SGGCX2PRO+ beeps occasionally and repeatedly when switching to parking mode

[HonestReview]

How?

Again, after numerous read and writes, errors develop. How? I presume because when something is written to the point of being full (No Space Remaining), and then a 0 flag (delete) is generated to create space and permit loop recording, that errors develop over time. By the simple process of being full, deleting, and overwriting.

That's my guess. I am sure someone here could give you a very in depth explanation.

 

[DT MI]

How?

It has to do with the physical structure of the chip. Flash memory is made up of a number of components separated by an oxide layer. Unlike conventional memory before a cell (or block in the case of flash memory) can be written it must first be erased. This erase cycle causes physical deterioration of the oxide layer. When enough damage is done the particular block becomes unusable, and eventually the entire chip.

Here's a link to a 4 page article about flash memory history, operation, reliability, etc. that doesn't get 'too' technical, although there is a bit of 'tech' talk since it is a technical subject. (Click the 'Next' link at the bottom of each page to read through all 4.)

What is Flash Memory Technology » Electronics Notes

Flash memory technology is widely used for everything from memory sticks to camera cards etc . . . What is flash - details, technology, operation . . .

www.electronics-notes.com

 

[Deacon]

This erase cycle causes physical deterioration of the oxide layer.

Yes, that’s how flash memory can wear over time. How does hitting the format option in the cam fix it?

 

[HonestReview]

Yes, that’s how flash memory can wear over time. How does hitting the format option in the cam fix it?

A low level format (versus a quick format in the dash cam) overwrites all the sectors with zeros and erases all previous data. Instead of simply marking a 0 flag (delete) and basically overwriting the existing data. I guess this would be comparable to taking an Pencil Eraser to a notebook and erasing everything. Then attempting to write over it. Versus using a clean piece of paper.

 

[DT MI]

Yes, that’s how flash memory can wear over time. How does hitting the format option in the cam fix it?

Formatting, either quick or low-level, will not in any way fix the physical deterioration of the oxide layer. Once the damage is done, it's done.

 

[HonestReview]

Formatting, either quick or low-level, will not in any way fix the physical deterioration of the oxide layer. Once the damage is done, it's done.

If the SD card has a controller failure, then no, the card is damaged and formatting will not rectify the problem. If the card is simply developing errors due to repeated writes and rewrites, a low level format may resolve these issues.

 

[DT MI]

...If the card is simply developing errors due to repeated writes and rewrites, a low level format may resolve these issues.

A low level format (versus a quick format in the dash cam) overwrites all the sectors with zeros and erases all previous data....

Since the physical degradation of the oxide layer is caused by the erase/write cycles (copied below from my linked article which I assume you read) how is it that a low-level format that overwrites the card "may resolve these issues"? If anything the formatting process will exacerbate, not remediate, the problem by performing yet additional erase/write operations which were the initial cause of the problems.

...Flash memory because they had a limited number of erase programme cycles. This was caused by the destructive breakdown of the thin gate oxide layer....

The flash memory life results from a wear out mechanism caused by the basic the structure and technology of the device.
....
The wear-out mechanism for flash devices occurs as a result of usage causing the tunnel oxide layer to degrade.
...
Flash memory uses a process called channel hot-electron injection for programming each cell and Fowler-Nordheim tunnelling for the erase cycle. However it is found that electrons can become trapped within the oxide layer, and this electron trapping in the tunnel oxide reduces electric field during erase operations. In turn this gives rise to a in gradual degradation of the erase characteristics and closure of memory cell threshold window.

 

[HonestReview]

Since the physical degradation of the oxide layer is caused by the erase/write cycles (copied below from my linked article which I assume you read) how is it that a low-level format that overwrites the card "may resolve these issues"? If anything the formatting process will exacerbate, not remediate, the problem by performing yet additional erase/write operations which were the initial cause of the problems.

Manufacturers recommend you format MicroSD cards on a regular basis. If the controller chip is failing, then nothing you do will rectify that. However, and again I defer to manufacturers recommendations, cards tend to lose performance over time after multiple writes and rewrites. The low level format helps correct these issues and "refresh the card".

 

[DT MI]

Manufacturers recommend you format MicroSD cards on a regular basis. If the controller chip is failing, then nothing you do will rectify that. However, and again I defer to manufacturers recommendations, cards tend to lose performance over time after multiple writes and rewrites. The low level format helps correct these issues and "refresh the card".

You failed to answer the question - how is it that a low-level format that overwrites the card "may resolve these issues"? The "issues" not being 'failure of the controller' circuit and not 'performance over time' but rather the physical degradation of the oxide layer caused by repetitive erase/write operations which a low-level format will do more of.

 

[HonestReview]

You failed to answer the question - how is it that a low-level format that overwrites the card "may resolve these issues"? The "issues" not being 'failure of the controller' circuit and not 'performance over time' but rather the physical degradation of the oxide layer caused by repetitive erase/write operations which a low-level format will do more of.

Manufacturers recommend a low level format for a reason. The reason being the card performance has degraded.

I presume when you're referring to the physical degradation of the oxide layer, you're meaning the card is beginning to fail. Nothing will correct or prevent the failure of a card (controller or oxide layer). A low level format will merely correct performance issues and attempt to correct errors by writing over them. But if the card itself is failing, then yes, it's done for. And the more read and writes will make it worse.

 

[DT MI]

Manufacturers recommend a low level format for a reason. The reason being the card performance has degraded.
...

This is not about manufacturer recommendations or performance so I don't understand why you keep bringing those up. It has always been about damage to the card since my earlier statement in response to @Deacon - "This erase cycle causes physical deterioration of the oxide layer. When enough damage is done the particular block becomes unusable, and eventually the entire chip."

...

I presume when you're referring to the physical degradation of the oxide layer, you're meaning the card is beginning to fail. ...

No presumption is necessary since physical degradation of an integral sub-component of the media is an obvious failure it wasn't necessary to specifically point that out. This also was highlighted no fewer than five times and mentioned in context many more either directly or in the linked article(s) - including by you "If the card is simply developing errors due to repeated writes and rewrites, a low level format may resolve these issues", which now makes this a circular discussion since that was the assertion by you that initiated this sub-topic.

 

[HonestReview]

This is not about manufacturer recommendations or performance so I don't understand why you keep bringing those up. It has always been about damage to the card since my earlier statement in response to @Deacon - "This erase cycle causes physical deterioration of the oxide layer. When enough damage is done the particular block becomes unusable, and eventually the entire chip."



No presumption is necessary since physical degradation of an integral sub-component of the media is an obvious failure it wasn't necessary to specifically point that out. This also was highlighted no fewer than five times and mentioned in context many more either directly or in the linked article(s) - including by you "If the card is simply developing errors due to repeated writes and rewrites, a low level format may resolve these issues", which now makes this a circular discussion since that was the assertion by you that initiated this sub-topic.

Actually, the original discussion revolved around you never formatting your card. You were 100% wrong according to manufacturers.

This is a completely different discussion. Deterioration of oxidized layer. Which googling, I find ZERO MENTION of this being an issue in MicroSD cards. Please provide a source.

MicroSD cards use Nand Memory. The cells are comprised of TLC, MLC, and SLC

Generally, when you can no longer read a MicroSD card, the controller is going bad. Multiple Read and WRites do lead to performance issues and errors. But again, I believe most failures stem from controller issues.

Beyond that, Ill ask you to provide sources that a failure in the oxidized layer is the reason errors develop and that these errors cannot be overwritten in an attempt to correct them.

 

[Deacon]

I think what y’all are missing is that it’s likely similar to the old platter hard drives developing bad sectors. A low-level format may cause the controller to identify and exclude any bad sectors (cells) such that they are not used for writing and reading from that point out, extending the useful life of the rest of the device.

There’s lots of info on this old thread with numerous sources for various items:

MicroSD options, including MLC cards

Conclusion (tl;dr) UPDATE 2019-04-19: The Samsung PRO Endurance microSD cards utilize MLC in a V-NAND configuration, do not exclude dashcam use in their warranty, and they are currently available in 128GB—which comes with a 5 year warranty! While many more modern cards are showing improvement...

dashcamtalk.com

 

[HonestReview]

I think what y’all are missing is that it’s likely similar to the old platter hard drives developing bad sectors. A low-level format may cause the controller to identify and exclude any bad sectors (cells) such that they are not used for writing and reading from that point out, extending the useful life of the rest of the device.

There’s lots of info on this old thread with numerous sources for various items:

MicroSD options, including MLC cards

Conclusion (tl;dr) UPDATE 2019-04-19: The Samsung PRO Endurance microSD cards utilize MLC in a V-NAND configuration, do not exclude dashcam use in their warranty, and they are currently available in 128GB—which comes with a 5 year warranty! While many more modern cards are showing improvement...

dashcamtalk.com

Hard drives use platters and writing zeros can definitely mark the bad sectors and set them aside to not be used. My guess is it may work on an SSD, but I'm not 100% applicable as Solid State Memory uses TLC, MLC, and SLC cells.

A lot of times though, the controller goes bad on Solid State Drives / Cards and then you're simply screwed without a data recovery company pulling the crap off for you. I've watched online where people solder wires to the actual memory chips of SD cards to pull off data. I got a few with photos I was stupid and didn't back up. Controller bad and I lost a good amount of crap. But since PERSONAL trip photos, not worth expenditure to have a company recover. As no one but me cares about them.

 

[DT MI]

Actually, the original discussion revolved around you never formatting your card. You were 100% wrong according to manufacturers.

You are, once again, wrong or in denial. That original discussion was about manufacturers recommending formatting on a regular basis without providing an explanation as to why and how that would prevent errors and my inviting a credible link to a site with that explanation:

(Post #15 earlier in this thread.)
"This is something I put in the category of 'urban legend'. I've been hearing and reading this for years now (long before I got my first dash cam) and have yet to see a single credible source explaining why or how - just the same dire warning regurgitated over and over ad nauseam.

I only reformat my dash cam cards when updating the F/W, and then only in case there's something in the new version that wouldn't like the 'leftovers' from the prior version. I've been using the same flash memory in my digital cameras for years now and have never reformatted and have not had a single problem.

If you, or anyone, has a link to a credible source explaining why and how errors are prevented I'd love to see it."

In response to that you provided a link to www.transend-info.com to an article recommending regular formatting without providing the requested 'why and how' information - only a vague reference to performance improvements again with no explanation as to why or how. (Post #16 in this thread).

It was after I pointed out in Post #19 that your link failed to provide the information I was looking for and in Post #30 you insisted it did (which it did not) that you erroneously claimed 'the entire first part of your post was dedicated to "You not believing in the need for reformatting".' which is factually incorrect as you can see in the entire quoted post above. It was at that point that you attempted to divert attention from the original subject by raising a false issue of my "never formatting" my cards which is also incorrect as I clearly stated that "I only reformat my dash cam cards when updating the F/W" which is a far cry from 'never'. (FWIW I also 'always' format my cards when moving them between devices.)

Subsequent to that in Posts #32 (twice) and #38 you continued to insist that I "never" reformat my cards, even though you quoted my post that explained when I do, in the same post, and once again insisted that the link you provided did supply the information I was looking for, even though it clearly did not.

...This is a completely different discussion. Deterioration of oxidized layer. Which googling, I find ZERO MENTION of this being an issue in MicroSD cards. Please provide a source.

Micro SD cards are flash memory as clearly explained in page 4 of the article I originally linked to - either you failed to read it, failed to comprehend it, or chose to ignore it. Here's a link to that specific page so it's easy for you to find.

Which Memory Card: Memory Card Buying Guide » Electronics Notes

Find your way through the maze of different types of memory card and understand which is the best one for your camera, mobile phone, or any of your electronic gadgets using our definitive buying guide.

www.electronics-notes.com

That article and specific in-line quotes quite clearly explained how the oxide (not oxidized) layer deteriorates. As to you not being able to find any mention of deterioration when searching I suspect your 'google' may be broken. If the electronics-notes.com article isn't adequate here's a couple of links which should provide more than enough information, from multiple reputable sources, to fill in your knowledge gaps.

First using simple "flash memory oxide layer degradation" as search terms:

flash memory oxide layer degradation - Google Search

...and second using equally simple "flash memory oxide layer failure" as search terms:

flash memory oxide layer failure - Google Search

...

Beyond that, Ill ask you to provide sources that a failure in the oxidized layer is the reason errors develop and that these errors cannot be overwritten in an attempt to correct them.

Refer to the multiple resources in the two Google search links above.

 

[Deacon]

Ok, just to provide an update on the original reason for this thread, I had been using Samsung EVO Select 128GB cards with consistent success for quite a while, and I put a 128GB Samsung PRO Endurance 128GB in my wife’s car since that one gets a lot more use. No problems, still working great.

However, I decided I wanted more room for mine to keep parking mode recordings longer and so on. So near the end of August I figured I’d just get a 256GB version of the Samsung EVO Select. Ordered from Amazon, sold by Amazon, delivered in retail packaging, not likely to be counterfeit cards.



However, pretty quickly it started consistently making those odd beeps. I noticed some recordings were unexplainable like 50 seconds instead of 3 minutes. That’s why I created the thread. Per recommendations here I tested the write speed and found it to be only about 1.5MB/sec. Not good.

I went ahead and exchanged it for a new one at the end of November after convicting an Amazon rep to do me a solid (after the 30 day return window). Popped it into the little Dell laptop I have for work, and it was reading 25MB/sec write speed. Seems like it should be capable of more, but maybe that’s just my laptop’s limitation. Either way plenty for the dashcam.

Very quickly, though, it started beeping again. Sure enough, I brought it in and on the laptop it tested out at 1.5MB or so. Yikes. Ok, so let me do a full format using the official SDCard Formatter utility. Took ages, and I let it run overnight. Guess what? Back up to 25MB/sec write speed again.

But I have no interest in playing this game. I don’t know why these 256GB EVO Select cards are behaving like this. So I went ahead and ordered a 256GB SanDisk High Endurance U3, which is the largest they make in that line. Cost about the same as the EVO Select cards, ~$35. It tested out a little higher, about 26.5MB/sec. The EVO Select is going back for a refund at this point. If the SanDisk High Endurance turns out to be good, I’ll probably get one for my wife’s car, too, to double that storage space.

 

[DT MI]

Per recommendations here I tested the write speed and found it to be only about 1.5MB/sec. Not good.
.....
Very quickly, though, it started beeping again. Sure enough, I brought it in and on the laptop it tested out at 1.5MB or so. Yikes. Ok, so let me do a full format using the official SDCard Formatter utility. Took ages, and I let it run overnight. Guess what? Back up to 25MB/sec write speed again.

Interesting for sure. I had a Samsung EVO Select 512GB that displayed the same extremely slow write speeds right out of the package. Difference is once I did the low-level format it's been good ever since. (Actually, I had to do the low-level format twice. I suspect the first one that was running overnight may have been interrupted by Windows doing a reboot to apply updates.)

The following is a portion of a dialogue I had with SG (jokiin) regarding the issue as it first showed up like you observed with 'short' files being recorded and it appeared to be a camera problem.

Since the second low-level format the card has been rock solid.

After I thought this issue was dead and gone there was an interesting development. I contacted Amazon about a warranty exchange on the Samsung card and was told that since it's beyond the 30 day return window any exchange would have to be done with the manufacturer. I was in the process of getting all my documentation together (sales receipt, specifications, test results, etc.).

After testing with the X2Pro+ I also did some with the DC as a point of comparison and noticed that after being in the DC the write performance on the card went from ~1.8MB/s to ~8.7MB/s - interesting to say the least since all I did when going to the DC was an in-camera format.

This led me to do a more rigorous and controlled test protocol which included eventually doing a low-level format using SDFormatter. After the low-level format write performance improved exponentially (almost twice as fast as the SanDisk card I bought as a replacement). It certainly appears there was a problem with the card initially that was corrected by the low-level format (but still has me scratching my head as to why it went from ~1.8MB/s to ~8.7MB/s just doing an in camera format in the DC).

The result summary is below. I ran multiple tests for each scenario but show only one of each since there was no meaningful difference between them. All testing done on the same computer, using the same adapter and same test parameters. (Redundant data redacted for readability.)

Samsung 512GB Test 1
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
CrystalDiskMark 3.0.3 x64 (C) 2007-2013 hiyohiyo
Crystal Dew World : http://crystalmark.info/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* MB/s = 1,000,000 byte/s [SATA/300 = 300,000,000 byte/s]
Sequential Read : 85.084 MB/s
Sequential Write : 1.862 MB/s
Random Read 512KB : 76.900 MB/s
Random Write 512KB : 1.864 MB/s
Test : 100 MB [G: 0.0% (0.0/476.8 GB)] (x5)
Date : 2019/09/10 11:21:50
OS : Windows 7 Professional SP1 [6.1 Build 7601] (x64)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Samsung 512GB Test (After use in 'DC')
Sequential Read : 86.104 MB/s
Sequential Write : 8.729 MB/s
Random Read 512KB : 85.491 MB/s
Random Write 512KB : 8.153 MB/s
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Samsung 512GB Test (After quick format with SDFormatter)
Sequential Read : 87.894 MB/s
Sequential Write : 8.649 MB/s
Random Read 512KB : 78.931 MB/s
Random Write 512KB : 8.172 MB/s
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Samsung 512GB after low level format with SDFormatter
Sequential Read : 85.907 MB/s
Sequential Write : 76.343 MB/s
Random Read 512KB : 77.405 MB/s
Random Write 512KB : 44.613 MB/s
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
h2tstw after low level format with SDFormatter
Warning: Only 488287 of 488288 MByte tested.
Test finished without errors.
You can now delete the test files *.h2w or verify them again.
Writing speed: 66.2 MByte/s
Reading speed: 73.0 MByte/s
H2testw v1.4

 

[kamkar]

I got a brand new 256 GB Adata endurance card, that right out of the box only did like 20-30 MB/s speeds and failed in my SG9663DR system, and it should do 80.
Ran it over with sd formatter and speeds was more like it, but still even if i have not tried that card in many dashcams every one i tried did not like it, but in my Dji osmo action i can hit the card with 4K/60 footage at 100 mbit and that seem to be fine, though i have not filled the card there or made any lengthy recordings, but the ones i have made have all been fine.