Using CF-100 rear camera to watch sides and back?

[Chris232]

Hi guys, new here so please excuse any questions I might have. =)

I'm still searching through the Blacksys sub-forum since purchasing one based on niko's excellent review (thanks niko!) and gibson99's brilliantly demonstrated installations (thanks gibson, your photos helped a lot for deciding how I would like to do the wiring install).

However, I haven't yet found anything on a set-up where anyone has installed the main (front) camera unit as normal with the rear view quite close to this but pointing down the length of the car.

Would this be detrimental to quality of the video or is there any glaring reasons I'm missing as to why this would be a bad idea? The primary motivator for having the cameras set up like this is due to residential car park vandalism unfortunately. Within the last 3-5 years as different people have moved in, space has become ever more of a precious resource and although there is a higher car park and a lower one, only the higher one, small may it be, has any marked bays for residents (along with garages for some of the houses near it).

This, coupled with not so great lighting and a few arguments, has seen keying and choicely placed screws/nails become the order of the day on random, sporadic dates. Sadly, although we thought with a few people moving out, that this had died down at last, it has come back and my own car has been keyed from front to back along one side only the past week and I came back from helping a friend with his project build this weekend to discover two brand new inch and a half long screws near two tyres.

Sorry for the ramble though! If anyone can shed some light on whether using the rear camera in the manner I have described is a bad/good/terrible idea, I would much appreciate it as I need a way to monitor movement around the whole of the car and keep costs down as I'm facing losing my job soon so don't have much money to spare.

Thanks in advance for any advice anyone might be able to spare.

Chris.

P.S. A link is here for those curious to the car and location (I was not sure how to create a thumbnail): http://puu.sh/rLrXM/4541a994ef.JPG

 

[SawMaster]

Given the equipment you've got I'd do it just that way. Because of the narrow FOV, aiming the remote cam straight back will not give a full side view on either side so if the problem isn't likely on one side you might mount it in a corner and aim it more toward the other side for better coverage there. If possible park where there will be enough light to get good vids; that remote cam is only 720P and it needs all the help it can get.

Phil

 

[Gibson99]

Another factor to consider is if the second camera can see a lot of the interior, it will autoexpose for the interior and in daylight, that will wash out the windows. Night should be OK though.

 

[Chris232]

Thanks for all the advice guys, much appreciated. Yes, I had forgotten about the likelihood of the rear camera autoexposing as it looks through the car but I'm 99% this happens during the twilight/night hours anyway as I work (well until the end of this month anyway) from 08:15 to 16:30 or thereabouts and am thus, usually gone from the car park from 07:35 or so depending on traffic.

That should hopefully make it a little easier in setting this up, though I am considering researching an audio recorder or two on the sides of the car (to detect scratches along the car etc.). Paranoid? Madness? Impossible? I would love to get any opinions on this as it *might* help a possible 'catch' if anyone tries to vandalise the car at night.

Of course, I'm very likely barking up the wrong tree! I'm somewhat of a noob at having to protect the car to this extent and this is the first dash cam system I have dumped money on so the emphasis is on getting this right as far as I am able to. The 'warring' over parking has caused some severe damage to the families vehicles in the past few years and if it can be headed off now, it would completely vindicate the money spent.

Above all, thanks for the tips provided already guys! Really appreciate the help you've all given.

Have a great evening,

Chris

 

[Gibson99]

If it's evening/night you need then maybe you're using the wrong camera setup. The rear cam isn't going to capture anyone's face except in bright daylight, especially if you have any form of window tint or privacy glass.

Maybe You could mount the main unit to the backside of the center mirror, essentially facing inward, and use the rear cam facing out the front screen. Then you could easily tilt the main unit to either side on the stock mount, and that camera has higher resolution and better night vision as well. Just have to put electrical tape over the blue LEDs so they don't attract attention.

 

[Chris232]

That had crossed my mind to be truthful. If I had more money I would have gone for a true 4-camera setup as that would let me neatly hide cabling in the usual areas, but I'll have to think about how I'm going to neatly do this install.

Thanks for the suggestion for reversing the camera roles though, helped to make my mind up. Now I just need to find where my electrical tape disappeared to! =)

 

[Gibson99]

That had crossed my mind to be truthful. If I had more money I would have gone for a true 4-camera setup as that would let me neatly hide cabling in the usual areas, but I'll have to think about how I'm going to neatly do this install.

Thanks for the suggestion for reversing the camera roles though, helped to make my mind up. Now I just need to find where my electrical tape disappeared to! =)

true 4 camera setups are typically LOW resolution - 640x480 if you're LUCKY. if you were going to spend that kind of money for something like this, i would recommend 4 individual high-resolution cameras, such as the new A118S (due out very soon) or even just the regular A119 (already out).

if you do end up mounting the main unit facing backwards, i'd also recommend painting/covering the silver trim around the perimeter of the camera, including the buttons. you could just use a black permanent marker, or maybe black tempera or acrylic paint so that it's not entirely permanent and could be scraped off if you wanted to.

 

[Chris232]

true 4 camera setups are typically LOW resolution - 640x480 if you're LUCKY. if you were going to spend that kind of money for something like this, i would recommend 4 individual high-resolution cameras, such as the new A118S (due out very soon) or even just the regular A119 (already out).

if you do end up mounting the main unit facing backwards, i'd also recommend painting/covering the silver trim around the perimeter of the camera, including the buttons. you could just use a black permanent marker, or maybe black tempera or acrylic paint so that it's not entirely permanent and could be scraped off if you wanted to.

I noticed this seemed to be a trend while looking around this evening on the forums at 4ch setups. At least from a technical standpoint, surely it shouldn't be too difficult to design/create a multichannel system that isn't pants...?

Anyway, I digress, I think it was your installation thread I was reading yesterday (EDIT: just checked and it was this one) where it was mentioned shading in the silver ring around the lens etc. I took note of this since we do get some characters in the area that would quite likely take a pot shot at the car should something attract them to it like a camera.

Thanks as always!

Chris

 

[Gibson99]

From a technical standpoint anything is possible. But a high quality 4ch 1080p setup won't be cheap, or compact.

 

[jokiin]

But a high quality 4ch 1080p setup won't be cheap, or compact.

correct for anything available right now

 

[2000rpm]

From a technical standpoint anything is possible. But a high quality 4ch 1080p setup won't be cheap, or compact.

With only a limited proportion of vehicles capable of mounting side cams (interference from airbags, interfering with rear window or rear door opening, difficulty keeping cables tidy) and with the sides being less likely to have important footage than front or rear, the market probably isn't large enough for manufacturers and developers to justify throwing a lot of money at 4ch.
If I was a manufacturer, I would only concentrate on 1ch.

 

[Gibson99]

With only a limited proportion of vehicles capable of mounting side cams (interference from airbags, interfering with rear window or rear door opening, difficulty keeping cables tidy) and with the sides being less likely to have important footage than front or rear, the market probably isn't large enough for manufacturers and developers to justify throwing a lot of money at 4ch.
If I was a manufacturer, I would only concentrate on 1ch.

I know what you mean about side airbags. I recently got a different vehicle and have so far only installed 2 A119 cameras: front and rear. i still need to re-route the power cord for the rear cam so it's not dangling - i had to leave a lot of slack so the back door could be opened without having to unplug the camera... but at least it's functional for now. I plan to install my two A118 cameras as side facing, running in 720p60 (partly because i'm cheap and will only be using old 16gb cards in them, plus 60fps will probably have less motion blur), but because this vehicle has side curtain airbags, i can't mount them anywhere near the doors or edges of the headliner - the airbags would turn them into projectiles if they went off. And the form factor of the A118 means I can't mount them lower on the B pillars - the video would be sideways in the only place they'd fit (camera laying sideways with its top facing the front of the vehicle and screen facing the interior of vehicle). So I'm planning to mount them both to the overhead console above the rearview mirror, near the map lights. I never use the storage bin there anyway - my sunglasses don't fit. This is better anyway since based on what i saw when i just held the camera up there to test it, it will give a wider view of the sides by looking through BOTH the side doors and the edge of the windshield (and maybe even show me driving, to show that i was not playing with my phone, for example). another advantage there is that i can easily press the lock button on them if I see something interesting, and hiding their power cords will still be pretty easy. and the console is much higher than the mirror, so they won't get in the way of using the rearview mirror. only issue i might have is if the latch on the bin isn't tight - that would cause the cameras to rattle/vibrate. Not real worried about that though - if it's loose, i'll just put some adhesive foam/felt inside the bin to take up the slack and stop the rattle.

I also sort of agree with you on concentrating on 1ch units. Yes, they'll sell the most because they're simplest to create and easiest for consumers to install, but a market definitely exists for good 2ch systems. Mfr's shouldn't focus exclusively on 1ch systems, and many don't - there are lots of 2ch systems out there, though many leave a lot to be desired. I'm looking forward to the Street Guardian 2ch systems currently in development. Apparently the first one (which might be out in time for Christmas!) will use the same outer plastics as the a119 for the front cam but will have completely different internals (higher spec lens, sensor, processor, etc) and will have a small remote rear cam that does 1080p. Later on they'll come out with one that has a form factor like the K1S, which is a box about the size of a deck of cards that you can hide anywhere - glovebox, center console, inside dash, whatever - and has 2 small remote cameras so they can be hidden much easier. The SG dual remote setup and others like it aren't really geared towards the casual consumer who can barely handle plugging something into the lighter and sticking something on the windshield - they're more of a professional install, where a stereo install shop, someone like me (see below), or a shadetree mechanic/enthusiast can handle splicing into circuits and routing wires properly - taking into account things like rear hatchback doors/glass, side airbags, etc.

I was an ASE certified auto mechanic for almost a decade, and also installed a lot of aftermarket gear (DVDs, stereos, alarms, autodimming/signal mirrors, etc) into new/used cars as part of that job. I've modified/upgraded every single car I've ever owned - some mild (stereo, lighting, seats/trim/wheels/suspension from higher-spec model), some wild (supercharger, full exhaust, LSD, clutch/flywheel, fuel injectors/pump/controller, coilover suspension, sway bars, bushings, brakes, etc etc - all on a beige 4-door Toyota Camry!). Even my wife's Highlander Hybrid - I rewired it so the low beam headlights are no longer the daytime running lights - now the fog/driving lights (which I also changed from halogens to LEDs) are the DRLs, and the main headlights are now bi-xenon HIDs.

 

[Dashmellow]

With only a limited proportion of vehicles capable of mounting side cams (interference from airbags, interfering with rear window or rear door opening, difficulty keeping cables tidy) and with the sides being less likely to have important footage than front or rear, the market probably isn't large enough for manufacturers and developers to justify throwing a lot of money at 4ch.
If I was a manufacturer, I would only concentrate on 1ch.

I have to disagree about the statement regarding a side camera "being less likely to have important footage than front or rear". I nearly got T-Boned in a broadside collision when a guy ran a red light as I was traveling through an intersection. Luckily I was able to hit the accelerator and get out of the way just in the nick of time. My side camera caught what happened in detail but my front camera was essentially oblivious to the event. Similarly, a kid on a bicycle came speeding down a side street right into traffic in front of my vehicle causing me to do a heart stopping panic stop. The front camera would have only captured me running into the kid on the bike but my side camera captured him racing wildly down the side street right into the flow of traffic into the intersection without even pausing.

Having had "4 channel", 4 camera coverage in every direction for some time now I find it invaluable. Wouldn't be without them now. Hopefully 4 channel products will become practical at some point.

 

[2000rpm]

I have to disagree about the statement regarding a side camera "being less likely to have important footage than front or rear". I nearly got T-Boned in a broadside collision when a guy ran a red light as I was traveling through an intersection. Luckily I was able to hit the accelerator and get out of the way just in the nick of time. My side camera caught what happened in detail but my front camera was essentially oblivious to the event. Similarly, a kid on a bicycle came speeding down a side street right into traffic in front of my vehicle causing me to do a heart stopping panic stop. The front camera would have only captured me running into the kid on the bike but my side camera captured him racing wildly down the side street right into the flow of traffic into the intersection without even pausing.

At some point if 4 channels become practical, Having had 4 "channel", 4 camera coverage in every direction for some time now I find it invaluable. Wouldn't be without them now. Hopefully 4 channel products will become practical at some point.

If I'm in an accident, the front cam will show whether I drove into the other vehicle or jumped a red light, which is essentially the way blame is determined in an accident. From any other direction, it's almost certain that the other vehicle hit me rather than me hit them.

Here is my priority list:
1. Front cam.
2. Second front cam.
3. Rear cam.
4. Side cam on the side of the vehicle closest to oncoming traffic.
5. Side cam on the side of the vehicle closest to the kerb.

 

[Dashmellow]

If I'm in an accident, the front cam will show whether I drove into the other vehicle or jumped a red light, which is essentially the way blame is determined in an accident. From any other direction, it's almost certain that the other vehicle hit me rather than me hit them.

Here is my priority list:
1. Front cam.
2. Second front cam.
3. Rear cam.
4. Side cam on the side of the vehicle closest to oncoming traffic.
5. Side cam on the side of the vehicle closest to the kerb.

Your scheme certainly won't show if someone else jumped a red light. Not quite sure how you are concluding "the way blame is determined in an accident". As far as I know blame is based on the all available evidence and documentation regardless of which direction the event occurs from. If someone broadsides you a front cam would be useless.

My priority list is 360 degree coverage.

 

[Gibson99]

If I'm in an accident, the front cam will show whether I drove into the other vehicle or jumped a red light, which is essentially the way blame is determined in an accident. From any other direction, it's almost certain that the other vehicle hit me rather than me hit them.

Here is my priority list:
1. Front cam.
2. Second front cam.
3. Rear cam.
4. Side cam on the side of the vehicle closest to oncoming traffic.
5. Side cam on the side of the vehicle closest to the kerb.

unfortunately not every accident is that simple. someone drifting into your lane? side cam could show WHY - were they avoiding someone else drifting into their lane or were they playing with their phone? the kid on a bike example above is another reason to have side cams. they can prove whether someone completely blew a light/stop sign or actually tried to slow down, or had other reasons for whatever they were doing (moving out of the way of an emergency vehicle maybe?)...

i do agree with your priority list for cameras though. can't be too safe with a redundant camera up front since front is of course most important. from that long list of cameras in your signature, are any of them side-facing?

 

[2000rpm]

...... from that long list of cameras in your signature, are any of them side-facing?.....

The cams are spread across three cars and my spares box, but all three cars have two front and one rear cam.
My car usually has a handful of experimental cams subject to change which involved side views or angled views. I continue to experiment with this because it's difficult to fit side cams without the problems I mentioned earlier. I have a recent side view experiment and I'll try to put some screenshot captures up in an hour or two.

So, yes, I like the idea of side cams, but not until front and rear have been well covered. Many people won't want that extra expense and as long as it's working a single front cam will be able to show they didn't do anything wrong.

A front cam is mostly a 'defensive' tool which will usually show whether you were driving appropriately. Rear and side cams are 'offensive' tools to show what others were doing and help pin the blame on someone else.

 

[Gibson99]

You mention the additional cost - i'm only considering installing my A118's as side cams because i just have them sitting around not being used, since they were replaced with A119's. So my only cost is the $20 4-port USB charger i bought to stick in the overhead console and power all 4 cameras at once, and the time to install it all. And if that doesn't work out for some reason, then i'll have a nice way to fast-charge my phone in the car.

 

[2000rpm]

 

[Gibson99]

Now that's dedication! driving screws into your dashboard for a "temporary test setup"!