AV1 Codec

[Nigel]

That is A V One, not A V I

@Panzer Platform asked for some raw AV1 footage from a dashcam, which is currently impossible since currently there are no dashcams that support AV1, so I've converted some 60Mb/s dashcam video from a Viofo A139 Pro into AV1 @ 17Mb/s and uploaded to Youtube and Google Drive:

Aberystwyth_AV1_6.mkv

drive.google.com

So why don't dashcams currently support AV1? I think it is because current SoC chips don't have the capability of encoding good quality 4K video into AV1 format in real time, it takes a lot more work than encoding H264, and a fair amount more than H265. However AV1 is already available in Video Conferencing equipment, and it seems likely that AV1 in dashcam SoCs is probably not far away.

What are the advantages of AV1 for dashcams?

1. The main advantage of AV1 is that it has better compression, so you can either have better quality, or longer recording times on your memory card, however I'm not convinced that this is the most important advantage for dashcams, you could just use a bigger memory card!

2. If a recording is interrupted mid recording, maybe through power loss, the recording does not become corrupt, so there is no real need for a battery or capacitor in the dashcam. Since batteries/capacitors are the biggest and most unreliable components in dashcams, dashcams can become smaller and more reliable.

3. Better compression for dashcam use. AV1 appears to keep license plate details even at high compression ratios, where plate details would get lost in H264 and H265. Also, it does not produce blocky skies and road surfaces like H264/H265 do. So overall it just looks better at higher compression ratios. Presumably it is still loosing some details, just not the important details!

4. It is a free codec, so there are no licensing issues, nobody is going to prosecute me for uploading the AV1 file above, which with an H265 file may actually be possible, even if unlikely. It may also reduce camera cost by not needing to pay for licenses, although I would expect that an SoC chip with an AV1 encoder in is going to be extra cost for a while.

5. Compatibility? H265 causes problems on some playback devices and is not available in all video software, I think mainly because it is not always installed as standard because of the licensing issues. AV1 has no licensing issues so can be installed as standard on everything, except it is fairly new, so is not installed on older devices.

6. HDR and 10 bit colour resolution are standard features, supported by all AV1 compatible devices.

Disadvantages?

1. It takes days to encode an AV1 file, unless you have a device with a hardware AV1 encoder built in!
2. AV1 files have HDR as standard, but having uploaded one to Youtube, it then takes Youtube days to process the HDR ... check back in a day or two to see the HDR logo appear on the above Youtube upload!

 

[Agie]

Hmm, I wonder what was lost in the conversation into AV1, it's obviously not the same as a native encode from AV1 camera. iPhone 15 the other week only just included AV1 decode (not encode) and some TVs have the ability to decode AV1, Netflix since 2020 etc. You didn't capture the footage in 10-bit HDR with the BT 2020 colour space, as the dash cam doesn't support 10 bit, only 8 bit. You're essentially trying to convert SDR 8-bit into 10-bit HDR, which you can't just do without the proper software/tools. Hence why the colours are all blown-out to smithereens in the video, you could have toned it down a bit with colour-grading, but again you would have needed ungraded 10-bit captured LOG footage with correct LUTs put on top to accurately reflect what it would look like as AV1.

On top of that, hard to see the differences of AV1 unless you have the hardware to see it, as YouTube drops it back to VP9 if you don't have it. I think the Google chromecast (latest one with 1080p) added support for AV1 decode, not the Google chromecast 4k. You get my drift, it's not going to happen anytime soon imho

 

[Panzer Platform]

Death to AV1 for dash cams, grab your torch & pitchfork. lol
H.264 until 2033.

 

[Nigel]

On top of that, hard to see the differences of AV1 unless you have the hardware to see it, as YouTube drops it back to VP9 if you don't have it.

Most computers can manage AV1 decode in software quite easily. Encode in software tends to be very slow.

You shouldn't be seeing much difference, the only thing I see different is that at low bitrates the AV1 tends to be a lot less pixelated than H26x and retains license plate writing somewhat clearer.

As for YouTube dropping back to VP9 if you don't have hardware AV1 decoding, I don't believe you need AV1 hardware to use AV1 in Youtube, but VP9 has most of the benefits of AV1 anyway, since AV1 is effectively VP10 with some additions and modifications and turned into a license free international standard.

I wonder what was lost in the conversation into AV1,

Just about nothing visible, and it actually improves H264/H265 video during conversion by removing visible pixelation! Of course you can then claim that the conversion is not accurate, but it looks good, and I prefer not to have the visible pixelation, even if it was genuinely recorded by the image sensor.

Hence why the colours are all blown-out to smithereens in the video, you could have toned it down a bit with colour-grading, but again you would have needed ungraded 10-bit captured LOG footage with correct LUTs put on top to accurately reflect what it would look like as AV1.

Starting off with raw sensor data and an accurate colour LUT would be more accurate, but it is not really necessary to see how well an AV1 codec can compress a dashcam video, retain license plate detail and avoid pixelation, and it is certainly not necessary to fulfil Panzer Platform's aim of discovering if he can play it on his devices without the problems he has with H265. The colours seem to vary somewhat between devices, red is a bit blown out at times, but that is how it was recorded, was not so obvious on the original H264, but it was, as it often is on 8 bit cameras.

 

[Agie]

Most computers can manage AV1 decode in software quite easily. Encode in software tends to be very slow.

You shouldn't be seeing much difference, the only thing I see different is that at low bitrates the AV1 tends to be a lot less pixelated than H26x and retains license plate writing somewhat clearer.

As for YouTube dropping back to VP9 if you don't have hardware AV1 decoding, I don't believe you need AV1 hardware to use AV1 in Youtube, but VP9 has most of the benefits of AV1 anyway, since AV1 is effectively VP10 with some additions and modifications and turned into a license free international standard.


Just about nothing visible, and it actually improves H264/H265 video during conversion by removing visible pixelation! Of course you can then claim that the conversion is not accurate, but it looks good, and I prefer not to have the visible pixelation, even if it was genuinely recorded by the image sensor.


Starting off with raw sensor data and an accurate colour LUT would be more accurate, but it is not really necessary to see how well an AV1 codec can compress a dashcam video, retain license plate detail and avoid pixelation, and it is certainly not necessary to fulfil Panzer Platform's aim of discovering if he can play it on his devices without the problems he has with H265. The colours seem to vary somewhat between devices, red is a bit blown out at times, but that is how it was recorded, was not so obvious on the original H264, but it was, as it often is on 8 bit cameras.

Anyone can convert any video file to another format, in this instance it's like putting a Volkswagen GTI engine in a Hyundai Elantra. But you haven't considered and modified the suspension, the exhaust and everything else to suit.

It wasn't obvious on the original because the colouring done by the dashcam processing in H.264 was done accurately, and converting has blown it out. I used to edit videos in Premiere Pro with colour grading and using LUTS with LOG footage. And this is exactly what has happened by your conversation, you've moved it to a completely different colour space from rec.709 to bt.2020 so the colours will be blown out on every device.

Those devices will have different properties much like the difference between good and bad IPS LCD and OLED panels, so some will be good at displaying colours and better/worse at blacks/grey uniformity etc. So you cannot take your HDR conversion as anything else but, it's not even remotely close to being accurate.

 

[Panzer Platform]

I just completed 60 seconds of research on the AV1 Codec.
I’m willing to lift my “Death to AV1 for dash cams campaign” when 8K / STARVIS 5 dash cams become the norm.
Let’s revisit this issue in a decade. lol

 

[Agie]

I just completed 60 seconds of research on the AV1 Codec.
I’m willing to lift my “Death to AV1 for dash cams campaign” when 8K / STARVIS 5 dash cams become the norm.
Let’s revisit this issue in a decade. lol

Try five years or so haha

 

[Nigel]

3. Better compression for dashcam use. AV1 appears to keep license plate details even at high compression ratios, where plate details would get lost in H264 and H265. Also, it does not produce blocky skies and road surfaces like H264/H265 do. So overall it just looks better at higher compression ratios. Presumably it is still loosing some details, just not the important details!

So how far can you compress a video using AV1 and still be able to read the plates?

I took my 4K 60Mb/s A139 Pro video and compressed it down to 3.9Mb/s, 1/15th the size, or 17 minutes per GB:

And if you want to see original 3.9Mb/s quality rather than Youtube compressed quality:

Aberystwyth_AV1_3-9Mbps.mkv

drive.google.com

Some of the plates are starting to lose detail at this compression rate, especially when they only appear in a few frames, but 10Mb/s seems to be almost indistinguishable from 60Mb/s H264 for this video, and 5Mb/s still has all the plate detail. If dashcam AV1 codecs could manage to compress 4K down to under 20Mb/s then we could presumably have 4K on all channels and solve all the micro SD card issues at the same time!

 

[kamkar]

I will record a 4K/60 video ( H.264 / 100 mbit ) with my action camera, and try to edit it to AV1, i think my new software support that, and there is hardware AV1 encoder on my GFX card ( AMD 7800 XT )
Just for the hell of it, the biggest question is, will pinnacle studio use the AV1 encoder more than it use for other formats ( which is not very much, actually so little the GFX fans dont even bother spinning up with the default fan profile )

 

[Agie]

I will record a 4K/60 video ( H.264 / 100 mbit ) with my action camera, and try to edit it to AV1, i think my new software support that, and there is hardware AV1 encoder on my GFX card ( AMD 7800 XT )
Just for the hell of it, the biggest question is, will pinnacle studio use the AV1 encoder more than it use for other formats ( which is not very much, actually so little the GFX fans dont even bother spinning up with the default fan profile )

You'd think it wouldn't if the program has baked in support for the codec. One thing having it in hardware, another thing is enabling it to be used

 

[Agie]

So how far can you compress a video using AV1 and still be able to read the plates?

I took my 4K 60Mb/s A139 Pro video and compressed it down to 3.9Mb/s, 1/15th the size, or 17 minutes per GB:

And if you want to see original 3.9Mb/s quality rather than Youtube compressed quality:

Aberystwyth_AV1_3-9Mbps.mkv

drive.google.com

Some of the plates are starting to lose detail at this compression rate, especially when they only appear in a few frames, but 10Mb/s seems to be almost indistinguishable from 60Mb/s H264 for this video, and 5Mb/s still has all the plate detail. If dashcam AV1 codecs could manage to compress 4K down to under 20Mb/s then we could presumably have 4K on all channels and solve all the micro SD card issues at the same time!

Duh, what we all kind of knew what was the potential *shh, don't tell @Panzer Platform *

Remains to be seen how taxing it would be on a dash cam with the processor and heat etc but it's promising.

 

[Nigel]

I will record a 4K/60 video

60fps should compress even better than 30fps in AV1...

Remains to be seen how taxing it would be on a dash cam with the processor and heat etc but it's promising.

It needs to compress it in real time, otherwise the buffers will just fill up, so there is a limit to the amount of compression it can do, and that will not be particularly taxing when done in hardware within the SoC. The real question is how much compression can it manage while keeping decent quality? It won't manage what I have above where my computer had as much time as it wanted, but maybe it can manage high quality 4K at 20Mb/s. 20Mb/s 4K H265 from dashcams is not good, but AV1 is clearly much better for retaining readable plates and avoiding the blockyness that many people dislike.

Duh, what we all kind of knew what was the potential *shh, don't tell @Panzer Platform *

OK

 

[Agie]

60fps should compress even better than 30fps in AV1...


It needs to compress it in real time, otherwise the buffers will just fill up, so there is a limit to the amount of compression it can do, and that will not be particularly taxing when done in hardware within the SoC. The real question is how much compression can it manage while keeping decent quality? It won't manage what I have above where my computer had as much time as it wanted, but maybe it can manage high quality 4K at 20Mb/s. 20Mb/s 4K H265 from dashcams is not good, but AV1 is clearly much better for retaining readable plates and avoiding the blockyness that many people dislike.


OK

Considering tech advancements, dash cams will probably be the last lot to get all these improvements after phones and security cameras

 

[DT MI]

Considering tech advancements, dash cams will probably be the last lot to get all these improvements after phones and security cameras

That's driven by market size and profit potential - no market + no profit = no new development.

 

[kamkar]

Well the way i see it, dashcams pretty much just leech on other things, so at least in hardware dont need any special care.
And the software, dedicated people can work around.

 

[kamkar]

Pinnacle studio 26 working on 1 minute AV1 file now, ULTRA slow, 100 % CPU UTILL 1-2-3 % GPU UTILL, encoding to 4K/60 20 mbit
EST end file size 145 MB vs ???? as its 1 minute i snipper off a 4 GB file from the dji osmo action camera.

 

[Nigel]

At a power consumption of 27W, or nearly 6 Amps, the dashcam is going to overheat pretty fast!

 

[kamkar]

Those 27 W id the GFX card, the overlay from the AMD software do not list the CPU, but all 12 / 24 cores going i think it was hot and heavy, the PSU app from corair say my PC use 100 - 120 watts just idling on the desktop.

 

[Panzer Platform]

Dash Cam + AV1 = Cart in front of horse
Death to AV1 for dash cams. lol

 

[kamkar]

O yes.
Davinci do a much better job and much faster as it use 50% GPU and 80 % CPU, at a total cost of a bit more power.