I wish they would start enforcing lane usage laws

[DT MI]

My take on it is that it's not safe to go 20mph slower than the majority of traffic. It's just as dangerous as person going 20 more than the majority. I know that won't hold up in court, but I can't exactly avoid freeways if I need to go anywhere more than a few miles away in Houston unless I want the trip to take 3 times as long.

I agree in principle but if 90% of the people are going 10 (or 15 or 20) MPH over the posted limit and 10% are driving at the limit that just means that 90% of the people are wrong - not 10%.

 

[Gibson99]

I agree in principle but if 90% of the people are going 10 (or 15 or 20) MPH over the posted limit and 10% are driving at the limit that just means that 90% of the people are wrong - not 10%.

And I agree. But I'd rather have a ticket than a smashed car and injuries/death from being slammed into by one of the speeders. Driving is inherently risky, so I weigh the risks and the balance I usually choose is to go with the flow of traffic and leave as much buffer in front of me as possible.

My basis is a wreck I saw happen right in front of me on 610 in Houston. Some idiot merged onto the freeway going way slower than everyone else. One 18 wheeler had to Jam on his brakes and swerve to avoid him. He jack knifed and hit 2 other cars. Then in the madness of people trying to avoid the jack knifed mess, a little pickup caught the back corner of the jack knifed trailer and bounced off the front of the 18 wheeler in front of me, then down the embankment. No injuries, thank god, but all 3 lanes and both shoulders of 610 were completely blocked for a while. And the real kicker is that the moron who caused the whole thing was never hit by anyone and drove away!!

Oh and here's another detail: speed limit was 65 but we were actually doing 60 before the wreck!

Edit: autocorrect fail

 

[DT MI]

...so I weigh the risks and the balance I usually choose is to go with the flow of traffic and leave as much buffer in front of me as possible....

As do I - also got the ticket for my efforts.

Bland County, Virginia has a notorious speed trap when coming down out of the mountains on I-77. Trucks that really struggle to get up the mountains make up the time going back down - 85 in a 65 is not unusual. Believe me when I say that I will NOT be doing 65 with a line of 18-wheelers breathing down my neck.

At the bottom, just around a curve, the state troopers and county sheriffs line up and take turns pulling drivers over, usually they pick on the ones with plates the furthest away assuming (correctly) that they won't fight the ticket but just pay the fine.

No matter how fast you are actually going they will always write you up for going 14MPH over the limit because Virginia law says 15 over is considered reckless driving with a mandatory court appearance - and the cops don't want to waste their time going to court.

 

[kuoh]

That type of driver would've created problems regardless of whether the rest of the traffic was at, above or below the speed limit. However, as others have intimated, just because everyone else is breaking the law doesn't give me license to do the same. Back on the original topic, if the driver in the left lane is at least making headway at the speed limit on the slower vehicle, then it's legal and fine with me. Something else that the impatient drivers following don't consider is that you need to leave enough room in front of the vehicle being passed before moving back to the right lane. Otherwise, you're just cutting them off and creating another dangerous situation. Sometimes I see the impatient ones trying to squeeze through by passing dangerously close to the back of the car in the left lane and the front of the one in the right lane, rather than giving the car in front time to safely move over. Doing this in rush hour makes even less sense, since they don't get more than a few hundred feet ahead before being blocked again by other traffic.

I for one no longer drive more than 5 mph above the limit, even though that's still not technically legal, no matter how impatient the drivers behind me are. I don't hog the left lane, but I'm not going to risk a ticket by speeding up just to save them 5 seconds. If they insist on passing me on the right before I get enough clear space in front of the semi to move back over, then the way I see it, it'll be them and not me pancaked under the semi when things go wrong. I also make sure no one is racing up behind me before I pull out into the passing lane. I will wait the 10 seconds for that car to clear before I move over and start my pass. If another car is farther back than that, but doing 20 mph over, then they still have plenty of time to slow down and wait for me to complete the pass.

Honestly, I feel there is a bigger problem with the lax enforcement of all driving laws versus the focus on just the high revenue/profit ones. Perhaps if/when the US allows civilian dashcam footage to be used to prosecute law breakers, there might be some improvement in overall driver behavior. Until then, I doubt there will be much change, just as there hasn't been in the past several decades. Cars have become much better and safer in that time, but driver behavior / performance seems unchanged, there's just a lot more of them today.

KuoH

And I agree. But I'd rather have a ticket than a smashed car and injuries/death from being slammed into by one of the speeders. Driving is inherently risky, so I weigh the risks and the balance I usually choose is to go with the flow of traffic and leave as much buffer in front of me as possible.

My basis is a wreck I saw happen right in front of me on 610 in Houston. Some idiot merged onto the freeway going way slower than everyone else. One 18 wheeler had to Jam on his brakes and swerve to avoid him... And the real kicker is that the moron who caused the whole thing was never hit by anyone and drove away!!

Oh and here's another detail: speed limit was 65 but we were actually doing 60 before the wreck!

Edit: autocorrect fail

 

[S P]

Was not sure if @DT MI was being sarcastic or not, but yeah. If the posted limit is 65 and everybody is doing 80 and change, it's not really safe, especially when you have the occasional yahoo who thinks 80 is too slow and is trying to push 90. You're better off and far safer to be going along with the flow of traffic. It's not higher speeds that makes highways unsafe, but rather large differences between the slowest and fastest moving traffic.

 

[kuoh]

I didn't think he was being sarcastic. I also don't necessarily agree the speed difference alone makes the highways unsafe, but rather it's the blatant disregard for the law many people feel that they are above. What makes those doing 80 less wrong than the yahoo wanting to go 90 when the limit is 65? In my eye they're all wrong and instead of or in addition to a fine, their vehicle should be booted for a day. If the speed limit for a particular roadway is incorrect, then work to have it changed. Don't just blatantly ignore it and lament those who are trying to obey to the best of their ability.

KuoH

You're better off and far safer to be going along with the flow of traffic. It's not higher speeds that makes highways unsafe, but rather large differences between the slowest and fastest moving traffic.

 

[S P]

I for one no longer drive more than 5 mph above the limit, even though that's still not technically legal, no matter how impatient the drivers behind me are. I don't hog the left lane, but I'm not going to risk a ticket by speeding up just to save them 5 seconds. If they insist on passing me on the right before I get enough clear space in front of the semi to move back over, then the way I see it, it'll be them and not me pancaked under the semi when things go wrong. I also make sure no one is racing up behind me before I pull out into the passing lane. I will wait the 10 seconds for that car to clear before I move over and start my pass. If another car is farther back than that, but doing 20 mph over, then they still have plenty of time to slow down and wait for me to complete the pass.

All perfectly fine here, because you're being considerate.

Not the case for....

- People in the outer/passing lane but making zero progress on passing, just going side-by-side with the car next to them and preventing other people from passing.
- People going 0.1 mph over the posted limit and making impossibly slow, inch by inch progress on passing. Why bother? Why not just go 64.9 mph behind that car one lane over, rather than 65.1 trying to go around them?
- People who do either of the above and tie up the passing lane for a long time, who then speed up to 80 once they're clear, and then slow back down to 65 again as soon as they reach the next group of cars to prevent anybody from passing them, never moving out of the left lane.

The first two groups are just oblivious for the most part, but the last are the real aholes. People do that on purpose, and I know this because I've patiently waited for some of them to move over for a few minutes after they've passed the last car. They never move though, still going 65.1 in the left lane, and as soon as I go to the right lane to finally "undertake" and pass them, they punch it trying to block me!!!! Apparently it's okay for them to go 80-90 mph to block me from passing, but it's NOT okay for me to just go a casual 70-75 mph to pass them in a 65 zone, when cops don't even bother unless you're 10 over for the most part. These people boggle my mind. This has happened to me more than a handful of times over the years. I think some people "accidentally" do this without realizing they're doing it (fatigued, etc), so it's not all malicious when it happens, but sometimes it is!

 

[S P]

I didn't think he was being sarcastic. I also don't necessarily agree the speed difference makes the highways unsafe, but rather it's the blatant disregard for the law many people feel that they are above. What makes those doing 80 less wrong than the yahoo wanting to go 90 when the limit is 65? In my eye they're all wrong and instead of or in addition to a fine, their vehicle should be booted for a day. If the speed limit for a particular roadway is incorrect, then work to have it changed. Don't just blatantly ignore it and lament those who are trying to obey to the best of their ability.

Bolded part is the issue. Law enforcement agencies want the speed limits artificially lower so that they can write bigger tickets. Surveys are done on roads, but they use these big gigantic billboard radar signs that display your speed, and then everybody jams on their brakes because they think they're going to get a ticket when it's just the road survey being done. Brings averages down artificially, and gives government agencies justification for setting artificially slow limits. It's all about revenue generation and not about "maintaining safety", which is why so few people actually respect speed limit laws in this country. If you do and want to obey them, that's perfectly fine.

One of the few things I like about my local county government, is that they passed a law that made it illegal for police to pull anybody over unless they're doing at least 10 mph over the speed limit I think. (it's 9 or 10, I forget which). So the artificially slow 40 mph speed limits effectively become 50, which is more or less the speed everybody travels at anyways and is still perfectly safe. Prevents police harassment, and nonsense tickets for 5 over the limit.

 

[DT MI]

Was not sure if @DT MI was being sarcastic or not, but yeah. If the posted limit is 65 and everybody is doing 80 and change, it's not really safe, especially when you have the occasional yahoo who thinks 80 is too slow and is trying to push 90. You're better off and far safer to be going along with the flow of traffic. It's not higher speeds that makes highways unsafe, but rather large differences between the slowest and fastest moving traffic.

I was not. When I am it's obvious because I'll either use a 'smiley' or denote my comments with <start sarcasm> and <end sarcasm>.

I assume that you are referring to this -

S P said: ...the speed limit is the fastest anybody should ever be going,...


It is.

S P said: ...and nobody has any business going faster than that...

Under normal circumstances they don't.

and if so I stand by what I said. The posted limit IS the fastest anybody should be going and NOBODY has any legitimate reason for going faster under normal circumstances. If you disagree with this then by all means take action to have the limits changed but until they are it's the law of the land and should be followed. To do otherwise is nothing but anarchy and in the long term does no good for anybody.

And if you are referring to this -

I agree in principle but if 90% of the people are going 10 (or 15 or 20) MPH over the posted limit and 10% are driving at the limit that just means that 90% of the people are wrong - not 10%.

I stand by that as well if for no other reason than it's absolutely and incontrovertibly (my 50 cent word of the day ) correct.

 

[S P]

All of that is fine, but you would be one of the few who see things that way.

 

[sludgeguts]

All of that is fine, but you would be one of the few who see things that way.

And that explains why driving standards are going to hell in a handcart.

... Trucks that really struggle to get up the mountains make up the time going back down - 85 in a 65 is not unusual. Believe me when I say that I will NOT be doing 65 with a line of 18-wheelers breathing down my neck.

I would - because they have the same (sometimes better) ability to keep their speed down as other vehicles. In fact, the limiter fitted to my bus will not allow it to go above 62mph under all but one scenario - if I drove it off a high cliff.
I'd far sooner have a truck go into the back of me at 65 than 85!
Over here, UK HGVs are limited to 56 under European law their limiters are set to 62, but europeans come over here & do whatever speed they like. Our motorways have a maximum limit of 70.
In EVERY instance of misfortune, the speed difference hasn't been a factor, it's gormless driving - people pulling out without looking, people not looking ahead etc.

 

[DT MI]

All of that is fine, but you would be one of the few who see things that way.

Actually most people would agree (if they were totally honest with themselves, which most people aren't) but feel that they, or their situation, are somehow 'special' and therefore exempt so they are free to do what they want. In other words - "Laws are good for other people but if they inconvenience me they don't apply".

I have a neighbor who is a perfect example of this. He has an RV that he parks at a commercial storage lot when he's not using it. The lot is less than a mile from where he lives.

The location of the facility is right at a point where the access road goes from 5 lanes (2 each direction plus a left turn lane) down to 2 lanes. If you make a right turn out of the storage facility it would be onto the narrow 2 lane section so there are at least 4 signs indicating "NO RIGHT TURN" and "LEFT TURN ONLY" at the exit of the storage lot and a city ordinance to the effect it as well. The reason being that exiting the lot with a large RV requires pulling all the way across the road onto the shoulder (blocking traffic in both directions) to make the turn so it's a reasonable and well thought out prohibition.

The neighbor in question will always make the right turn because obeying the law would be an 'inconvenience' for him - he would have to drive twice as far to get the RV home.

City also has an ordinance prohibiting blocking of pedestrian sidewalks under any circumstances. He parks the RV in his driveway blocking the sidewalk and 'justifies' it because it's longer than his driveway and he has no choice. Multiple citations and fines have not changed his behavior because in his mind his situation is 'special'.

 

[Sunny]

Even though cops around here hardly ever pull someone going over 5mph, my friend got a photo radar ticket from a parked van for going 6 mph over.

​

 

[DT MI]

Even though cops around here hardly ever pull someone going over 5mph, my friend got a photo radar ticket from a parked van for going 6 mph over.

​

The fact that cops don't enforce the law does not change the law - the limit is the limit and if you're over you are breaking the law.

In the Virginia incident I mentioned I actually made a comment to the cop about everyone else speeding.

Cop - "Do you go fishing?"
Me - "Yes"
Cop - "Do you catch all the fish?"

That's just life...

 

[Sunny]

If 90% drive way over speed limit in a particular area, then the speed limit is wrong for the area.
Yes, it's illegal to go over speed limit regardless of whether the set speed limit makes sense or not.
If highway speed limit is set to 25, 99% will drive way over.

 

[S P]

The neighbor in question will always make the right turn because obeying the law would be an 'inconvenience' for him - he would have to drive twice as far to get the RV home.

City also has an ordinance prohibiting blocking of pedestrian sidewalks under any circumstances. He parks the RV in his driveway blocking the sidewalk and 'justifies' it because it's longer than his driveway and he has no choice. Multiple citations and fines have not changed his behavior because in his mind his situation is 'special'.

Going 52 in a 40 this morning with traffic, and no side streets, nobody was being put in danger or in harms way by going 52 in a 40. Nobody was being obstructed or blocked either.

Turning right on red when a sign clearly says NO RIGHT TURN ON RED is pretty stupid, and there's almost always very good reasons to restrict it. Like not being able to see who might be coming because the corner is blind? People do it, and it's stupid. Turning left from right turn only lanes, or right from left turn only lanes, or going straight in a turn only lane is all ridiculously dangerous and puts people in harm's way, because now there's a vehicle coming from an unexpected direction where there isn't necessarily space. Making a U-Turn where it says NO U-TURN is dangerous, but people do it anyways, just like they blow red lights, and stop signs. All of that is dangerous and puts people in harm's way.

Going 10 over some arbitrary speed limit, which are purposely "gamed" and set low for higher revenue collection by the local police department doesn't endanger anyone, and is hardly the same thing. Even our local county government agrees, which is why they passed the ordnance blocking police from ticketing anyone unless they're going at least 10 over, which is about the speed people go anyways. So even our local government knows the game is rigged, and that people should be allowed to go faster than the posted limits. Why not just set 40 limits to 50? Good question! Probably because it's easier to just pass an ordnance telling the PD what they can/can't do, than changing the rigged system that sets up these artificially slow limits in the first place. So the issue here HAS been resolved. 50 in a 40 isn't really a crime, but 51 is. Got it?

 

[S P]

And that explains why driving standards are going to hell in a handcart.

Biggest issue where I am is non-stop mobile phone use while driving, and people not paying attention. Can't speak to the UK since I don't drive there, but trucks/lorries aren't limited to 55 mph here in the U.S. Plenty of them cruise right along at "normal" speeds of 70-75 mph on the highways if not faster sometimes. I personally don't feel comfortable passing anybody with more than a 10 mph speed differential. If they suddenly change lanes for no reason or drift over (because they're on their damned phones!!! ), it's far easier to react if you're not going more than +10 their speed than if you're going +20!

 

[DT MI]

...Why not just set 40 limits to 50? ...

Because then people would still travel 10 over, which now becomes 60. It's human nature to resist limits on our activity and this is just one manifestation of that. Did you ever see a small child test the bounds of authority?... This is the same thing, just at a different level.

...some arbitrary speed limit, which are purposely "gamed" and set low for higher revenue collection by the local police... ...

With very few exceptions that is not true (and please note I do acknowledge there are exceptions) but a popular myth proffered by the same type of people who believe in 'chem trails', 'man did not walk on the moon', and other conspiracy theorists. If it were true why would you have a local ordinance prohibiting it's enforcement?

Most (again, not all) speed limits are set based on traffic volumes, potential hazards, human reaction time, environment, etc. I'm not a traffic engineer, and suspect you aren't either, so I'm not saying the system is perfect. But I will say it's better than letting everyone who is behind the wheel make their own decision as to what is proper speed in a specific area based on how they feel at the moment.

...50 in a 40 isn't really a crime, but 51 is. Got it?

I disagree, if the posted limit is 40 then 41 is a crime - just not enforced. The ordinance you mentioned would only apply to the local police - if a county or state LEO ticketed you for doing 41 you have no defense.

In MI it's entirely unlikely you would ever be ticked for doing 5 over in a 70 zone (and I do) but I would not like your chances if going 5 over in a 15 because it's 15 for a reason - it's a matter of degree vs absolutes.

 

[Gibson99]

the last speeding ticket i got was in the city of Sugar Land, TX, and it was for going "more than 10% above the posted limit". i was doing 45 in a 40. and i was the SLOWEST car, because i knew cops liked to hang out there. most traffic was doing 50+, so i was in the right lane, letting them all pass me. guess i was the low hanging fruit for the cop that day.

one other factor in the ruling to prohibit tickets for less than 10 over is because speedometers are NOT precision calibrated devices. anyone who's ever compared their GPS speed to the speedo (and to the OBD-II speed) can verify that. things like tire under/over-inflation, tire wear and different tire/wheel combinations will all change how accurate your speedo is, so if you only have a speedo (and not 43 other gizmos to measure your speed) like most people, then you never know EXACTLY how fast you're actually going - you're only accurate to within 2-3 mph most times. that was part of why i was so mad about being pulled over for doing 57 in a 55 (obviously a different time than the one in the first paragraph here).

 

[erkme73]

That's a very good point, Gibson. I've always had my speedometers read 2-3 mph FASTER than my actual (GPS) speed. GPS velocity accuracy is amazingly accurate while in motion (usually to well within 0.1 mph). It is my contention that the speedometers are intentionally set faster than actual speed to err on the side of safety. Motorists who think they're doing 58mph are really only going 55. It's another very good reason to have GPS speed logged on your video. I've noticed that my GPS reported speed is dead on 100% of the time when compared to the side-of-the-road radar signs. My speedo, not so much.