Smoke Haze over Melbourne ( 14 Jan 2020 )

[Dashmellow]

Well twice the voltage gives half the transmission losses, which gets important when you are using a lot of power for heating. UK is 240 V single phase, or 480 V (415) for the 3 phase.

I was just considering that might be an explanation for your idea that "Green electricity is another delusional fantasy when it comes to residential heating in an extreme cold climate.". If that was not the explanation then maybe you could explain the real reason?

The more you indulge in pharisaical boasting and taunts, the more you sound like a bratty little schoolboy, Nigel.

That you would have us believe the UK to be some sort of ecological Shangri-La, which it most certainly isn't, is the reason I characterize your UK eco-braggadocio as a green delusional fantasy, massive international energy imports, including Russian coal aside.

The more you slight other nations, typically the USA, but more recently Australia and now Canada, the more you break the rules of this forum.

The more you habitually engage in manufacturing petty, gratuitous disputes, such as in this particular case, "your (USA's) electricity is only half the power of ours!" and the more you keep these sort of provocations going day after day, the more it becomes trolling. And, ultimately, Nigel, trolling usually ends up getting people banned from internet forums, as you know all too well.

It's really about time for you to pack it in and cut it out.

 

[kamkar]

Lets just sweep in front of our own doors, then when it is nice and sparkly clean there, we can lend our manpower and cleaning tools to whoever not reached that far.
Pointing fingers for sure is what big coal and big oil want, more than a lot of other things i can think off.

 

[Nigel]

That you would have us believe the UK to be some sort of ecological Shangri-La, which it most certainly isn't, is the reason I characterize your UK eco-braggadocio as a green delusional fantasy, massive international energy imports, including Russian coal aside.

Outdated article, the coal power station mentioned in the article as using russian coal has been closed down, electricity from coal was 2.2% of the total last year and will be zero soon.

 

[SawMaster]

My area is fairly well and densely populated overall, yet there are still some areas around here without electrical grid power and a few people do live there. Out west where distances between settlements can be much greater, there are many thousands of people living without access to grid power. It's nothing new being off-grid, everyone everywhere was living that way 200 years ago And wood is the nearly universal heating source in those places Wood is also by far our best (and perhaps only) renewable fuel resource. We can use solar, hydro, and nuclear energy but we can't renew it, only use whatever of it we can access, and we don't have the necessary time to create new petroleum or coal fields via human intervention. Properly managed forests can provide huge amounts of energy sustainably but we're well past the point where they can sustain all of our current heating and power needs.

The best and perhaps only solution is to reduce our resource consumption levels to the bare minimum but nobody is going to completely and willingly go back to a 200 year old way of living Or we can self-limit our population to a sustainable number with everyone living only in places where solar, hydro, geo-thermal, or nuclear power generation is feasible. Again that ain't gonna happen So in essence, at some point in the future humanity is going to be screwed and we've done that to our own selves, and if human-caused global warming is real then we're only bringing that end to ourselves sooner. We humans ain't as smart as we think we are

Phil

 

[Nigel]

Wood is also by far our best (and perhaps only) renewable fuel resource. We can use solar, hydro, and nuclear energy but we can't renew it, only use whatever of it we can access, ...

To renew your wood you need solar power collected by the tree leaves, wood is just a storage system.

You can also collect and store solar from photovoltaic panels, and wind from turbines, using other means of storage. Lithium batteries are becoming more common and conversion to hydrogen gas for storage is looking like the main method for the future. These can be used for small communities not connected to the national electricity grid.

Or even quite large communities: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01...st-wa-town-to-be-powered-by-hydrogen/11870472

 

[Dashmellow]

Outdated article, the coal power station mentioned in the article as using russian coal has been closed down, electricity from coal was 2.2% of the total last year and will be zero soon.

So Nigel, apparently you're still at it, all the while completely ignoring the more salient points of my post entirely, particularly my commentary about "massive international energy imports".

While I do applaud the UK's efforts to reduce and eventually eliminate its reliance on coal mining and oil drilling, along with efforts to transition to renewables, your assertions that the UK is now some sort of carbon free Eco-paradise are belied by the facts. Significant amounts of the UK's former coal and oil production have simply been replaced to a large extent by imports.

For example, the data shows that after an interim peak in 2013 coal imports to the UK declined considerably for a three year period until embarking on a renewed and significant multi-year uptrend in 2016 that so far appears to remain on an acclivitous path. According to the latest available data, 2018 saw an increase of 33.4% in coal imports with corresponding increases in crude oil, processed petroleum products and natural gas. UK coal imports have decreased from certain countries, most notably Australia but they have increased from other nations commensurate with the current overall uptrend. One way or another, despite the skewed narrative these billions of dollars in fossil fuel imports translate into UK carbon emissions.

 

[Dashmellow]

Nigel, I do agree with you about the merits of hydrogen power. In fact, it is something that has been of interest to me for a very long time, ever since I saw a film decades ago about a man named Roger G. Billings, a scientist credited with being the inventor of the first hydrogen powered car along with important related technology and founder of Billings Energy Corporation in Provo, Utah.

Aside from the early hydrogen powered cars, buses and other vehicles he designed and built a key technology was the use of metal hydrides inside hydrogen storage tanks than made them 100% explosion proof. He is also the inventor of early computer network technology all the way back in the mid 1970s.

Billings went on to create other interesting hydrogen technologies such as a home run on hydrogen all the way back in 1975 and he authored several early books about hydrogen power. Roger Billings was probably the first person to start exploring and promoting the idea of using hydrogen power in 1966 and he has often been referred to as “The Hydrogen Man”.

https://www.rogerebillings.com/the-hydrogen-man/

http://www.rogerebillings.com/hydrogen/

Another fascinating guy is Daniel G. Nocera, a chemist and Professor of Energy in the Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology at Harvard University.

He is the inventor of the “Artificial Leaf” which is basically artificial photosynthesis. With his invention, using a catalyst, you can create hydrogen directly from water using sunlight.

I first learned of him about ten or so years ago when he and some colleagues founded a company called Sun Catalytix with seed money from ARPA-E (Advanced Research Projects Administration – (Energy). Unfortunately they were never able to get the company off the ground due to the costs involved in bringing the technology to market but research continues.

This old video tells some of the story as Nocera shows how it basically works and demonstrates the potential uses.

 

[jokiin]

This old video tells some of the story as Nocera shows how it basically works and demonstrates the potential uses.

interesting video, not something I'd heard of before, I wonder how they've progressed in the 10 years since

 

[Dashmellow]

interesting video, not something I'd heard of before, I wonder how they've progressed in the 10 years since

They've made technical progress but unfortunately, not commercial progress (so far).

All I really know at this point is what the above linked Wikipedia page has so say:

"In 2011, Nocera and his research team announced the creation of the first practical "artificial leaf": an advanced solar cell the size of a playing card, capable of splitting water into oxygen and hydrogen with ten times the efficiency of natural photosynthesis.The silicon solar cell was coated with a thin film of cobalt catalyst on one side, over a protective membrane to prevent the silicon from oxidizing, and a nickel-based catalyst on the other side, to split hydrogen from water. The artificial leaf was featured in Time magazine's list of the top 50 inventions of 2011.

However, in May 2012, Sun Catalytix stated that it would not be scaling up the prototype. The predominant determiner of its cost, the construction of the photovoltaic infrastructure, was still considered too expensive to displace existing energy sources. Nocera was reportedly "daunted by the challenges of bringing the technology to market."Nonetheless, researchers at Harvard and elsewhere continue to investigate the possibilities of the artificial leaf, looking for ways to reduce costs and increase efficiency."

It is quite possible that the equation he mentions about the cost being "too expensive to displace existing energy sources" may have changed favorably since 2011, but I don't know. I'm hoping to find more information about the current state of affairs with Sun Catalytix and the artificial leaf. As far as I know the company Sun Catalytix is currently inactive, but as I mentioned, research appears to be ongoing.

 

[jokiin]

at least it shows what's technically possible, glimmer of hope for the future

 

[Nigel]

embarking on a renewed and significant multi-year uptrend in 2016 that so far appears to remain on an acclivitous path. According to the latest available data, 2018 saw an increase of 33.4% in coal imports...

The latest real data:

• Total demand for coal in the third quarter of 2019, at 1.6 million tonnes, was 23 per cent lower than in the third quarter of 2018. Consumption by electricity generators was down by 58 per cent to 0.3 million tonnes.
• Overall coal production in the third quarter of 2019 fell to 0.5 million tonnes down 17 per cent compared with the third quarter of 2018.
• Coal imports fell 40 per cent on levels shown in the third quarter of 2018. This was the lowest value in the published time series covering 21 years.

Nigel, I do agree with you about the merits of hydrogen power.

UK and Germany mull boosting cooperation on hydrogen production with offshore wind:

UK and Germany mull boosting cooperation on hydrogen production with offshore wind

www.cleanenergywire.org

 

[Nigel]

may have changed favorably since 2011, but I don't know.

We are heading towards the point where we will have a big excess of wind power overnight in order to have sufficient capacity during the day, and hydrogen production is a good use for it however inefficient hydrogen generation is. Ideally we would use it for pumped storage but we already have enough to charge our existing pump storage and a big increase in pump storage is impractical in the UK, we don't have enough high altitude water, so hydrogen it will be, the overnight wind power is effectively free and zero carbon.

Zero carbon operation of the electricity system by 2025 means a fundamental change to how our system was designed to operate; integrating newer technologies right across the system – from large-scale off-shore wind to domestic scale solar panels – and increasing demand-side participation, using new smart digital systems to manage and control the system in real-time.

Denmark is going to build wind turbines dedicated to hydrogen production:

https://www.nordicenergy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/15.Lykke-Mulvad-Jeppesen.ver2_.pdf

 

[Dashmellow]

The latest real data:



View attachment 50303

View attachment 50304





UK and Germany mull boosting cooperation on hydrogen production with offshore wind:

UK and Germany mull boosting cooperation on hydrogen production with offshore wind

www.cleanenergywire.org

I'm not buying it. While electricity generation from coal and other fossil fuels are down, coal still projected to be 22% of production going forward into 2020.

The air in the UK truly must be the sweetest on earth.

It's just amazing Nigel, your vainglory knows no bounds!

 

[Nigel]

coal still projected to be 22% of production going forward into 2020.

If you go back 20 years then I'm sure you will find a different projection!
Your graph is labeled "DECC", must be outdated since they no longer exist!

 

[Dashmellow]

You know, Nigel, with a conciliatory post to you I tried my best to steer this thread back on course into a potentially interesting discussion about the history and future of hydrogen power. But no, instead, your response (as usual) was a once again, a boastful diatribe about the alleged superiority of UK energy policies. And you are STILL at it! How many days have you kept this going now?

Considering the sad state of affairs with Britain these days where many of us on the outside find it painful to witness the self inflicted demise of your country otherwise known as Brexit, it is remarkable that you find reason to be so arrogant as to feel so superior at a time like this. Well, hey, the ensuing long term economic decline in store for your nation should certainly help your country's efforts to save on energy expenses and carbon emissions. Maybe you can even breed some more seaweed eating, fartless sheep fed vitamin supplements to help the cause?,

 

[SawMaster]

the overnight wind power is effectively free and zero carbon.

Not quite- there's carbon emissions involved with the making of the turbines, generating equipment, wiring, and it's manufacturing, installation and upkeep have economic costs. Even with that, it is a great source of energy which is as clean and impact-free as we're capable of doing right now. And hydrogen is probably the same for energy storage.

Practicality is the problem with energy production and storage which also includes economic practicality. We have many approaches, means, and methods which can be viable in most places but none are perfect enough to be a single solution yet. Hydrogen seems to be the most promising of all the approaches.

Interestingly, some people in Ohio and Pennsylvania USA who have allowed natural gas wells to be drilled on their property receive free natural gas for their personal usage as part of the leasing terms. There are some restrictions involved but as long the well on your land is operating you pay nothing for heating and cooking fuels.

Phil

 

[Nigel]

I guess dashcams don't work well in these conditions, from 2:13 :

Destructive hail hits the capital during a severe thunderstorm (Photo: David Foote/Auspic)

Trusted and independent source of local, national and world news. In-depth analysis, business, sport, weather and more.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Dashmellow]

Devastating sudden hailstorms are hardly a new phenomenon. The English certainly learned this during their failed attempt to storm the gates of Chartres during the Hundred Years' War.

The storm was so devastating that it caused more English casualties than any of the previous battles of the war.

King Edward III was convinced that the storm was a sign from God!

Deadly 14th Century Hailstorm Killed Over 1000 Soldiers and 6000 Horses -Easter Monday, 13 th April 1360

 

[Nigel]

Devastating sudden hailstorms are hardly a new phenomenon.

Yes, you can probably find a historical dust storm too to match the ones Oz is having at the moment:

Driving into a dust storm

Trusted and independent source of local, national and world news. In-depth analysis, business, sport, weather and more.

www.abc.net.au

And a firestorm.

The difference is that Oz currently has all of them at the same time, no need to search back over 600 years, their climate is becoming more extreme.

 

[Dashmellow]

Smoke particles in the upper atmosphere are a possible cause of increased rainstorm and hail but the subject is still a matter of ongoing research and debate. It certainly isn't clear that such effects are as immediate and localized as you assert. No objective conclusions about the atmospheric effects of the current Australian bushfires can be reached until a full, long term analysis has been completed and this research has barely begun.

So, Nigel, "their climate"? You apparently would have everyone believe that Australia's climate is somehow completely isolated from the rest of the planet. While it is true that they are below the equator on a different part of the globe and the Australian climate has always been rather different than in Europe, it is quite laughable how, despite your arrogant boastings about the superiority of UK energy policies, your country too has been, and continues to be pummeled by multiple extremely devastating recent weather events. And these events are increasing in severity and frequency across the UK! It's been fascinating to observe, Nigel, how on every single topic you comment on, no matter what, you are sorely unable to appreciate that anything exists outside your tiny, provincial, UK bubble of perception.

For weeks now, in multiple threads on this forum you miss no opportunity to deride Australia while it is in the very midst of struggling with a devastating national emergency, always with a sneering and condemnatory "blame the victim" mentality, and all the while acting with a deplorable air of arrogance and unwarranted superiority. In this case, you've simply taken a news item about a fairly common worldwide phenomenon such as a severe hail storm and immediately pinned the blame for the hailstorm on the current Aussie bushfires with absolutely no proof other than guilt by association with the fact that these fires are happening concurrently. One can speculate all one wants but so far no legitimate scientists have even begun to investigate today's hailstorm or reach any conclusions.