UK Legal placement on windscreen

Discussion in 'Legal Questions' started by Tim Watts, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. Tim Watts

    Tim Watts New Member

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    MOT Special Notice 2-2014 states:

    "Where any damage or obstruction does not impair the driver’s view of the road, the vehicle should
    pass. If it only affects the driver’s view of the sky or the bonnet then this is not to be considered a reason
    for rejection. This is a general assessment of driver’s view – you are not required to speculate on the
    effects on tall or short drivers. Any manufacturer’s original design characteristics are to be accepted."

    I want to fit a Blackvue DR650S-1CH to a Hyundai Tucson. The Tucson has a large enclosure behind the mirror for rain and road sensors, so I can't get the camera right behind.

    However, if I come down about 3-4" from the top of the screen, about 1" into the swept area, there seems to be a position where I cannot see any of the camer from a normal driving position: it's completely masked by the left side of the mirror.

    Do you guys think it is a fair assessment that if the cam is totally obscured by the mirror, then it is de-facto legal? It is possible to see if if leaning left, but for a typical road (mountains excepted) I would say even then it only obscures the sky.

    I figure if I get it right from an MOT point of view, then no policeman should have any issues either.

    Cheers for any thoughts!

    Tim
     
  2. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

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    if you think it's an issue take it off the bracket when you go for the test, the bit that still sticks to the window when the camera is off is unlikely to even be noticed
     
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  3. Tim Watts

    Tim Watts New Member

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    Point taken - but I really want to be 100% sure it's road legal. If it won't pass a test, I'd be unhappy about its position :)
     
  4. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    Just make sure that it doesn't encroach on the area swept by the wipers by more than 4cm, that should make it legal and pass the MOT. You do of course want the lens within the swept area so that it can see. Out of sight behind the mirror is best, but not essential for the MOT. If the screen is visible then use the screen saver so it is not a distraction, especially at night. Remember that it is not only you that drives your car, any decision needs to take into account the other people too.

    There may be a legal issue if the screen is visible since it can play back video, but it wont fail the MOT for that. It might fail if it was fitted when the car undergoes type approvals before the model is launched - a rule for the car manufacturer to worry about rather than you.
     
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  5. kindai

    kindai New Member

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    Put it where you like as long as its sensible. The police aren't going to pull you for it unless its smack in the middle of the driver side window. When you come for MOT just remove it or move it behind the mirror.
     
  6. Tim Watts

    Tim Watts New Member

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    Thank you both. It's a Blackvue DR650S so no screen. Because it's shaped like a bog roll, I have to have >4cm in the swept area to get the lens in the swept area, hence the question "what if you can't see it" :)
     
  7. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    Well I think the MOT situation is covered.
    I'm sure the police wouldn't object either ... except for any situation in which you are already going to get prosecuted, where they are likely to go over everything with a fine tooth comb with the intent of throwing the book at you. But at that point a camera that doesn't affect your view will probably be the least of your troubles.
     
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  8. 2000rpm

    2000rpm Well-Known Member

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    My solution has been to fit a Street Guardian SGZC12RC at the top of my windscreen behind the sun visor, and a JooVuu X tucked behind my rear view mirror. I also often have a cam on a mount that's screwed to the top of my dashboard, although such a location requires a cam that can operate upside-down and be set to invert its video.
    Both the SG-RC and JVX cams are completely out of my sight, while any dash-top cam I happen to have fitted is below my line of sight and not covered by windscreen laws.
    All our cars run two front cams (and one rear) just in case there's a malfunction with one of the cams, one of the memory cards, one of the power supplies or user error on my part.
     
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  9. Kip

    Kip Active Member

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    This was discussed a fair bit on this page here, might be worth a look:
    https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threa...ra-post-your-pictures.502/page-42#post-284876

    In the page linked above, another member states that my camera looks like it encroachs into the swept area of the screen. Both the entire camera and the entire mount are in the swept area, yet it passed an MOT just fine. The 4th image in my post shows this clearly as the windscreen is wet and the swept area is quite visible.

    If it definitely only obscures your view of the sky, then you're obstruction (the dashcam) is exempt and should pass an MOT. If it passes an MOT, I'm not sure how plod could ever argue to say your car is unroadworthy, dangerous or illegal. People stick and hang all sorts of obstructions in their windscreen, as long as you are sensible and adhere to the special notice, you should be fine. :) Keep a copy of the notice in your glovebox if you are concerned about what the police might think. As for the MOT, the best thing to do is ask an actual MOT tester or two about your cameras location.
     
  10. tabetha

    tabetha Active Member

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    My MOT tester asked me to turn the cam off, as he was not prepared to be filmed, he is very strict but fair wasn't bothered about position about 1" above dash on vauxhall meriva, but other tester wasn't bothered about it being on.
    When I got my Thinkware F770 I put it behind the mirror towards nearside, from behind wheel cannot be seen at all, I thought well the mirror is there anyway so not hiding any vision
     
  11. Kip

    Kip Active Member

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    Yeah when you're on their premises, they do have the right to not be filmed as it is no longer public space but private property. If you wanted to leave it on, really you should be asking for permission first. That way, if they say no, you can turn it off yourself and they won't have to tamper or fiddle with it if they notice it. Everyone is different, some people don't care about being on camera, others find it very intrusive and rude.
     
  12. tabetha

    tabetha Active Member

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    Oddly enough he didn't complain about F770, maybe lack of screen ?, but he could be in no doubt it was there as it spoke to him, when these are turned off manually they turn on each time the ignition is turned back on, so would be a ball ache to turn off each time, I would just cover lens area of screen if needed, other tester said he wasn't bothered as he should have been a film star any way ha ha
     
  13. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    All they need to do on most cars is open the bonnet to block the view!

    They are professionals doing a professional job in a workplace, not private individuals in a private residence, they should have no reason to not want to be filmed so I would be suspicious of anyone asking not to be, there are plenty of others who don't care any more than I care about the surveillance cameras in the shops.
     
  14. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. Why should anyone subject themselves to the possibility of their appearance or personal mannerisms being published online and mocked?

    And more seriously, anything that pressures a worker to behave differently than their normal, relaxed workflow can lead to mistakes or even accidents.

    I do engineering work in public and know how annoying and stupid people can be. They will put me and themselves in danger if I let them. I deal with this. But if someone started filming me I would tidy up and leave with the work undone. I have not agreed to be filmed directly, personally (as opposed to routine recording which already happens and I'm OK with) and I never will accept that as a part of any job. Unless they pay me A LOT.

    Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
     
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  15. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    I guess you will want to ban dashcams then?

    Just because a camera is recording doesn't mean people can "their appearance or personal mannerisms being published online and mocked", we have privacy laws to cover that. A workplace is not the same as a private residence.
     
  16. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    As I stated, the key differences are whether the camera is being specifically trained on you, and whether you can trust the camera owner to behave reasonably.

    A dashcam deliberately left running to monitor a specific person, with a high likelihood of being published for frivolous reasons falls into the unacceptable category in my book.

    It's my choice whether I would put up with that. And I wouldn't.

    Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
     
  17. tabetha

    tabetha Active Member

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    Personally if asked to turn off cam I would, or put patch over window etc, the people I use certainly aren't suspicious are very strict but thorough and fair, I do not want "easy" MOT's and have in the past reported two examiners who put full mot's on cars I bought that certainly should not have passed, one lost/had suspended his license.
    I personally wouldn't have any problem if anyone came up to me any where and started filming, frankly I would rather trust a stranger than our government, just my opinion yours may differ
     
  18. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

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    Whereas there's no right that I know of to film an MOT, with an MOT a person has a right to watch it being done and the tester cannot object. In fact I'm pretty sure by law, MOT stations are now required to have viewing areas where the car owner can stand and watch the MOT being done.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/standards-for-mot-vehicle-testing-stations-vts

     
  19. Rajagra

    Rajagra Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure that covers risk assessment of customer/viewing areas IF they exist, not a requirement to have a viewing area.

    Also it says: "all statutory testing must be carried out at the premises... without avoidable distraction or interruption." Having a gawping customer looking over your shoulder, asking questions, or just chatting would count as avoidable distraction and interruption.

    I've had tyres changed and brake discs changed recently at different places that do MOTs, both had customer waiting areas but no viewing areas. One was OK with me being in the work area. Not that I was bothered, but anyone who cares can ask and choose where to go.

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  20. Nigel

    Nigel Well-Known Member

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    That is a "must" as in a legal requirement.

    Since it is a place with public access you can assume that use of a dashcam is no problem unless you are specifically requested not to use one.
     
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