Date and Time Stamp

Discussion in 'Legal Questions' started by c4rc4m, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    98
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I see your sentiment.

    But if it works fine out of the box without adjustment, it works fine. I'm not saying that things shouldn't get fixed, I agree entirely that Viofo have dropped the ball slightly and should work on a PC App that allows full adjustment Mobius style from the PC rather than a Smart Phone alone. I'm 100% behind that. I want to see it also! I agree entirely with most of the suggested improvements in this thread.

    I'm simply saying the sentiment of it's "useless" without a Smart Phone is not correct. It has limited functionality without a Smart Phone, but provided you can format a card, it provides a good picture without any additional adjustment considering it's price range.

    As for my desire to see dashcams radically improved in performance or more ruggidised, yes that still holds. However, I'm not going to expect $60 of dashcam to be as rugged as or perform like the latest Ribcaged GoPro. Now if the camera was $200, I'd have entirely different expectations although any review would be based on it's performance vs it's peers. I would nevertheless separately in a non brand specific context, be pushing the industry generally to make radical improvements, because in my opinion, at the top end of the market, performance could be made better with a few changes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  2. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,697
    Likes Received:
    9,960
    Location:
    Uncanny Valley (●_●)
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    SG9665GC, Mobius/M2 (x7), GT680W (modded), DR32, others
    No, if you are unable to even set the correct date and time on your dash cam, it's not "fine".

    Dash cams are there to collect legally actionable documentation in the event of an incident. Without the date and time your dash cam video is compromised.
     
    Module 79L likes this.
  3. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    98
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Date and time stamps are useful but are of limited evidential value as they can be easily faked in post. If you've captured the number plate and impact, you have the other driver evidentially up the creek when it comes to denying the accident occurred.

    Spot on and isn't this exactly what I said in thread about quality though? Money spent on producing high quality output is better spent than money spent on features.

    It's alright having GPS, data logging, wireless, G Sensors, Parking Modes, 6 different on / off tones, 3 different ambient button colours etc, but the camera is absolutely useless if it doesn't capture the number plate and face of the driver clearly in a glancing blow where the driver fails to stop.

    Personally, I'd rather have money spent on a quality lens and similar hardware features, than a whole host of trendy or bling features designed to tempt consumers in by offering the most for the money. However, I'd consider myself a high end consumer to that end, so I'm not talking $60 cams here. BTW. I'm not saying all of the preceding aren't useful, just that I'd rather trade some for better quality not least of which because some such as GPS and Data logging could actually count against you or at the very least render the footage unusable if you happened, either by design or accident, to exceed the speed limit prior to an accident. I'd also point out I'm talking generally and not aiming critism at Viofo here, as this is something many manufacturers are guilty of and as I've also mentioned before, any camera has to be considered in the context of it's purchase price. You don't get a Ferrari for Fiesta money.
     
  4. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,697
    Likes Received:
    9,960
    Location:
    Uncanny Valley (●_●)
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    SG9665GC, Mobius/M2 (x7), GT680W (modded), DR32, others
    You've obviously never been in a situation where you've actually needed to use dash cam footage in a law enforcement or insurance matter. Trust me, but sharp lawyers and skilled law enforcement personnel are not going to be fooled by "post" whatever you think that means here. In a courtroom you will be asked to provide your original, full length, raw footage. And tampering with evidence is highly illegal my friend......What an absurd and ridiculous argument for not bothering to set the date and time on a dash cam!

    Another common neophyte dash cam user error you are falling victim to here @c4rc4m is the notion that every situation you ever encounter in your travels that might require dash cam documentation will revolve around a mishap directly in front of you requiring the capture of a plate number. Time and time again members here on DCT describe imaginary scenarios they anticipate might occur with their dash cams that are merely magical or wishful thinking. The car that hits you may not even be in front of you, it may hit you obliquely or the situation may not even involve another vehicle. What if, hypotheically, a pedestrian suddenly runs out in front of your vehicle and is fatally injured? What plate number is going to help you there? The confirmed exact date and time of an incident like that may be of paramount importance.

    It's nice to know that the WR1 camera works for you to capture footage straight out if the box. But for you to repeatedly advocate that it is not at all necessary to have access to the settings or even set the date and time is reaching a mind boggling level of absurdity.

    Again, it's magical thinking based purely on your own remarks. If, as you state, "the camera is absolutely useless if it doesn't capture the number plate and face of the driver" why claim that you (and apparently anyone) have no need to access the settings when some of those simple choices such as the whether to engage HDR or to lower or increase the exposure values are the keys to the optimal video capture you so desire?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
    Module 79L, SawMaster and sone983 like this.
  5. dash riposki

    dash riposki Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,863
    Likes Received:
    2,197
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    Mobiusx3, A118C, A119, Ausdom A261, AD282, etc
    Tags are faked, stolen, missing, or increasingly in the US, obscured. (Like this BMW with the 'special' license plate cover.)

    txbmw.JPG

    I was in slow traffic a few days ago, next to me was a cop car, just ahead of him was a 'ricer-mobile' with an obscured tag like this. I wanted to ask the cop if this was legal in that state, and if not, why the hell didn't he pull the jerk over that was right under his nose!
     
    Module 79L, SawMaster and sone983 like this.
  6. sone983

    sone983 Active Member

    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    231
    Country:
    Serbia
    Dash Cam:
    Yi dashcam,VIOFO WR 1
    In my country better never cross your mind to ask a cop why is he not doing his job,even if he saw law breaking situation, unless you have it recorded on video in case he starts to "rubbing" you instead of doing his job properly. Sorry about this litlle off topic.

    Sent from my CUBOT MAX using Tapatalk
     
  7. dash riposki

    dash riposki Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,863
    Likes Received:
    2,197
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    Mobiusx3, A118C, A119, Ausdom A261, AD282, etc
    I know some US states have specific laws about this, but was just going to ask a friendly question, if had a chance in the slow traffic.
    :)
     
    sone983 likes this.
  8. sone983

    sone983 Active Member

    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    231
    Country:
    Serbia
    Dash Cam:
    Yi dashcam,VIOFO WR 1
    Friendly or no friendly question they understand that as unfriendly and might "caught you on their radar". All truckers in my country are use to have bribe money when driving, because they are often overloaded ( too much weight onboard ), and mostly not 100% techinacally correct, bad tires, brakes etc.

    Sent from my CUBOT MAX using Tapatalk
     
  9. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    36,994
    Likes Received:
    18,910
    Location:
    Shenzhen, China - Sydney, Australia
    Country:
    China
    Dash Cam:
    Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    how would you feel as a professional driver if you got this message

    dispatch message.jpg

    not great I'd imagine
     
    Module 79L and sone983 like this.
  10. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    3,021
    Location:
    SC
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    Mobius, G1W-S, G1W-HC, WR-1, G1W clone, and more to come!
    I worked a courier route once where the routes were so tightly timed that it was impossible to meet any of them without doing a little speeding along the way no matter what the road conditions were like. It's very unethical but far more common than you'd believe.

    Phil
     
  11. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    98
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I'm well aware tampering is illegal. It also doesn't mean it never happens. Time and date are useful but they're not concrete evidence of time and date, and you're unlikely to have an issue without if your evidence captures the accident. I had someone run into the back of me and because I didn't write the date down, I got it the date 3 weeks out (!) several months later. I was also using a GoPro with no time stamp on. It's largely irrelevent - it's pretty hard to deny an accident if footage shows you and your car involved in one, irrespective of the time and date. Unless someone is claiming you outside of the Statutory Limitation Period which is several years in most jurisdicitions, and you have no means of backing that up, then it's unlikely to matter if the accident occured on a Monday or a Tuesday. Being unable to prove an exact date or time is not the death knell. What's important is the footage captured. For someone who removes and powers down the camera all the time in the absence of back up power, the date / time will always be wrong. It's not the absolute death of your evidence.

    As for original footage, most people are not going to have the original footage as they're going to burn the accident footage off the camera to their pc, and then continue to use the card. There's a difference here between criminal and civil liabilties. Criminal Offences have to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Civil only on the balance of probabilities ie is it more likely you did it than you didn't. (English law jurisdictions, can't comment about other jurisdictions).

    For a side impact I don't think anyone isn't going to turn a forward facing camera around to capture the aftermath or take photos on their cell phone. Cell phone photos contain EXIF data. If the cameras forward and records nothing but a bang then having time and date (which isn't necessarily correct anyway) doesn't prove anything other than a noise was recorded at that cameras set time and date. It's of very little value if not turned around to show the accident aftermath.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying time and date isn't useful, but it isn't the be all and end all and it's only indicative not concrete evidence.

    You seem to have me wrong throughout this thread. I'm not trying to justify Viofo's failings with failing to have the WR1 controllable entirely from the PC. I agree it's useful and desirable to be able to access everything and I fully support calls for a PC App Mobius style that allows that. Won't I don't agree is that the camera is "useless" without a Smart Phone. It's limited to being a pure camera, but it works and captures decent quality usable footage both day and night out of the box. The other things want fixing but they don't stop it being used in it's most basic form in the meantime.
     
  12. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,697
    Likes Received:
    9,960
    Location:
    Uncanny Valley (●_●)
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    SG9665GC, Mobius/M2 (x7), GT680W (modded), DR32, others

    It truly boggles the minds at this point that yet once again you feel the compulsion to engage in this level of prolixity over something as absurd as the basic need to set the time and date on a dash cam. These repeated circular, rabbit hole arguments become increasingly weird and tedious the more you engage in them. Against my better judgement, I will follow you down the hole just this one more time.

    I'm quite sure that every other person in your situation would merely remark that the camera is working for them at the default settings and move on. You on the other hand keep hammering away with tautological arguments about why something as basic and fundamental as setting the date and time is, according to you is essentially "unnecessary" along with all the other standard settings all other experienced dash cam users other than you rely upon for optimal functionality on a daily basis. So sure, the camera will provide basic usability straight out of the box, so no, it's technically not "useless". It is however, highly compromised and to such a degree that only someone like you would argue otherwise. Based on your logic I'll bet if you bought a brand new HDTV that somehow came without a remote control or the ability to adjust the settings or change channels you would argue that watching only one channel at the default settings is all anyone ever needs. :sour:

    So, lets' see; first you claim you don't need the date and time at all because you'll have the license plate number of the car that hit you. Then, after it was pointed out that you might not capture the plate number or a vehicle may come at you from an oblique angle or the situation might not even involve a collision, you suggest that the date and time could be "faked". (more on that later) After that argument was disposed of you moved the goal post once again by claiming that date and time stamps are now somehow "irrelevant" and then move on to theorizing about statutes of limitations and claiming that it doesn't really matter when an incident occurs as long as you capture it. And finally, you suggest a properly configured date and time stamp is only "indicative"as if your wristwatch or the clock in your car might also only be "indicative". Oh, and then you go off on some tangent about cell phone photo EXIF data.

    As for whether a given situation is a criminal violation or a civil liability, how could you ever determine that before a situation even happens to you in regard to what legal ramifications might unfold? How can you assume that your actions behind the wheel of an automobile may or may not result in your being charged with criminal negligence as an unintended result of causing a fatality? Some years ago a friend of mine accidentally ran over a small child on a bicycle who darted out from between two parked cars right in front of his car and then had to spend years years in court defending himself for something that wasn't in any way his fault. If you don't think something like that couldn't happen to any one of us, I have some bad news for you. That's why we have dash cams. They are there to protect us or document whatever unexpected and unanticipated event may happen. It is foolish and naive to imagine or project that one type of incident might happen to you and another might not. Hey, maybe a huge meteor might fall from the sky that gets captured on your dash cam and you'll want to record the time and date that it happened on your footage? You never know, stranger things have happened. ;)

    All these arguments and rationalizations are complete and utter nonsense and merely confirm my assertion that you have never been in an actual real world situation here you have needed dash cam footage (or CCTV footage for that matter) as actionable evidence in a serious legal or insurance matter.

    On these pages I've repeatedly spoken of how I first became interested in dash cams due to ongoing harassment and threatening behavior from someone I once did business with who broke a contract and then became irrationally angry after I hired an attorney to deal with the matter. The guy turned out to be a rather disturbed fellow and he started doing things like swerving his vehicle at me whenever he would see me out on the roads. At one point during a criminal investigation I was required to submit an affidavit and chronology of events to law enforcement. That led to the guy to come up with a long list of alleged alibis claiming that he was actually somewhere else during many of the incidents I listed, except that, guess what? I had numerous examples of dash cam footage and CCTV footage as well with the time and date stamps proving that he was lying about his true whereabouts on those days and times and so were the friends of his who were providing those alibis. It wasn't enough to have just the footage. The date and time stamps were vital!

    As for the concept of faking the date and time on dash cam video, how exactly do you propose to do that? You might not know this but dash cam time stamps click off the seconds as you drive along. That means you would need to overlay a perfect animation on top of your footage that would look plausible and realistic while at the same time erasing the incorrect default time stamps . Not only that, but your video could have to hold up in court to forensic examination from an investigator from the defense or the prosecution or an insurance examiner's office. And what if a prosecutor suddenly demanded to see the clips before and after the one you submitted? Or maybe even some random footage from your camera to establish the veracity of your fake one? What sort of software and skills would you need to pull off a fake time and date stamp like this? How often does this really happen, if at all? Do you have an example you could present? Maybe you should think this through a bit further before suggesting that date and time stamps can easily be "faked" and therefore nobody should rely on the time and date stamps as evidence in their dash cam footage?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
    sone983 likes this.
  13. dash riposki

    dash riposki Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,863
    Likes Received:
    2,197
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    Mobiusx3, A118C, A119, Ausdom A261, AD282, etc

    In the US, that would only apply to the small percentage of drivers who are paid hourly.
    Any company who sent that message out would regret it if the trucks had an accident, even remotely speed related.

    I've had some issues the last few weeks with desk jockey morons who look at a computer, tell me 'it's only XXX miles to X and should take XX.X hours to get there!' without any accommodation for traffic, road construction, hills, weight of load, etc.

    When they are stupid enough to send it via an e-message on the sat communication system in the truck, I take a picture of it, and save it. :)

    I also take pictures of my message to them stating what they want me to do is not legal, or possible, sometimes including profanity. (If they do not accept my first civil response)
    :)




    Years ago, before all the electronic tracking stuff, I worked briefly for a contractor with UPS. UPS would hand you a printed sheet for the run, directions, estimated time for completion, etc. Since we had trucks much faster than the UPS trucks, we could get in earlier, but some of the guys would stop and take a few hour nap....on the clock. :)
     
    jokiin likes this.
  14. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    98
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    There's a difference between "useless" and not customisable until updated. There have been repeated claims its completely useless and unusable without a smart phone. I keep telling you it isn't unusable, you keep insisting it is.

    The camera is far from useless without a smart phone out of the box. You just can't customise it. As I've said many times which you choose to ignore, I fully support the calls for a PC App to allow adjustment without the need for a Smart Phone. It is a shortcoming. However, it doesn't stop it being usable as it works perfectly well without.

    Yes VIOFO need to fix it so it can be adjusted without a phone. But the camera isn't unusable without.

    I'm not going to get involved in long arguments.

    Some quick points:

    1. Regarding false plates, the UK and US are probably very different. The UK has the most CCTV cameras of anywhere in the world, and all major roads have ANPR cameras as do most traffic policing vehicles which render false plates useless as the second you drive past one of the tens of thousands of static ANPR cameras or pass a police car, your plate is instantly checked against the DVLA and Police databases to check that the plate is both valid and not wanted, it's taxed and insured. If it's not valid, wanted or any of the other, the computer immediately informs the police of the cars details, where it is and which direction it's heading in. So in the UK, false plates are practically unheard of unless attached to cars during a robbery: https://www.police.uk/information-and-advice/automatic-number-plate-recognition/ . Even then, a time and date stamp doesn't help with false plates. You're only hope in that situation is the driver is recognisable on camera and known to the police.

    2. Your harassment situation falls well outside of the normal usage of a dash cam and yes in those circumstances a time and date stamp was useful, although even then I'd suggest not vital because assuming you had the guys face, which is vital for proving he damaged your car, even if you can't prove the time and date, he can't deny he did it, if it's clearly him identified on film! The time and date is useful but not essential. I would suggest for accidents, far less significant still. You place far too much weight on something that is unlikely to compromise a road accident claim. Useful yes, vital no.

    3. As for running over children on bicycles, how does a time and date stamp help you? For any accident with injury, the police are called and have reports and records of the time and date. Unless you make a habit of running over small children, I doubt there will be any argument over whether the clip was of the child in question, and even then the clip is likely to show some identifying factors, so again it's not vital. As I said above, you place far too much weight on a stamp that can be incorrect.

    But to be clear, I do support time and date stamping, I just think you put far too much weight on something that isn't vital. Useful yes, vital no.
     
  15. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,697
    Likes Received:
    9,960
    Location:
    Uncanny Valley (●_●)
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    SG9665GC, Mobius/M2 (x7), GT680W (modded), DR32, others
    "I'm not going to get involved in long arguments."

    Hah! Hah! This has to be one of the more hilarious statements I've heard you make yet!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: .......And then, of course, you launch right into a non sequitur discussion of false plate numbers on ANPR cameras which for some reason you now feel to be germane. :rolleyes:

    Obviously, as pointed out the other day and that you keep demonstrating over and over, you have never been in a real world situation where you have been required to submit dash cam footage to law enforcement, courts, or insurance examiners. The very first item on a police report will be the location, date and time of your incident. And often that report doesn't even get filed until long after the incident. The correct time and date on your footage can not only help your case but may indeed be vitally important based on the particular situation you find yourself in. Having the incorrect default settings for time and date imprinted on your video will only confuse matters when it lands on the desk of a disinterested third party, court official, bureaucrat, prosecutor or insurance adjuster and so might actually compromise your claim or legal case depending on the particular circumstances. If you don't care to set the time and date, or think it important, or to have access to any of the many menu settings in your camera, that's fine. But to spend this amount of time and verbiage on this subject, trying to justify it is truly weird already. You are very likely the only member here who would buy a camera they have no way to adjust and then spend so much effort trying to convince everyone there's no need to. And while I'm confident that 99.99% of other dash cam owners don't subscribe to your thinking about so many of your concepts about dash cam usage, I'm so very glad to know that you do indeed at least "support time and date stamping". ;) Thanks for the endorsement.

    I mentioned the other day that you seem to make an odd habit of continually moving the goal posts in your arguments to support your position and now you've done it again here. In response to my mention of using dash cams to protect myself from harassment from an individual you tried to make a distinction between civil penalties and criminal penalties, so I told the story of how a friend of mine hit a boy on a bicycle who darted out between two parked cars and was charged with criminal negligence as a result. A dash cam would have certainly help him out in that situation, as an innocent driver unfairly charge with a criminal offense. The idea was to explain that dash cams are there to protect the user from any unanticipated encounter, civil, criminal or otherwise. Yet now, for some peculiar reason here you are conflating my remarks with the time and date stamp issue which I NEVER implied in regard to that scenario.

    This is an example of why these repeated, endless, circular arguments with you become so tedious and pointless regardless of the subject matter. For that reason, I will now bow out. I've had more than enough of this.



     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    SawMaster and sone983 like this.
  16. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    98
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I was a Personal Injury and Road Traffic Accident litigation lawyer.

    As for date and time stamp, as I said you put too much weight on something that isn't concrete proof. It's useful but it proves nothing concrete as date and time stamps can be set wrong, can be altered etc. It's indicative only. The real proof is in the footage. If the footage shows Joe Average running into your car or vandalising it, then the time and date stamp is irrelevent. It proves he did it. The only time you're going to have a real issue is if limitation arguments come into play. I've never heard anyone argue the footage was from 3 years before (time depends on your jurisdiction). However, there are other ways of proving the accident was recent.

    It's your opinion and mine. Either way the whole convoluted arguing you made was about being unable to access this vital feature or that and thererfore claims the WR1 is useless without a Smart Phone, which it isn't. It might not enable you to customise it as you want and access all the features, but as I've constantly pointed out that's not useless, it's limited.

    It wants addressing, but it's not the be all and end all of what is a good camera out of the box for the money.






    BTW all opinions are my own, not intended to be advice or relied upon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  17. SawMaster

    SawMaster Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    3,021
    Location:
    SC
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    Mobius, G1W-S, G1W-HC, WR-1, G1W clone, and more to come!
    That explains much about your verbosity and your inability to give any validity to the thoughts of others. As well as your intentional overlooking of facts and matters whuch point out where you're wrong.

    To wit, in your next response please tell the world how to format a SD card in the WR-1 without using a smartphone or any other device so that the camera will be able to actually record images. You can't because it isn't possible :eek:

    I didn't press that point in the WR-1 issies thread because I didn't want to subject the rest of DCT to another one of your long-winded thinly veiled attempts to defend your often indefensible positions. But I am doing so now so either directly show us how to format that card, admit that the WT-1 is indeed useless as a cam when taken singly, or ST#U so the rest of us can enjoy reading about and learning about cams instead of hearing your often inane opinions.

    You would do much better to give real consideration to what others think instead of dismissing everyone else's thoughts simply because yours are different ;) You are as likely to be wrong as anyone else is, and with your obsequious attitudes toward everyo0ne else you're not going to find many friends either :( You see, I was once much like you but I learned to be better :D Maybe you can too.

    Phil
     
    sone983 and Dashmellow like this.
  18. jokiin

    jokiin Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    36,994
    Likes Received:
    18,910
    Location:
    Shenzhen, China - Sydney, Australia
    Country:
    China
    Dash Cam:
    Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    to be fair it's only a problem to format cards if they are larger than 32gb, cards that are FAT32 already (32gb or smaller) will work without having to format first
     
    SawMaster likes this.
  19. Dashmellow

    Dashmellow Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,697
    Likes Received:
    9,960
    Location:
    Uncanny Valley (●_●)
    Country:
    United States
    Dash Cam:
    SG9665GC, Mobius/M2 (x7), GT680W (modded), DR32, others
    Interesting to hear you had a career in barratry. If true, it explains much about your propensity to endlessly pursue groundless argument. Wonder why the ambulance chaser career didn't quite pan out for you?
     
    SawMaster likes this.
  20. c4rc4m

    c4rc4m Active Member

    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    98
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    The SD card can be formatted in a PC / laptop using a reader and the PC App....

    I'm sorry Phil if you have found my posts offensive. It was certainly not my intention. I do support all the calls for the software to be altered as I've said repeatedly and I do support the list of issues people have come up with. I just take issue with the claim that the camera is "useless" as it stands. That clearly isn't the case as it's "limited". There is a difference.

    Simply because I was fed up with long hours for what in the UK is little gain. 12 hour days for less than a dustman = better careers out there.
     

Share This Page