefully my new SD card arrives today and I will be able to try out a short 'tunnel' I found nearby.
 
I re-watched the first video and holy smokes! I kept waiting for the camera to adjust but it wasn't happening.

Yes, that's the problem. An entire car accident could possibly occur right in front of your eyes under certain conditions and the camera would fail to capture most or all of it.
 
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