The same way you have to be an idiot to stop an SUV with a motorcycle and your flesh, you are an idiot if you do it in a mob of 100+ bikers. Again, take the example of a guy in a bar alone against 10+ guys. You'll be nice and try to avoid confrontation as much as possible or you'll get a beating.
wut? If you are being mobbed, you get the **** out by any means possible. If you are in a bar alone with 10+ hostile guys, you do whatever you can to
escape. The SUV
clearly showed attempts to escape, and only escape, the entire time.
I'm sorry here but I'm not american. I don't have this bull**** of gun blazing crap if I get attacked. Here, you defend yourself in proportion to what you are being attacked.
oh, that's cool, yea let's just make extremely ignorant comments and generalize an entire population. That's cool.
This guy acted definitely in proportion to how he was attacked. He was not attacked by a single biker. He responded as if he was being attacked with 100 bikers. If a guy comes at you with a spoon, hitting him with a machine gun would be overkill. If 100+ guys come at you with spoons, a machine gun would not be enough.
That said, defending yourself in proportion is the absolutely stupidest thing I've heard, and no judge in the world, US or EU, buys that ****. Lethal force is lethal force. If I suspect you will inflict deadly or grave bodily harm to myself or someone immediate to me, you can react with deadly force as self defense, anywhere in the world. This also means that if I pull pepper spray, or a pocket knife on you, I better be just as justified to have pulled a fully automatic gun on you. Lethal force, is lethal force. In most US states and EU,
all force is considered lethal.
It is about the
perceived ability for the attacker to inflict deadly or grave injury. So if one man comes at you with a spoon, a judge might question if you really seemed like you would threaten grave injury. But if 100 mean come at you with spoons, it's very easy to perceive it at deadly assault, and to react with deadly force. New York is an obligation to run state, and the bikers attempted to prevent the man from fleeing the situation (such states you have an obligation to run before using deadly force). The bikers then kept following the SUV.
One thing to note, if someone is getting out of your car and looking aggressive, you roll up your window and lock your doors. Again, I don't know if that's what he did when he fist stopped (I think I recall one article where they said they tried that but that was the only one with no mention of where they got the info) but the second time he stops and they do try to open his door (5 min mark or so?) his door is still unlocked as they open it. It's not legally guilty of anything, simply idiotic.
That won't do anything against 100 people who are currently beating on your car and knifing your tires and breaking the windows. Yes, they were doing that, read the current articles. His door might have automatically unlocked, and it also could have been forced open despite being locked. The driver also would probably prefer being pulled out of the door as inevitable than glass breaking onto his 2 year old daughter.
I'm not going to reply to every detail as I'm getting tired of online opinions which will change nothing to the case but - and correct me if I'm wrong - you can detain someone under a civilian's arrest if you witness a crime. Do I have that right?
No, you don't. You can civilian's arrest someone only if you see them commit a felony, and in most states the rules are much stricter - usually it's only in the case of a violent felony. The driver here did not commit a felony, only a traffic incident (worst case scenario, wreckless driving, but we know he wasn't).
Only time you can commit a civilian-arrestable offense on the road is felony hit and run (definite injury caused, as opposed to misdemeanor hit and run), aggravated vehicular assault (clear intent to do bodily harm), maybe some of the stuff like throwing/shooting out of a car. And there's definitive limitations on the force you can use. Generally, you can only use the amount of force used by the person in question. Pulling out of a car after breaking the windows ≠ fender bump.
Also, whereas police can arrest you based on suspicion and probably cause, a citizen can only arrest if the person has in fact done it. So if I look like I'm murdering someone, by stabbing them and using blood squibs to pop out (maybe a prank, let's say), you cannot arrest me, even if it looks exactly like I've murdered them. I had to actually do it, and be able to prove it in court.
. Guy at a bar is there to celebrate something with wife and kids. For some reason, he catches the attention of the thugs. They swarm around him, one walks up to his face, what does the guy with wife and kids do,a) stands up to them and pushes one around
or
b) shut up, be extra careful and let them slide as he's alone with his family and they're, lets say, 10
... what? you mean wait to be killed? Oh, and in this analogy, the bar thugs are ripping your shoes off and breaking your glasses, that would be a lot more in-line to what actually happened.
In this case, yea, the guy better do anything he can to get out, such as use his machine gun against the 100 spoon gang.
