View angle (H/V), buffered parking, etc.

[Questor]

Hi everyone,

Whoever brought this forum to life and keeps it up, THANK YOU!!! Good resource for research and compare.
I am new to dash cam world, never had one before, and frankly, never wanted.
But now, after a bit unpleasant situation (multi-car crash, rear-ended while standing, another driver insisted it was me who rear-ended him, luckily trooper didn't buy into it) I realized I need some protection.

The Koonlung K1S tops my candidate list (but closely followed by Lukas LK-7950 WD and BlackVue DR750LW-2CH). I need to clarify a few things about K1S so I can decide, and things are a bit confusing, so can someone from manufacturing and/or sales please confirm with confidence?

- View angle. Is it 140 or 160 or 120 degrees?
User manual (this link) on page 2 says 140, on page 27 it's 160. The review (here) says 160. Amazon (here) says 140. Ebay (here) doesn't list angle, the picture of the camera reads 120. All links are taken from this site.
Whom to believe???

- Parking mode. Is it really available? If yes, is it buffered? And again if yes, what are the numbers?
And is parking recording triggered by shock sensor only, or by movement as well?
And what is the off-to-recording delay (for driving mode), and sleep-to-recording (in parking mode if not buffered)?

- Can the back camera work through factory tinted glass (I think, 30%) - can I configure EV compensation for one camera only? Lukas boasts 'tint adjustment' option, what Koonlung has to say?

For reference - my target is Honda CR-V Touring 2015, all space around driver mirror is taken by integrated LDW/LKAS/FCW sensors, that's why K1S looks attractive. But if parking mode is no good, and angle too narrow, I'll rather consider other options. I am looking for widest possible angle front+back, parking mode, and discreet install.

Thanks,
-me.

 

[jokiin]

it doesn't have a proper parking mode function, has a big battery that will let it run for about 30 minutes going by the feedback of others

going by the screenshots the lens would be about 120 degrees

rear tint will knock things off a bit but don't know that there's any individual adjustment available

the Lukas would outperform it but not as discrete so that's always a tradeoff

 

[Street Guardian USA]

If you want the best day/night video quality, Lukas is the best choice out of the ones you listed.
(more stable, and has pre-buffer motion detection as well)

 

[russ331]

I am looking for widest possible angle front+back, parking mode, and discreet install.

Welcome to DCT. Currently available dual channel DashCams limit your choices to second-best solutions. Two single channel DashCams are a preferable option. Consider cameras like the SGZC12RC ...

 

[Questor]

Jokiin, Pier28, many thanks for your fast response!

I could possibly bear with the pains of hard-wiring this Koonlung, if only it had a proper parking mode, and 160 degrees view angle.
Maybe some of the "offspring" Koonlung sub-brands (as seen on eBay) are different, could this be a possibility?
Or confusion with specs (160/140/120) is just typical for cheap Chinese made dashcams, so 160 deg design just doesn't exist?

And I'm curious: why do you think Lukas outperforms Koonlung in video quality if it has less bitrate... does it have so much better lenses/sensor?
Is there a combined raw (non-streaming) footage from both to download and watch?

For Lucas and such, I see no way to mount a box of this size on the windshield, just no space there.
It's only the idea to mock a rain detector that may make it work.
If it were possible to tap Lucas into Honda CRV OBD-II, I would put it on the first place regardless of the above ;-).

And now as I started thinking of mocked rain detector, Vico Marcus 5 drew my attention.
There's no formal review for Marcus 5 here, where would it stand in terms of video quality if compared with Koonlung and Lucas?

Thanks again,
-me

 

[jokiin]

Marcus 5 video is decent but has some reliability issues, the single cam models are fine, it's just that one that is a problem, all dual channel units have their quirks unfortunately, the Blackvue DR750LW has been far more problematic than other models of theirs also. aside from video quality the Lukas would be the most stable of those you mentioned, can't say any dual channel product is doing better than the Lukas right now, unfortunately like most Korean cameras though the front camera is quite large, it's a style that is popular there and not as discreet as most people would like

 

[Questor]

russ331 - thanks for one more idea.
With remote lenses configuration like on the review you posted, are there any chances to add 'outdoor' camera compatible with recording unit, to have a second channel (as explained there)? Something embedded into license plate holding bracket, maybe?
Otherwise I will need to face the challenge of tinted back window, in addition to possible need to configure image rotation.
Mount on SUV back door promises to be tricky ;-)

Thx
-.

 

[jokiin]

russ331 - thanks for one more idea.
With remote lenses configuration like on the review you posted, are there any chances to add 'outdoor' camera compatible with recording unit, to have a second channel (as explained there)? Something embedded into license plate holding bracket, maybe?
Otherwise I will need to face the challenge of tinted back window, in addition to possible need to configure image rotation.
Mount on SUV back door promises to be tricky ;-)

Thx
-.

there actually is an external camera option available for that model but it's a single channel recorder only

 

[Questor]

russ331 - I must be missing something, could you please advise:

Is it the fact that even one of the best 1-ch small cameras (which you referred to with video review) has 135 view angle with the cost of $200 (official Amazon listing)?

If I get two of these or similar to get my front and back covered, how this 2 x single-channel setup is a better solution than dual (such as Lukas LK-7950 WD example)?

Financially and visually it looks very similar: either I get 2 small/discreet cameras like this, for $200 each, and install myself, or one 2-channel for $200+ and pay the rest to some professional / advanced DIY'er for hard-wiring and on-the-dash "discreetization" job.

Can there be a better solution for my priorities, are you aware of dash cams with confirmed (by someone who installed and uses) specs that I want, such as 160+ angle, possibility of discreet install, buffered parking mode w/motion detect, and adding one more - max chance of catching license plates at night?

 

[jokiin]

specs that I want, such as 160+ angle

majority of 160° plus lenses are nowhere near that, although a wide view sounds attractive in that it might catch a larger view that's a double edged sword, the wider view has a much smaller focal sweet spot and can be harder to catch details and can make things appear further away than they actually are

 

[Street Guardian USA]

With remote lenses configuration like on the review you posted, are there any chances to add 'outdoor' camera compatible with recording unit.

https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threa...of-external-camera-for-sgzc12rc-series.15933/

 

[Questor]

majority of 160° plus lenses are nowhere near that

So does it mean I am unlikely to get anything that wide, and all Amazon listings with say 135+ angle are either fake or have nonsense video quality? See my screenshot.
I expected I'd be able to find something, given the numbers.
Are things THAT bad???

 

[jokiin]

the challenge is that most will quote the maximum diagonal figure of the lens, the result you get though varies depending on which sensor it is used with, the majority of lenses you see that quote a figure of 160° or greater are generally achieving around 120° horizontal viewing angle max

that said though don't get too hung up on ultra wide viewing angles, the negatives outweigh the positives anyway

 

[russ331]

russ331 - I must be missing something ...

You mentioned the word 'discreet' in Post #1. IMO, the Lukas front camera is too large to qualify as discreet.

Dual channel cameras generally rely on one processor to handle two streams of video data, with the result that bit rates are compromised & video quality suffers. The Panorama X2 is an exception as it uses 2 processors, however, it's front camera isn't discreet either.

If your dual channel camera develops a fault, you have no protection while it's away being repaired. If one of your single channel cameras develops a fault, the other remains on duty. If the camera is a SGZC12RC, @Pier28 will get a replacement to you within a day or two.

As for FOV, I would prefer that the lens of my SGZC12RC be a little narrower than it is ...

 

[Questor]

russ331 - I was thinking about these reasons before, and considered them out of my equation, because:
- discreet install of a larger camera: seems possible if mounted on the dashboard instead of mirror area, and covered by some rain sensor/etc housing that would look like part of initial design. Someone on this forum did it. I'm yet to research the details, so far it just gives me reasons to believe is possible.
- protection in case of failure: I think I will just get SquareTrade for ~10% of the price.
- video quality 2ch vs 1ch: disputable reason to me, because
1) modern chips and codecs can (and shall) be designed with multi-threading in mind,
2) higher bit rate doesn't always mean higher video quality (factors like oversampling, lossy compression strategies, image enhancements...), and the opposite can also be true,
3) comparing 1/2 CH video quality only makes sense when the No. of channels is the only difference (otherwise it's apples to oranges due to different lenses, sensors, firmware, and what not)

So I think I need to consider both sizes/setups until some other difference becomes a deal breaker.
Such as: energy consumption? If one single-channel camera takes ~2amp in buffered mode, how long can it guard the parking using just SUV main battery? And if there are 2 cams, will there it discharge twice faster? And how that compares to 2CH cam?

Now I started thinking about cameras with some image enhancement abilities, like making license plates more readable, or recognizing these. Do they exist?

With the feedback I am getting from you guys so far (many thanks for that!), and considering uncertainty about view angle, I think I need to re-assess my priorities, and focus on what's most important: video quality.
I hope someone did parallel recording test of the 2015/2016 worthy competitors already, and saved raw files to download?
I am particularly interested to understand the difference between SGZC12RC and Lukas K-7950 WD, (and other worthy competitor) looking at unmodified files recorded at the same place and time. And the same for all new SGs. In the table Pier28 posted (here) I see larger cams have 154 deg view angle, vs. 135 for small ones.
Are there raw video test files for these anywhere?

 

[russ331]

... think I need to re-assess my priorities, and focus on what's most important: video quality.

If video quality is your most important priority, then no currently available dual channel solution will satisfy, with the possible exception of Panorama X2. Wait 6 months & some better solutions will be available, if development issues don't delay their launch until nearer Christmas.

The acid test of video performance is how they cope with low-light situations, particularly where there is little or no street lighting. In this recent comparison the Russian people voted in favour of single channel DashCams, though the dual channel Thinkware F750 acquitted itself fairly well...

http://translate.google.com/transla...dbox=0&usg=ALkJrhjuAOHDammjkGB-_75rBIvG0SHw2g

 

[Questor]

Russ331, thanks a lot for that!
Russian classic school of thinking showed up once again with meticulous and systematic approach to figuring out the truth regardless of costs and time expenses ;-)
My take of this article is that no camera on the market can overcome all distinct types of challenges, namely: low light w/no car light in relatively static/slow environment; low light+car light in fast-changing environment; strong contrast/front light (sun or incoming traffic) in either slow or fast environment (and it was something else... don't remember now).
It became clear to me that each and every great camera is optimized for one maybe two of these scenarios, and it seems the same logical to me as each car design tackles some priority parameters and sacrifices some others - be it speed, road handling, safety, comfort, fuel efficiency, ecology, you name it. One can win a competition in a few categories, but never in all at once. Cameras obey the same laws of development, and seeing this as norm, I came to conclusion that there's no reason to prioritize best possible video quality, it's just not technically possible, at least with currently dominating camera/optics design paradigm(s).

BTW I found another article with a reference table that puts together H/V/D angle, focal distance, and expected image quality. Have a look, I believe the community may benefit from this knowledge. Even if not directly applicable for choosing the better camera, it gives an idea of what a common denominator could be:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://kb-sb.ru/pub/11/24/
I would put this short article on par with another one I read a decade ago (on dpreview.com AFAIR), about how digicam manufacturers were reluctant to reveal one of the key technical parameters affecting the picture quality (namely: physical sensor size), preferring to speak about megapixels instead, and how easy it was to calculate it basing on focal distance and couple of other available numbers. Happily not the case with dashcams, but I follow the same thinking here to decide what do I really need in my dashcam, and why I need "this" but not "that".
As a result, I came to conclusion that I am still chasing the ghosts, and need to re-think my buying priorities once again.
So, after nearly 3 weeks of googling, talking, comparing, thinking, and all-night reading, I reflected quite a lot on my recent multi-car crash experience, and what fears it brought to life, and what of them were real concerns; I thought about type of scenarios I feel to be more likely then other with my driving style / habits / geography / car, and which of them may cause more damage than other if not helped by dash cam.
In fact, by order of sensitivity, they are:
- insurance fraud by pedestrian/cyclist;
- insurance fraud by driver;
- parking damage (but not theft).
In all these scenarios (as I understand them), to avoid the worst consequences "a global consistent picture" is more important than tiny details provided by top video quality. US law enforcement doesn't take dashcam/amateur video as a core evidence, but rather as some supplementary, which means in none of these scenarios reading the number plate or face is critical. What's more important is the very fact of recording, and the "auxiliary evidence" collected with large coverage area (ideally 360 but can agree on 280): what time/place it was? was it red light? who was where? who moved first? was there anyone else? etc.

Given above thoughts, I consider that:
- for my car (2015 Honda CR-V Touring),
- driving style/habits (defensive-careful, occasional shopping trips less than 50 miles a *week* and long-distance family trips 1...2,000 miles a *day* on occasions 1...3 times a *year*),
- geography (very safe and developed suburb 99% driving/parking time, and trips to random places across the country 1%),
- and major concerns (explained above),
I need almost the same I started with:
- reasonably max wide angle front/back 24/7 surround recorder,
- preferably 2CH capable of rendering 2-in-1 video file plus optional GPS metadata,
- with motion/shock detecting parking mode,
- somewhat good (at least just not the worst) day/night video quality,
- allowing somewhat good (not really spy-class, just not blinking and screaming "here I am, take me!") discreet install with reasonable efforts.

Which, considering what I have read on this and other forums, can very well be ThinkWare F750 with rear camera option and hard-wire install kit. I think of doing discreet setup for front camera by covering all non-black areas, and mounting inside a custom-tinted top of the windshield (possibly leaving a clear spot there for camera viewport). If this appears not too discreet, I will do a reverse setup (back camera in front, and rear is all tinted anyways), as someone did in this forum.

I think I will be happy with this camera, and now ready to buy.

Now, message to one of you forum forefather guys, who is the US authorized seller for ThinkWare:
It seems I have close to equal 3 options to buy for the same price and free shipping:
- BestBuy (frankly most convenient, a few blocks from me, have 15 days no-questions-asked return policy, shall have 2 years extended shop warranty with simple bring-and-switch process, installer services, and points of course)
- Amazon (vaguely remember some sort of extended warranty as well, and they now offer reference to local installers)
- And you. Which, given that much work you put into this forum would be the right thing to do, provided things are close to equal.

So here comes the, hmmm, $439.97 (total on Amazon before taxes) question:
Do you know anyone in New England area (closer to Boston, preferably) who can do the hardwiring install for me, as explained above?
(I will re-post this question in DIY area if it's a better place)

Cheers,
-me.