Cigarette lighter behavior dictates Pano II experience

[singlespeed]

I thought I'd share my Pano II experience between my two cars that each have the "2014" Panorama II/S model in them. The cars are a 2014 Volkswagen Golf TDI, and the second is a 2014 Toyota Hilux SR5. I'll start with the bad.

In the Hilux it has the typical Japanese car behavior in which everything is powered off when you start the car. The Pano powers on while the ignition is switch to ACC/ON, then it loses power for a second when the key is turned to start, so in each start of the car it effectively gets interrupted in its first startup then attempts to operate normally when the engine is running. It's quite often the camera protests being interrupted by going into a reboot loop which I assume indicates that the data on the SDCard is corrupted. The only fix is to swap cards or quickly (I have about 5 seconds to finish) a format of the SDCard. It's unfortunately Japanese cars behave this way, it's equally annoying if I'm on a bluetooth phone call and I have to the start the vehicle, this causes the radio to lose power and restart, during this time the call is reverted to the mobile handset then has to reconnected to the radio. I feel my option is to live with, knowing I have swap/format the card about 25% of the time, or I will hardwire in a switch that is still tied to the ignition so I can keep the power to the camera off until the vehicle is started, but I'll leave it switched by the ignition so I don't forget to switch it off when done driving. Yes, I know the mutlisafer could be used, but I don't have a need or want it to record all the time, nor do I want to be forced to turn it off manually.

The Good:

The VW's handling of it's accessories is brilliant, once the ignition goes to ACC everything remains powered up, this means that camera starts recording goes on before the car starts and is not interrupted during the starting process. This goes for the radio/bluetooth as well. In the VW I've never had an issue with a corrupted card requiring a swap or format.

I wish Toyota would have wired everything off the ignition, but not interrupt the circuit during start up. To compound the Toyota's issue is that its glow plugs can require warming on cold mornings, this makes the ACC to START delay a bit longer which only serves to aggravate the Pano even more. It's worth mentioning the VW has instant start glow plugs, but it wouldn't matter anyways, constant power is a beautiful thing.

It would be great if there was some sort of "startup delay" in these camera so they sensed power then delayed their boot by 3-5 seconds, this would probably help the bulk of people who have typical Japanese cars that kill all the accessories while the car is starting.

Apologies for the long post, but I thought I'd share my experience with the group.

 

[jokiin]

startup delay would be possible, it's a firmware adjustment though

 

[singlespeed]

startup delay would be possible, it's a firmware adjustment though

Thanks @jokiin, could @Sungmoon Jang make this happen? A startup delay makes sense, I can' t imagine I'm the only one that experiences these issues in a car that kills the accessory power when starting. I even swapped cameras between the VW and Toyota to rule out that the corruption issue was specific to the camera or the car. It's definitely the car, since swapping cameras I've not had any issues in the VW again, while the camera in the Toyota continues to require a card swap or format.

 

[niko]

Good post.

I think there are two issues:

1. Pano shots down instantly after ACC is off. This could be resolved by adding 3-5 sec shot down delay by manufacturer.

2. solution to your Toyota. Because Pano uses SuperCaps, which are in 99% cases has advantages over battery use, but 1% drawback is that when u power on, its need to fully recharge supercaps in order to turn on device. Recharging-startup takes from 4-8 sec depending how long was Pano switched off. So if there is a power cut within time when Pano recharges supercaps, then in some rare cases ( like yours ) there can be first file corruption.
Solution is: when u start acc, leave it in half-way, do not turn ignition full way and wait until Psno recharges supercaos and starts recording. As soon as u hear recording beep, then turn ignition all way On. Of course Pano will restart again due to power circuit cut in your Toyota, but at least it will turn on and starts recording with no corrupted first files.
Its just the matter of time to get used to this type of car delay start-up.
Try it and let to know if it works for you. Works for me very well.

 

[spotnz]

I know it's not much help. But my 2008 toyota blade ( japanese market only ) doesn't have this issue. It has keyless entry & a Start Button with a remote lock/unlock control. So it appears that toyota australia may have chosen a "cheaper" system for the hilux

david

 

[singlespeed]

I know it's not much help. But my 2008 toyota blade ( japanese market only ) doesn't have this issue. It has keyless entry & a Start Button with a remote lock/unlock control. So it appears that toyota australia may have chosen a "cheaper" system for the hilux

david

OK. So not ALL Toyota, but this is quite common, especially among Japanese cars. Most Euro cars even allow the radio to be turned on while the ignition is completely off. My Subaru does the same thing as the Hilux, kills all accessories when starting, I still believe this is quite a common experience with most cars.

 

[Ipol]

@ singlespeed I have a Mitsubishi japanese car and have 4 and sometimes 5 appliances running off of the cigarette lighter socket.....My solution is that I unplug the multi socket adapter when starting the car and re-insert it once the engine is running. That way my cameras gps and tablet fire up with no issues. Hope this helps Ipol..........A simple solution.... a bit like myself ....

 

[niko]

@ singlespeed I have a Mitsubishi japanese car and have 4 and sometimes 5 appliances running off of the cigarette lighter socket.....My solution is that I unplug the multi socket adapter when starting the car and re-insert it once the engine is running. That way my cameras gps and tablet fire up with no issues. Hope this helps Ipol..........A simple solution.... a bit like myself ....

Thats also might be a solution.

 

[niko]

I also wonder if there is out there some kind of device ( module, relay ) for startup power-on delay to cigarette lighter that can be fitted in car ?

 

[spotnz]

@ singlespeed I have a Mitsubishi japanese car and have 4 and sometimes 5 appliances running off of the cigarette lighter socket.....My solution is that I unplug the multi socket adapter when starting the car and re-insert it once the engine is running. That way my cameras gps and tablet fire up with no issues. Hope this helps Ipol..........A simple solution.... a bit like myself ....

My multi-plug adapter, didn't work as well as hoped for. Most days my rear camera cut out & occasionally, even the front one did as well. Now that I'm using the constant power supply for the P II, the rear camera isn't cutting out. I can recall something in the P II manual warning against a multi-plug adapter.

david

 

[Ipol]

A cigarette multi adaptor with an ON/OFF switch might be a simpler and cheaper solution .....If such a beast exists .....Ipol

 

[spotnz]

A cigarette multi adaptor with an ON/OFF switch might be a simpler and cheaper solution .....If such a beast exists .....Ipol

there is a red on/off switch on the P II's cigarette lighter plug

I for one wouldn't like to have to use it, every time I started my car

david

 

[niko]

there is a red on/off switch on the P II's cigarette lighter plug

I for one wouldn't like to have to use it, every time I started my car

david

This is good solution for those who has connected directly to cigarette lighter socket. Myself personally like to hide stuff and minimize wires exposure.

 

[lankyduke]

In the Hilux it has the typical Japanese car behavior in which everything is powered off when you start the car. The Pano powers on while the ignition is switch to ACC/ON, then it loses power for a second when the key is turned to start, so in each start of the car it effectively gets interrupted in its first startup then attempts to operate normally when the engine is running. It's quite often the camera protests being interrupted by going into a reboot loop which I assume indicates that the data on the SDCard is corrupted. The only fix is to swap cards or quickly (I have about 5 seconds to finish) a format of the SDCard. It's unfortunately Japanese cars behave this way, it's equally annoying if I'm on a bluetooth phone call and I have to the start the vehicle, this causes the radio to lose power and restart, during this time the call is reverted to the mobile handset then has to reconnected to the radio. I feel my option is to live with, knowing I have swap/format the card about 25% of the time, or I will hardwire in a switch that is still tied to the ignition so I can keep the power to the camera off until the vehicle is started, but I'll leave it switched by the ignition so I don't forget to switch it off when done driving. Yes, I know the mutlisafer could be used, but I don't have a need or want it to record all the time, nor do I want to be forced to turn it off manually.

Woah Nelly! Slow down before you have a heart attack. Let me clear a few things.
My 2008+ Ford Falcon does the same thing. It doesn't "lose power" it's just that the power dips slightly below the standard 12V. This is normal for a car which has a high drain on the battery. You have a much larger engine in the Hilux and probably takes much more power to get it to kick over. Installing a better battery with a larger CCA rating could help your car kick over faster and minimise the strain on the camera.

The reboot loop is normal, because it thinks the car has switched off, and starts to power down. I don't know why you're thinking the card is getting corrupted. You're "assuming the data on the SD Card is corrupted"... do you have evidence of this?
From the camera's point of view it's thinking:
"Okay power is available, starting up and beginning to record"
Oh wait, power is lost, I'll finish off the file save and shut down normally"
"Okay, power is available, starting up and beginning to record".

Why are you talking about swapping cards? Especially within a 5 second window. This seems a bit strange, and probably why you're getting corruptions, if you're trying to swap cards during the startup phase.

Again, why are you swapping the card 25% of the time?

A BDP device won't help you here. I use a Lukas unit and I still get the rapid shutdown/startup when I start my car.

I think a possible solution is to rig up a large capacitor in conjunction with a BPD device which will hold the power for a couple of seconds, and essentially smooth out the voltage drop ripple.

Hope this helps.

 

[lankyduke]

Have a read of this and educate yo self
http://oreilly.com/pub/h/3649

 

[niko]

Have a read of this and educate yo self
http://oreilly.com/pub/h/3649

Good article.

 

[singlespeed]

Woah Nelly! Slow down before you have a heart attack. Let me clear a few things.
My 2008+ Ford Falcon does the same thing. It doesn't "lose power" it's just that the power dips slightly below the standard 12V. This is normal for a car which has a high drain on the battery. You have a much larger engine in the Hilux and probably takes much more power to get it to kick over. Installing a better battery with a larger CCA rating could help your car kick over faster and minimise the strain on the camera.

The reboot loop is normal, because it thinks the car has switched off, and starts to power down. I don't know why you're thinking the card is getting corrupted. You're "assuming the data on the SD Card is corrupted"... do you have evidence of this?
From the camera's point of view it's thinking:
"Okay power is available, starting up and beginning to record"
Oh wait, power is lost, I'll finish off the file save and shut down normally"
"Okay, power is available, starting up and beginning to record".

Why are you talking about swapping cards? Especially within a 5 second window. This seems a bit strange, and probably why you're getting corruptions, if you're trying to swap cards during the startup phase.

Again, why are you swapping the card 25% of the time?

A BDP device won't help you here. I use a Lukas unit and I still get the rapid shutdown/startup when I start my car.

I think a possible solution is to rig up a large capacitor in conjunction with a BPD device which will hold the power for a couple of seconds, and essentially smooth out the voltage drop ripple.

Hope this helps.

Reboot loop isn't normal behavior, files are corrupt. The camera tries to record then reboots, continuously until a new card is inserted or the current card is formatted.

 

[singlespeed]

@lankyduke Also, the article you posted says:

"In many cars, the turning of the ignition switch temporarily cuts power to the radio, the headlights, and the A/C—turn your car on to see if it does this. If so, the other problem that occurs is that the 12V line going to your computer is completely cut off during engine cranking, and your computer shuts down immediately."

This is the behavior the camera doesn't like, the supercaps can't handle the power cut.

 

[lankyduke]

Yeah I understand that. And in the context of car radios, especially modern ones that have a lot of electronics, it's done as a safety precaution. It'll vary between cars whether it's actively switching off the 12V socket, or it's just wavering under the starter motor load. It's not a "typical japanese" thing.

My only solution I can think of is to use a BDP device which constantly supplies 12V power, and then use a small UPS like this
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/12V-DC-UPS_1618152505.html?s=p
That way the UPS is constantly charged up through the BDP Device and when you start the car the UPS will hold the power long enough to overcome the voltage drop.
I'm not sure if you can get suitable capacitors small enough to install in the cabin of your car. The only ones I've seen are the large "Pringles" can capacitors they use in car-audio applications.

 

[singlespeed]

What I plan to do is wire the camera to a relay that is switched off the "accessory" key position. The difference is that I'll use a time delay relay so it won't cut power for a preset amount of time. This will be quick and effective way of allowing the camera to keep recording when the key is initially switched on, and not reboot when the car goes to the start mode. Before I take this action I'll measure battery voltage during starting; however, I'm confident the massive Hilux battery has enough CCA to maintain voltage during the start process. I have confirmed the cigarette lighter is cut when the key is moved to "start".

Example of a time delay relay. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/181370212189