(UK) Dashcam use on PRIVATE property

Mesopause

New Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Country
United Kingdom
I would appreciate any considered responses from those more familiar with recent legal cases in the UK, EU or territories aligned with the UK, where legal precedent is more relevant.

(1) A neighbour (only one) has a short, private right of way over private land. This was created decades before dashcams existed, and so could never have been in the contemplation of a party to include in the grant of right to pass.

(2) The neighbour has a long history, on police record, of being obsessed with capturing adjoining property and has even been reported for taking photos on private land at 1am.

(3) The neighbour now uses dashcam footage to feed his irrational hatred of the other property owner. He is seen to press the 'protect' button whenever he sees the owner of the private property walking around, going about his business in a lawful, peaceful manner. Many of these captures include children.

So, my question is really about any precedent or other legal knowledge that means, at the very least, the use of such footage captured on private land where no consent to capture has been granted would be inadmissible for evidential purposes and, better, that the use of his dashcam for surveillance of private citizens on their private land is in fact unlawful.

If you want to rant on about throwing things at the camera, I don't want to hear from you.
 

c4rc4m

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
777
Reaction score
255
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Viofo WR1, A119 Pro. VicoVation Opia 2, Mobius 1
No-one other than a Solicitor current in this area of Law can give you a definite answer , but to look at your points in turn with a non binding opinion (I accept no liability for inaccuracy - it's up to you to take formal legal advice from a Solicitor before taking any action and this here is merely opinion and not to be relied up as accurate or used / treated as formal advice). In my opinion:

1. A right of way is a right of way. If one exists in his favour, then he has the right to pass. If it's to access his property adjacent to yours via eg a shared driveway, then it's more likely an Easement and is a legal right given in the Legal Title to your property (Deeds or Registration). Either way, he has a right to use it if it exists in his favour as the owner of the adjacent property. It seems the existence of the right of way is not in dispute here.

2. I believe there's nothing illegal with taking photos at any time of the day provided he's not taking them specifically of you / your family inside the rooms of your house or repeatedly of you on the non shared parts of the property or following your movements in the public street.

Regarding his right to film, this may help somewhat, although it's CCTV specific and not dashcam:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...stic-cctv-using-cctv-systems-on-your-property

I'd say it's a difficult one as it might all hinge on proving the purpose of the filming and where the camera is pointing. So it might be best to seek formal legal advice. There's nothing illegal to my knowledge to film the front of your property for crime prevention. There's nothing illegal to my knowledge if the camera catches activity in the street or part of an adjacent garden provided the camera is aimed in such a way as to primarily protect the property it's fitted on.

There's a potential further problem here in that he could argue that because you're in a dispute together, he believes you might commit an illegal act such as obstructing his right of way or damaging his vehicle and that's why he's using his dashcam in parking mode. It's almost certainly legal to film for crime prevention. There's nothing illegal I'm aware of about using a dashcam to film 24/7 in parking mode with the aim of protecting the vehicle it's fitted to.

You might stand a better chance of showing some form of harassment if you can prove he's taking stills from the dashcam using the emergency button for no reason ie where no damage is being caused / illegal activity seen.

Just my opinion though.
 
OP
M

Mesopause

New Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Country
United Kingdom
Thanks for the first reply.

There is a bit of 'mission creep', though. There is no dispute. There is only a question as to the legality or otherwise of using a dashcam on private property.

You say "There's nothing illegal to my knowledge if the camera catches activity in the street or part of an adjacent garden provided the camera is aimed in such a way as to primarily protect the property it's fitted on. "

There is a definitive case from the Czech Republic that clarified capturing public areas when the primary purpose was private security was and remains unlawful - unless the user has registered as a Data Controller with the ICO, and ensure compliance through storage/signage, etc.

You also say "that's why he's using his dashcam in parking mode ". Look at the OP. There is no mention of anyone using the camera in such a way. It is used whilst crossing the way.

It's also clearly unlawful to point any form of camera at a private property that is not your own, because this would constitute harassment.

Any more?
 

dash riposki

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,767
Reaction score
3,194
Location
Isaan
Country
Thailand
Dash Cam
too many
Build a high wall on either side of the right of way. (Assuming it's not KM long)
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
12,230
Reaction score
6,212
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1, A129, B1W, B2W
It's also clearly unlawful to point any form of camera at a private property that is not your own, because this would constitute harassment.
That is not what that says, it is saying that it might be unlawful if it was harassment, not that it is harassment.

Realistically in the UK anyone can use a personal camera for personal use under any circumstances without issue, with the exception of a small number of government properties, or if it contravenes privacy law.

Laws from other parts of the EU do not apply, some countries are much more strict.

It is only going to become a privacy issue if the images include a private area and are published or shared, and include something that you might reasonably want to keep private, hence google streetview blurs out number plates and faces, but nothing else. Remember that trespass is not illegal, so if the area in question is just land rather than a private area there is nothing to stop anyone visiting and videoing the area.
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
12,230
Reaction score
6,212
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1, A129, B1W, B2W
An attorney (solicitor) acquaintance many years ago gave me this advice about obtaining legal opinion/guidance from the internet - "DON'T".
All solicitors will say that, they would be out of work if everybody used the internet!
If solicitors always gave the correct answer then there would be no need for the courts!

Sometimes the internet can give better advice than many solicitors will.
The problem is knowing when you have good advice, bad advice can come from any source.
 

c4rc4m

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
777
Reaction score
255
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Viofo WR1, A119 Pro. VicoVation Opia 2, Mobius 1
Mesopause, no-one is likely going to give you a definitive answer because it would leave them potentially liable if any part of it was inaccurate, hence why I was deliberately a bit vague, and hence why I have given a disclaimer that you need to seek professional advice and shouldn't rely on anything written here which is just opinion, not necessarily fact.

I also think you're concerning yourself too much with law in other EU nations. My understanding is not all EU laws are the same or implemented the same. Nations in the EU can still have their own laws in areas not regulated by the EU. In most countries these constitute the majority of the laws. EU law only makes up a fraction of the local laws.

Where EU laws exist, there are Regulations where the EU makes the law, and Directives, where the EU doesn't make the law, but directs each member state to make a law to give effect to the Directive. With a Directive therefore there is room for different nations to give effect to it in different ways, with different laws and detail. All of that is allowed provided the aim of the Directive is achieved. So it's possible for there to be no EU laws in many areas and for there to be EU laws in others, that are different in many ways, in every nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)

I believe the CCTV link I posted above gives you a good feeling for CCTV. As for dashcams, so far as I'm aware, they aren't regulated at all (CCTV has data protection laws for commercial users and guidance for non commercial). Don't forget a Dashcam in ordinary use picks up other motorists, pedestrians and children on film on the public street and in the privacy of their cars. All of that appears to be permitted in the UK. I'm not sure that just because it's private land it negates their use when driving on it anymore than someone using CCTV on private land.

You've now given us more information saying your concerns are that he has a dash camera in his car whilst crossing his right of way. I can think of nothing apparently illegal in doing this. He has the right to drive on the right of way from what you've said, and so far as I'm aware, he has every right to use the dashcam to record his progress with his dashcam for evidential purposes should some kind of accident or incident occur whilst doing that.

It's also clearly unlawful to point any form of camera at a private property that is not your own, because this would constitute harassment.

Any more?

I think you're in danger of becoming your own Solicitor here from internet snippets of information. As I indicated above, CCTV is regulated but even with CCTV, my understanding is it can capture other property / the street, provided it's aimed at and it's primary purpose is to protect your property. What isn't allowed is deliberately pointing it at your neighbours property. However, that is CCTV. I think you'll find someone is perfectly entitled to walk down your road and take a photograph or record video of your property / house from the public highway. I think you'll find such an action only constitutes a nuisance if they're doing it frequently, for the purposes of harassing you, or are doing something else illegal such as watching you undress in your bedroom.

Again, I'm not giving specific legal advice, just my opinion on how it appears to me. If you want specific advice you can rely on, a Solicitor is your friend.
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
12,230
Reaction score
6,212
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1, A129, B1W, B2W
I believe the CCTV link I posted above gives you a good feeling for CCTV. As for dashcams, so far as I'm aware, they aren't regulated at all (CCTV has data protection laws for commercial users and guidance for non commercial). Don't forget a Dashcam in ordinary use picks up other motorists, pedestrians and children on film on the public street and in the privacy of their cars. All of that appears to be permitted in the UK. I'm not sure that just because it's private land it negates their use when driving on it anymore than someone using CCTV on private land.
A dashcam stores information and so is covered by the data protection laws exactly the same as CCTV. Most of the CCTV stuff is guidelines which where they are appropriate to dashcams should also apply. The data protection laws have exceptions for private use so for both for dashcams and CCTV there are no real restrictions that come from the data protection laws. Privacy laws are a different matter.
 

kamkar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Messages
26,517
Reaction score
15,053
Country
Denmark
Dash Cam
10 years, many dashcams
Here you can film / take photos of just about anything in the public realm, but you cant take your camera and lift it up over a hedge or fence so you can take photos or video inside another mans property, as you cant stick your camera in his windows.
But there are no problem walking on public road and take a regular photo of every house you pass, but there might be a issue if you decide to share those photos in public, not least say if the house owners wife are sunbathing on the front lawn.
Of course being there she cant expect 100 % privacy as people would have to close their eyes to pass, but that dont mean its okay to take photos of her / the house and her and surely not share them.
So you can stand on your property and aim a camera in the direction of the neighbor and take all the pictures you like, but it might be problematic if you use a big ass Zoom lens so you are in his property cuz then you are stalking.
And if the neighbor only come out to take pictures when you are outside, well then it is clearly stalking.
All of this are of course ambiguous to a large degree and will be hard to prove, and i think the problem are the same in the UK as your politicians like ours are just as not interested in doing the job right.

I do hate when things are complicated when it could be really simple, then you know politicians have been at work,,,,,,, filthy bastards.
 

dash riposki

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
3,767
Reaction score
3,194
Location
Isaan
Country
Thailand
Dash Cam
too many
This is so vague. I am picturing an easement that covers a driveway or something through somebody elses property and assuming the cam is mounted in a car, but that may not be the situation.
 

DT MI

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
5,803
Reaction score
4,757
Location
Michigan
Country
United States
Dash Cam
More than my wife thinks I need.
All solicitors will say that, they would be out of work if everybody used the internet!
If solicitors always gave the correct answer then there would be no need for the courts!...
More likely if everyone got their legal advice from the internet real lawyers would have more work trying to straighten out the messes created. No different than getting medical advice from the internet versus going to the doctor.
 

kamkar

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2013
Messages
26,517
Reaction score
15,053
Country
Denmark
Dash Cam
10 years, many dashcams
For the life of me, me and doctors cant talk to each-other, its like i speak Danish and they only seem to be able to understand the bushman click language.
Every time i leave a doctor ( not often i visit one ) then i swear i can hear the SOB giggle as i leave, i do not like those overpaid SOB's.
 

DT MI

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
5,803
Reaction score
4,757
Location
Michigan
Country
United States
Dash Cam
More than my wife thinks I need.
For the life of me, me and doctors cant talk to each-other, its like i speak Danish and they only seem to be able to understand the bushman click language...
For sure some of them failed basic communication when going to school. To me good medical (or legal) skills have as much to do with communicating with the patient/client as anything else.
 

c4rc4m

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
777
Reaction score
255
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Viofo WR1, A119 Pro. VicoVation Opia 2, Mobius 1
A dashcam stores information and so is covered by the data protection laws exactly the same as CCTV. Most of the CCTV stuff is guidelines which where they are appropriate to dashcams should also apply. The data protection laws have exceptions for private use so for both for dashcams and CCTV there are no real restrictions that come from the data protection laws. Privacy laws are a different matter.

This seems to suggest not for a camera in a private vehicle, and that CCTV ICO rules don't apply to dashcams, but I'm only linking, not stating it to be a definitive answer or true and correct:

https://www.griffinhouseconsultancy.co.uk/dashboard-cams-need-notify-ico/

It appears the crux issue might be whether or not you have a right to expect privacy on a right of way over your property. I wouldn't know but my instinct seems to be that provided the filming is incidental to the use of the right of way by the car, then probably not. Again the only person who is going to know is probably a Solicitor with specialist knowledge in this area.
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
12,230
Reaction score
6,212
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1, A129, B1W, B2W
This seems to suggest not for a camera in a private vehicle, and that CCTV ICO rules don't apply to dashcams, but I'm only linking, not stating it to be a definitive answer or true and correct:

https://www.griffinhouseconsultancy.co.uk/dashboard-cams-need-notify-ico/

It appears the crux issue might be whether or not you have a right to expect privacy on a right of way over your property. I wouldn't know but my instinct seems to be that provided the filming is incidental to the use of the right of way by the car, then probably not. Again the only person who is going to know is probably a Solicitor with specialist knowledge in this area.
Possibly if the cameras were arranged so that they recorded the number plates and drivers faces of every vehicle that made the journey along the road and the data was then logged in the form of time, date, vehicle, driver and the data kept over several years then there would be some serious privacy issues, but you don't actually need the cameras to do that so the issue is not the cameras but the data collection.
 

jokiin

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
50,472
Reaction score
28,600
Location
Sydney, Australia ~ Shenzhen, China
Country
Australia
Dash Cam
Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He is seen to press the 'protect' button whenever he sees the owner of the private property walking around, going about his business in a lawful, peaceful manner. Many of these captures include children.

how close do you need to be to determine that he is pressing the protect button?

keep in mind that whatever is recorded is there whether that button is pressed or not
 

Nigel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2014
Messages
12,230
Reaction score
6,212
Location
Devon
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Gitup F1, A129, B1W, B2W
how close do you need to be to determine that he is pressing the protect button?

keep in mind that whatever is recorded is there whether that button is pressed or not
Peering through the window, watching everything he does while he is located on his private property, and making notes about everything he does, every time he does it!
 

flank

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
1,719
Reaction score
832
Location
California
Country
United States
Dash Cam
VIOFO A119S
Why don't you people settle your differences like men inside of hiding behind cameras and windows :unsure:

 
Top