A229 Pro rear camera image quality

[NicholasOakenscowl]

I ordered the A229 Pro to replace my old A119S (with mod fw), which I've had since 2017. Once I fitted the A229, I tried having the A119S on the rear window. It worked great, although I couldn't figure out a good place to get power for it from. I then ordered a rear camera for the A229, since we have another car I thought I'd use the A119S on.

Once I'd fitted the A229 rear camera, however, I realized that the image quality is much worse than that of my A119S! Especially in darker (yet lit) conditions, the difference is huge.

Is it unreasonable to expect a 2023 1440p rear camera to be at least similar in quality to a 2017 1080p camera?

 

[Karagandinez]

Once I'd fitted the A229 rear camera, however, I realized that the image quality is much worse than that of my A119S! Especially in darker (yet lit) conditions, the difference is huge.

Did you put the A119S on the rear window next to the rear camera of the A229 Pro and drove around with them,
and then compared the video quality from both cameras?

 

[Nigel]

Is it unreasonable to expect a 2023 1440p rear camera to be at least similar in quality to a 2017 1080p camera?

Depends on how you look at it.

The pixel size is almost 50% larger on the old FHD camera, so it definitely has an advantage in very dark conditions, if you are comparing pixel quality, however it only has 50% of the pixels, so if you are looking total image quality/resolution in not so dark conditions, the new 2K camera should easily win. The larger pixels may make up for the older sensor technology when it come to motion blur too.

The new camera does have DOL-HDR for night time plate reading, but that only works well when the plates are brightly lit, so in the dark, maybe only when you put your brake lights on, or maybe never for the vehicle behind you.

The new camera is a small rear camera, with a small lens to fit in the small case. I would expect the lens on the old "front" camera to be somewhat higher in quality, as well as being more expensive.

Being 2K, the newer camera may have a wider field of view? Which would reduce the resolution advantage if you zoom in to look at the pixels, but would record more image, less likely to miss things. I would still expect more pixels per number plate at the same distance though.

If you have a dark tint on the rear window, the camera with the larger pixels will have even more advantage.

Given a choice between the two, I would choose the newer camera, because of double the resolution, but I don't have dark tint and I do most of my driving in daylight.

Comparing the new camera with the A119 V3 would be a fairer comparison, since then they are both 2K, and the A119 V3 has been a favourite with great reviews for years, not sure I've seen anyone do that, but I would expect that to come out roughly equal, with the HDR being an advantage in a few situations. It is generally accepted that the A119 V3 is better than the A119S.

Especially in darker (yet lit) conditions, the difference is huge.

Can you post some images showing the difference? Or video.

Maybe there is an issue with your camera, but probably your light level has dropped below the limit for the higher resolution/smaller pixel camera but is still OK for the older camera with bigger pixels and better lens.

It would be interesting to see a sunlight comparison too...

 

[Panzer Platform]

I ordered the A229 Pro to replace my old A119S (with mod fw), which I've had since 2017. Once I fitted the A229, I tried having the A119S on the rear window. It worked great, although I couldn't figure out a good place to get power for it from. I then ordered a rear camera for the A229, since we have another car I thought I'd use the A119S on.

Once I'd fitted the A229 rear camera, however, I realized that the image quality is much worse than that of my A119S! Especially in darker (yet lit) conditions, the difference is huge.

Is it unreasonable to expect a 2023 1440p rear camera to be at least similar in quality to a 2017 1080p camera?

Can you upload some test footage clips (day & night) to YouTube so we can see what you're talking about?
Please film the test footage simultaneously (side by side).
Please include any setting changes from default, and the installed firmware.
-Chuck

 

[Dashmellow]

The new camera is a small rear camera, with a small lens to fit in the small case. I would expect the lens on the old "front" camera to be somewhat higher in quality, as well as being more expensive.

I don't own an A229 Pro so I've never examined one in person but available evidence suggests that the rear camera likely houses a standard M12 lens like virtually every other dash cam on the market.

The dimensions of the rear camera housing are very similar to the tiny Mobius camera which uses M12 lenses and would accommodate a standard M12 lens and holder even with the lens mounted laterally as the camera tube appears to have an extended "barrel" specifically to make room for the lens module making the camera tube even wider than suggested in the photo below, so there is more than enough depth (and height).

I suppose the lens on the rear module could be a smaller one such as an M8 or an M10 but I doubt that because the rear lens that ships with the A229 Pro has an aperture of ƒ/1.9 and smaller M8 and M10 lenses rarely if ever are available with such a wide aperture. I've never seen one.

 

[kamkar]

I wanted to lens mode my dji osmo action camera,,,,, turn out it have a 11 mm lens....

 

[Dashmellow]

I wanted to lens mode my dji osmo action camera,,,,, turn out it have a 11 mm lens....

Do you mean M11?

 

[Nigel]

I suppose the lens on the rear module could be a smaller one such as an M8 or an M10

Pretty sure it's an M12!

I don't have an A229 Pro rear camera either, but the A139 Pro rear camera lens, from the outside looks a lot smaller than the Front lens.

The main difference between these rear camera lenses and the front / A119S lens is that the rear is shorter, the sensor PCB cant be right at the back of the camera since it is barrel shaped, it must be near the centre of the barrel, so the distance from the sensor to the front of the lens is very short, this doesn't make for a perfect lens. The lens mount threads, as far as I know, are all the same M12, even for the big sensors used in the front of the A139 Pro and A229 Pro.

 

[Dashmellow]

Pretty sure it's an M12!

I don't have an A229 Pro rear camera either, but the A139 Pro rear camera lens, from the outside looks a lot smaller than the Front lens.

The main difference between these rear camera lenses and the front / A119S lens is that the rear is shorter, the sensor PCB cant be right at the back of the camera since it is barrel shaped, it must be near the centre of the barrel, so the distance from the sensor to the front of the lens is very short, this doesn't make for a perfect lens. The lens mount threads, as far as I know, are all the same M12, even for the big sensors used in the front of the A139 Pro and A229 Pro.

M12 lenses are available with different barrel lengths, and there are M12 lens holders with different depths. Also many M12 lens formulas have different BFLs (back focal length) and MBF (mechanical back focus) specs so that could also offer an explanation.

There are many types of M (metric) board lenses available ranging from M2.1 / M2.6 / M3.5 / M5 / M5.5 / M6 / M7 / M8 / M9 / M10 Mounts. They are used in all kinds of unique products from endoscopes to machine vision and inspection cameras but they are often only available in a lower megapixel range with slower apertures than ones that are used for higher end photographic and video purposes like dash cams that have higher specs, faster apertures and better optical correction and are usually M12. The Mobius Mini action camera does have an M9 lens in it but it has a slower ƒ/2.8 aperture and doesn't quite offer the same performance as the standard size Mobius cams and lenses.

 

[Nigel]

M12 lenses are available with different barrel lengths, and there are M12 lens holders with different depths. Also many M12 lens formulas have different BFLs (back focal length) and MBF (mechanical back focus) specs so that could also offer an explanation.

Here is a rear A139 Pro and front A139 lens for size comparison, you can only see the front of the lenses, but you can see they are different, the glass is the reflective bit in both cases, :


I think the A229 rear is a bit bigger, due to being a 2K lens rather than FHD.

(Apologies for the dust on the photo, the lenses look clean to my eyes, and I'm not going to set up decent lighting for that photo!)

 

[kamkar]

Do you mean M11?

took the original lens out, and wanted to put in other 12 mm lens, but it was too big, put caliber to original lems and it measured 11 mm in diameter on the thread.

BTW that camera come apart like a phone do, with those connector ribbon thingies, and lots of them, and you have to take it all apart to get to the lens of course.

 

[Dashmellow]

Here is a rear A139 Pro and front A139 lens for size comparison, you can only see the front of the lenses, but you can see they are different, the glass is the reflective bit in both cases, :
I think the A229 rear is a bit bigger, due to being a 2K lens rather than FHD.

Many, if not most M12 lenses have different sized front glass elements but they are still M12 lenses. The lens is not "smaller" it simply has a different optical design or a different focal length or a different maximum aperture. Even different M12 lens of the same focal length from different manufacturers can have smaller or larger front glass elements. If I had time I could photograph examples from my own collection of lenses which would be more illustrative than these but for expediency I just grabbed some screens shots online. One example, I could show are two 6mm ƒ/1.2 aspherical M12 lenses with nearly identical specifications from different manufacturers that have extremely different front element designs and sizes. One has a front element nearly twice the size of the other with a flat front surface and the other is smaller with a concave front element.

Also, as I mentioned before most M12 lenses have different length barrels, also due to focal length, optical design, etc., but they all have 12mm diameter barrels.

So, yes, the front and rear lenses of the A229 are indeed different. Generally, when it comes to M type or S type lenses, smaller means barrel diameter which is how I took your original comment, "The new camera is a small rear camera, with a small lens to fit in the small case".

I guess if it were me I would have simply noted the difference in size of the front element instead of claiming that the lens was smaller to fit the module because that is not at all the case.

The A229 Pro claims a 140° AOV front lens + 160° Wide Viewing Angle for the rear lens which is the most likely explanation for the two different size front lens elements. They are simply two different M12 lenses but both are approximately the same physical dimensions. The rear lens may have a slightly shorter barrel length due to its wider coverage and that might help it fit better.



same focal length as above

 

[Dashmellow]

took the original lens out, and wanted to put in other 12 mm lens, but it was too big, put caliber to original lems and it measured 11 mm in diameter on the thread.

BTW that camera come apart like a phone do, with those connector ribbon thingies, and lots of them, and you have to take it all apart to get to the lens of course.

I've not heard of an M11 lens but I guess they must exist if you have one.

 

[Dashmellow]

(Apologies for the dust on the photo, the lenses look clean to my eyes, and I'm not going to set up decent lighting for that photo!)

I always keep a can of compressed air on hand for shots like this, Digital cameras seem to really bring out the dust on close ups, don't they?

 

[Nigel]

I always keep a can of compressed air on hand for shots like this, Digital cameras seem to really bring out the dust on close ups, don't they?

A tack cloth is a good idea, but it can still be hard to remove all the dust - I had only just removed the lens protection off the rear camera!

I think lighting has a lot to do with it, a proper closeup lens with a ring flash is much better than a phone camera, and I couldn't see any dust with my eyes, so a lens replicating eyesight might be really good.

 

[Dashmellow]

A tack cloth is a good idea, but it can still be hard to remove all the dust - I had only just removed the lens protection off the rear camera!

I think lighting has a lot to do with it, a proper closeup lens with a ring flash is much better than a phone camera, and I couldn't see any dust with my eyes, so a lens replicating eyesight might be really good.

I have a studio with professional lighting and it still happens but it can be minimized somewhat with soft boxes.

Best option for certain projects is to simply clean things up in Photoshop.

I should have saved a before and after for this one, but you'll get the idea.

 

[Nigel]

I should have saved a before and after for this one, but you'll get the idea.

That works well, but I prefer natural lighting, makes things look more real, and not look like computer graphics.

I took this with a Gitup Git2 action camera:

Best option for certain projects is to simply clean things up in Photoshop.

Had to clean a little dust in software, and also a bit of focus stacking to get down into the interior of the lens, but leaving a few imperfections makes it look real.

 

[Dashmellow]

That works well, but I prefer natural lighting, makes things look more real, and not look like computer graphics.

I took this with a Gitup Git2 action camera:

Had to clean a little dust in software, and also a bit of focus stacking to get down into the interior of the lens, but leaving a few imperfections makes it look real.

Hah! Are you really suggesting my image looks like computer graphics? Of anyone here on the forum, only you would makes a comment like that, but that's just who you are. Personally, I and my clients generally prefer small product images of that style and quality over your "natural lighting" action cam snapshot.

That still looks rather dusty BTW and you really shouldn't have to resort to "focus stacking" to create a sharp image with some modest depth of field to it.

 

[kamkar]

I've not heard

Same here, so i did have my caliper on it several times, but every time i read 11 mm on the dot, TBH also before i got to that i tried to screw in the 12 mm lens several times, but it would not go in.
Also on the sensor PCB in the corner of that camera, well fat chance getting another mount on there, and i would not be surprised if the screws holding it in place are also a proprietary distance apart.

So in a fit of rage, i just went and got a new camera. I haven't even attempted to put the damn thing back together.

 

[NicholasOakenscowl]

I did actually drive a bit with the modded A119S and the A229 Pro rear camera fitted side-by-side; the A229 rear camera was just very, very dark even at EV +2.0. That being said, it was a bit better in some situations than the A119S.

...however, turns out the rear camera was on 1.0 firmware. After updating it to 1.3, it is greatly improved better and resolves more detail in darker conditions. I tested this on a static scene at my home garage by comparing screen caps.

Case closed, then.