How is the Mobius affected by a USB charger using the Apple protocol versus other protocols?

[Bob.Blockerlundt]

I am looking for a 12 V car adapter with two USB ports, for two Mobius cameras. I understand each Mobius requires a USB port with at least a 1000 mA rating. And I see several models available with one port rated at 1000 mA and another port rated at 2400 mA, which should be fine.

But I also see some reviews saying USB wiring convention is different between Apple and non-Apple devices, and mixing-and-matching devices to non-compatible ports results in these ports falling back to only 500 mA, at least for some devices.

In other words, an Apple compatible USB charger has wiring that will charge Apple products at the full amperage (1000 mA or 2400 mA), but "everything-else" products at the default USB amperage (500 mA). Similarly, an Android compatible USB charger has wiring that will charge "everything-else" products at full 1000 or 2400 mA, but Apple products at 500 mA.

How is the Mobius affected by a USB charger using the Apple protocol versus other protocols? I see some adapters labeled Apple compatible, others as Android compatible, and still others having one port for Apple and one port for Android.


In particular, I read several reviews from Amazon user "K. Crawford", who found differences in how various chargers deliver power based on the wiring protocol.

Kensington PowerBolt Duo Car Charger for iPhone 4/4S
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3S5ZMIXCR863Q
January 28, 2012

"Likely great for dedicated Apple device users that has all the power it claims (simultaneously 2.1 Amps on one port with 1 Amp on the other for a total of 3.1 Amps output combined, but under performs DRAMATICALLY for non-Apple devices due to protocol issues for USB chargers."
"Kensington chose to go the Apple route for the 2.1 Amp port."
"However, when I connect any of the 3 high-power devices I have (HP Touchpad (2 Amps), Motorola Triumph Android phone (0.85 Amps) and the LG Optimus Slider (0.7 Amps)), none of them drew all the current they could have, because they were expecting a shorted set of data-lines."
"The 1 Amp port on this device is a bit of a quandry however. It didn't have the signature on the data lines of either the Apple protocol or the shorted lines. It appeared to have them open... which was a surprise and I believe a mistake (although I can't be certain with Apple products). The results for my 3 devices however were identical to that of the 2.1 Amp port."

PowerGen 2.4Amps / 12W Dual USB Car charger Designed for Apple and Android Devices - White
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1BSQFGYMS2DCH
January 28, 2012

"The 2 Amp port appears to be using the Apple protocol for USB power, so that port will only provide 0.5 Amps to most other devices."
"Luckily for my purposes, the 1 Amp port on this device uses the data-line shorting method. As such, it was able to deliver all the power my Triumph and Optimus wanted."

Ultra Compact High 2.1A Output Dual USB Car Charger - to Power Android, Apple iPad, 2, 3, 4; iPhone 5S, 5C; HTC, Droid, GPS, Smart Phones, Tablets and USB Powered Devices
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1FC3OEG4972IO
February 26, 2012

"This device chose to go the Apple route for both ports."

Bracketron Universal Dual USB Car Adapter (UGC-298-BL)
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3UTMUEPV9R91N
February 26, 2012

"This device chose to go the Apple route for both ports."
"But because I had bought 4 of these and they all had the same problem (except the PowerGen, which only had it on one port), I decided it was time to get down and dirty and see if I could open any of them up and modify them by shorting the data lines."
"A solder blob on the middle two pins to short them together is all that is needed."
"When I tested it afterwards, it performed beautifully with my android devices"
"DJ, without modification, both the 2.1 Amp and 1 Amp ports charged as USB/500mA ports with all of my devices, which of course stinks.
After shorting the 2 & 3 pins on both the 2.1 Amp and 1 Amp port, both ports charged as AC ports, with the devices changing much more quickly, cumulatively up to 2.1 Amps for both ports combined."

PowerGen 4.2Amps / 20W Dual USB Car charger Designed for Apple and Android Devices
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3TFF3PCTAVC9
November 24, 2012

"... a more visible and appropriate labeling... "A" for Apple products and "NA" for non-Apple products."

Anker® 24W Dual-Port Rapid USB Car Charger with PowerIQ™ Technology for iPhone 6 5S 5C 5, iPad Air, mini, Galaxy S5 S4, Note 4 3 2, Tab 4 3 Pro and More [White]
http://www.amazon.com/review/R209HPGL4CY2BC
April 11, 2013

"... allocates one port to Apple products and one to Android."

Note, some of the Amazon listings got reused to list newer models with different specs. So, the older reviews still attached to the listings may no longer apply to the newer versions.

 

[GJHS]

The Scosche dual USB charger has good reviews and a few people here are using them. https://www.amazon.com/gp/B00E1UWA4O

 

[Bob.Blockerlundt]

Thank you, GJHS, for the recommendation. I will read up on that, and most likely get that one then.

But, I'm still curious about my question above. Does the Mobius care whether its charger is using Apple's USB protocol vs the non-Apple short-2-and-3-pins protocol? As in, will the Mobius limit itself to 500 mA in either scenario, or will it always be able to pull more mA (when needed) regardless of charger type?

 

[jokiin]

Use a charge only cable, no data lines connected for best results

 

[reverend]

Yeah I've used that Scosche with the Mobius with data and non data cables and it works great for me - I run the Mobius and an iPhone on the same adaptor and run two dashcams off the back adaptor and all is fine

 

[Bob.Blockerlundt]

Hmm, interesting... thanks all for the replies!

Sorry if it sounds like I am reiterating the obvious, but I am still learning (and confused ) and would like to confirm my interpretation is correct.

Use a charge only cable, no data lines connected for best results

Does this mean "no data lines" is the okay signal for the Mobius to pull full amperage from the charger, because it figures it is not connected to a computer? So with a non-data cable, it does not matter whether the charger is following Apple or non-Apple protocol - the Mobius will pull the same amperage from either.

Yeah I've used that Scosche with the Mobius with data and non data cables and it works great for me

So, it sounds like the Mobius will work with both data cables (regular cables?) and non-data cables. In the case of a regular USB cable, is the Mobius negotiating with the charger using Apple protocol? Or non-Apple protocol? Or can it detect and use either? Or does it do something else entirely?

 

[reverend]

It will work fine - some cameras go into mass storage mode when a fully wired up USB cable is used straight into a car socket that has connectivity to the headunit for music playback etc, I've got to admit with the Scosche chargers they don't have data pins wired up so you can use any cable you want and it should work ok.

I do have a few of these kicking about which I use to connect the various cameras up:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151072001797
I don't think there's anything as clever as protocols going on - it's literally just the Android phones short a couple of pins to enable faster charging.

I've got to admit when I was away I could only find a 500ma USB car charger for sale on the island and it recorded over 15 hours of footage without a hitch - your milage may vary but for me the bog standard ampage was absolutely fine

 

[reverend]

The manual does say you should use a 1A charger though - I did only use that other option because it was all I had so I took the risk.

http://www.mytempfiles.info/mobius/MobiusManual.pdf

Recording using an external power supply
With the Mobius, it is possible to charge the battery and record at the same time using a
standard external USB 5V DC power supply. The power supply may be mains driven
(normal household wall plug), or run off batteries, including the car charger USB plug
(optional accessory) and cable supplied with the camera.
External USB power supplies usually only use the +5V and the - (Ground/Earth) wires.
The 2 data wires are normally not used. However, some USB power supplies designed
for a specific USB device may use different wiring schemes and thus may not work with
this camera. To avoid possible problems, always use a generic power supply.
When turned on, the camera checks for an electric signal on the two Data wires. If a
signal is found, the camera assumes it is connected to a PC and recording will not be
possible - see below "Recording when directly connected to a PC".
For recording video or taking pictures using a standard external power supply
connection, the USB power supply can be connected at any time, i.e. before the camera
is turned on, before the recording is started, or after the recording has been started.
►Only use a quality chargers capable of supplying 1000mA (1A) and a stable voltage
of at least 5V. Low quality chargers may not be able to supply enough current and can
lead to premature battery failure or, in the worst case, even destroy the camera.

 

[Isoprop]

This should make things clearer.

The Mobius must be able to draw as much current as it needs. This can be up to 1A. A 500mA charger is definitely not powerful enough to charge AND record at the same time although it may work as a temporary charger. The problem is that if the charger can't supply enough current then the supplied voltage will drop. This in turn will force the charger chip in the Mobius to stop charging because it relies on a constant 5V supply. As soon as the charger chip stops charging the battery the current draw will drop and the charger will once again be able to supply the required 5V. The charger will then start to charge the battery again, and the current draw will increase.... . This start/stop occurs very fast and will continue ad infinitum. The charger will overheat, the battery will overheat, and the battery will finally be destroyed. It's quite likely the Mobius will also die and very likely it will overheat.

For charging and recording at the same time the Mobius requires a 1A supply with NO DATA pins connected. If data signals are available, the Mobius will assume it's connected to a computer. If it isn't, results are undefined and most likely the Mobius won't work properly.
When charging and recording the Mobius doesn't limit the current draw. It expects the charger to be able to supply 1A @ 5Volts all the time.
Apple has changed their charging data signals numerous times. Some of their chargers are known not to work with the Mobius, others seem to work. If the charger does, indeed, limit it's current to 500mA if it thinks the Mobius is a USB device then you should not use the charger in question.

HTH

 

[Bob.Blockerlundt]

Thanks all for your help clarifying the bigger picture.

This line seems like the summary:

For charging and recording at the same time the Mobius requires a 1A supply with NO DATA pins connected.

So, let me see if I can close out my questions above (and test my understanding):

How is the Mobius affected by a USB charger using the Apple protocol versus other protocols?

Regardless of what protocols the charger can support, the Mobius should not be exposed to the data lines. With regular cables, data from any of these protocols could confuse the Mobius to think it is connected to a computer, which would then be an undefined result. The Mobius may work with regular cables if the charger is not supplying data, but to be sure, use a non-data cable.

So with a non-data cable, it does not matter whether the charger is following Apple or non-Apple protocol - the Mobius will pull the same amperage from either.

Yes for the Mobius, but the charger also needs to comply (and not fall back to 500 mA just because there is no data).
If the charger can still supply the full 1 A despite having no data communication with the Mobius, then we are good.

... will the Mobius limit itself to 500 mA in either scenario ...?

Without data lines, the Mobius will not limit its charging.

With data lines, the Mobius will be in computer mode, which is undefined when in use with a charger.

But side question: If the Mobius actually is connected to a computer, and since a computer USB port is limited to 500 mA, does the Mobius then limit itself to 500 mA?
If no, will the computer risk damage?
If yes, will the Mobius risk damage? For example, if you start a recording and then connect to the computer, is the Mobius both recording and charging, and thus needing up to 1 A?

Does this mean "no data lines" is the okay signal for the Mobius to pull full amperage from the charger, because it figures it is not connected to a computer?

Yes. Err.. maybe. Depends on the answer to the side question, I guess.

 

[mr_milo]

Kensington PowerBolt Duo Car Charger for iPhone 4/4S
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3S5ZMIXCR863Q

I think this is the unit I am using with my Mobius but I could be wrong.
I know mine is a Kensington Dual. My Belkin single was interfering with my vehicles keyless start and back-up camera but the Kensington one is fine.

 

[Whatatay]

So are you supposed to short the data pins on the charger or leave them open?

I ask because I would like to run a normal 3 meter USB data cable from the car charger to the Mobius and be able to unplug it at the charger in order to plug it into a OTG cable and phone to adjust the viewing angle or view clips. This way I don't have to unplug the USB cable at the camera since I plan on mounting it behind the rear view mirror which will make unplugging the USB cable at the Mobius harder to do.

 

[Bob.Blockerlundt]

So are you supposed to short the data pins on the charger or leave them open?

Even though I saw several other reviews/videos/etc saying to short the data pins, those applied to other devices (like various Android phones).

For the Mobius, the replies above point to leaving the data pins unconnected, thus open.

I tried searching for other devices that do not have USB data lines, and found something called the "USB condom", which blocks the data lines for connecting your device to a "unknown" port. Others simulated the same thing by folding a piece of paper over those data lines on the USB plug. While this blocks data, it causes some devices to fall back to trickle charge - which apparently is the opposite effect for the Mobius.

I would like to run a normal 3 meter USB data cable from the car charger to the Mobius and be able to unplug it at the charger in order to plug it into a OTG cable and phone to adjust the viewing angle or view clips.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 3 meter cable too long to send data? I thought it was for charging only.

Edit: Nevermind, I thought you were talking about the 3 meter charging cable like this:
http://buymobius.com/collections/mo...ounting-clips-for-the-mobius-actioncam_camera
which says "Please note that this is a charging cable and does not support data due to its length."

But I see now there are indeed other cables of that length that do support data.

 

[mr_milo]

So are you supposed to short the data pins on the charger or leave them open?

Not sure if this was directed to me or not.

I didn't do anything special, I just purchased this Rosewill 15-Feet USB 2.0 A Male to Mini B 5-Pin Male Cable (RCAB-11026) and used it.

 

[reverend]

I shouldn't worry too much about the data pins bit with added car chargers - if you're using a car cigarette lighter adaptor they aren't live anyway or they shouldn't be.

It's more if you're plugging straight into the media port built into the car that you can have that issue.

 

[Isoprop]

...........
But side question: If the Mobius actually is connected to a computer, and since a computer USB port is limited to 500 mA, does the Mobius then limit itself to 500 mA?
If no, will the computer risk damage?
If yes, will the Mobius risk damage? For example, if you start a recording and then connect to the computer, is the Mobius both recording and charging, and thus needing up to 1 A?

Yes. Err.. maybe. Depends on the answer to the side question, I guess.

I knew you'd ask
I don't believe anyone has properly researched this area. I very much doubt if the PC could be damaged, but there are many badly designed USB hubs that could be damaged or could even damage the PC, but that has nothing to do with the Mobius.
I doubt if many users use their PC as external power while recording. It's inconvenient and, because of a bug in some FW versions, the recording will stop after the first clip anyway. All the same, I wouldn't advise using the PC as a permanent source of power when recording. It's fine for just charging the battery, but remember to turn off the Mobius.

As you correctly posted, the data wires should not be shorted but left open. In general, the Mobius will work fine with most chargers using standard 4-wire USB cables.

 

[Whatatay]

Thanks Bob, Mr_Milo, and Reverend for your replies.

I shouldn't worry too much about the data pins bit with added car chargers - if you're using a car cigarette lighter adaptor they aren't live anyway or they shouldn't be.

That's what I thought too, but wasn't sure if other non Apple device chargers do the same thing with resistors.

http://www.epanorama.net/newepa/2010/08/18/apple-charger-secrets/

I am guessing non-Apple chargers would leave the data lines open so it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[civic]

Hi. I'm about to make an order for Mobius + super capacitor for dashcam purpose but I'm confused about lighter adapters. I asked banggood to pick one for me (because they have dozens of different types) and this is the reply I got: "We are trying to develop the car charger for Mobius camera, please wait in patience." Is the developer of Mobius around here? I don't want to fry the camera or the capacitor or the battery.