MicroSD options, including MLC cards

[jokiin]

Cards supplied with our cameras are covered for the same warranty period as the camera, Transcend support that for us

 

[Nigel]

*The Limited Lifetime Warranty will not apply to any Transcend memory cards being used in write-intensive applications, including but not limited to (as determined by Transcend): (i) recursive / in-car recording devices, (ii) video monitoring and surveillance devices, (iii) continuous data logging devices like servers, or (iv) other excessive uses that exceed normal use.

Whatever is written in the warrantee, most of the manufacturers will honour the warrantee even if it is used in a dashcam up until the number of write cycles exceeds the expected lifetime of the card and the card has been worn out. After that, like a worn out battery or worn out light bulb the warrantee is useless, before that, even if they say they don't warrantee it, if it fails then it is almost certainly a manufacturing fault and they legally have to warrantee it under consumer protection law.

Expected lifetime for a TLC card is around 1000 write cycles, for an MLC card 2500 write cycles, the warrantee probably runs out at around 80% of those figures.

So if you only record for 12 hours a day, you should find 64GB TLC cards 100% reliable and under warrantee for over 2 years, so replace them at 2 years old and they will be just as reliable as "Transcend High Endurance MLC ECC". If you record for 24 hours a day then replace them at 1 year old. Move up to 128GB cards and you can double the replacement period since you will be writing to each cell half as often. If you use an unusually high data rate then you will need to shorten the replacement period.

At current MLC prices, it is hard to justify them given that a TLC card double the size is around the same price and will have almost the same lifetime but with the advantage that it will keep your loop recordings for twice as long before overwriting.

Now how long will that "Transcend High Endurance 64GB" actually last when used for loop recording 24 hours a day? At what age do I have to replace it to be sure that I wont find the recordings corrupt when I need them? Will it actually last any longer than the Samsung Evo+ 256GB which keeps my video on the card for 4x longer before overwriting? Unlikely, and even if they do honour the warrantee on a worn out card, I will still have lost that video I needed!

 

[AndrewL]

So if you only record for 12 hours a day, you should find 64GB TLC cards 100% reliable and under warrantee for over 2 years, so replace them at 2 years old and they will be just as reliable as "Transcend High Endurance MLC ECC".

It's more like a mean time before failure rather than a guarantee that each card will last that long before having problems. A better card with MLC or ECC properly made should be more reliable in the two years when looking at the average. Of course value comes into play, there's always trade offs with all our spending decisions.

The controller for Samsung would probably be most important. If it decides to lock the card early like the Sandisk Ultra it would be most important.

Too bad the testing would take a lot of resources. What's a statistically significant test? 30-40 cards? 4000 hours of data writing?

 

[Nigel]

It's more like a mean time before failure rather than a guarantee that each card will last that long before having problems. A better card with MLC or ECC properly made should be more reliable in the two years when looking at the average. Of course value comes into play, there's always trade offs with all our spending decisions.

The cards do actually wear out, you are almost certain to get 900 write cycles from a TLC card, but would be lucky to get 1100 and would almost certainly not get 1500. Also, as the number of failed cells increases the card gets slower until it reaches the point where it is unusable.

 

[Deacon]

After arguing your case that saving a few bucks on a cheap TLC card is a more sensible choice, you then double back and basically agree that even if warranties are honored, you've still potentially lost that video you needed. And that's setting aside your unsourced random claims about legal requirements, about which I remain highly skeptical and wonder how much you'd want to spend in court fighting them on it even if it were true.

Part of the reason I've asked people in this thread to provide sources is because of misinformation like the number of write cycles and resulting life expectancy. Not just that it ignores the quality of build and yield quality, but when a manufacturer claims 12,000 hours of recording, then in your scenario where you're recording 12 hours a day that's nearly 3 years, not two. And that's at 26Mbps recording rate, as compared to the SG9665GC's 15Mbps rate, which nearly doubles that. And that's in an MLC card built for heavy duty. That has ECC, which for some reason you insist is irrelevant and meaningless.

I would imagine that by the time 5 years comes around and you're thinking about replacing your card as preventative maintenance, you might also be looking for a new cam altogether and there might well be cool new technologies out there that mean you don't just keep buying the same microSD card again and again. But even if you do, great, it's cost you $10/ year. If you're replacing a cheap TLC card every 12, 18, or 24 months, how much are you really saving? Even if you kept that TLC card the entire time and fate smiled at you with no failures, you've still saved, what, $5 every year? Total? A penny a day? For a gamble?

And please don't then double back again and try to justify your purchase of a 256GB EVO+ card that costs way more than the others. I support you buying that card. I think it's great, and it's an exciting new technology. But it's not a decision you're making around cost savings. If you get 5 years out of a Transcend 64GB High Endurance, then if you're going to spend 4x that on your Samsung card, do you believe you're going to keep it in your dashcam for 20 years?

I myself might end up picking up a V-NAND card at some point before too long. But that has nothing to do with cost savings and only out of a sheer sense of curiosity to see how it does and how it holds up. Personally I cannot fathom going through 40 hours of recorded driving video, which is about what 256GB will hold in the GC. But I don't mind being an early adopter sometimes and even paying for the privilege if it's interesting enough.

 

[SawMaster]

Now how long will that "Transcend High Endurance 64GB" actually last when used for loop recording 24 hours a day? At what age do I have to replace it to be sure that I wont find the recordings corrupt when I need them?

Can't say for this card, but their 400X card has gone about a year in my Mobius @24/7 and h2testw says it is still 100% I just replaced it rather than worrying about it and am keeping the old card for 'backup' should a card fail while on the road.

Will it actually last any longer than the Samsung Evo+ 256GB which keeps my video on the card for 4x longer before overwriting? Unlikely, and even if they do honour the warrantee on a worn out card, I will still have lost that video I needed!

This is why I say don't bother with warranties except for new or almost new products which are costly. The time it takes to send a card and have them check it you are without use of the card, and if it is your only card you're dead in the water If they reject your claim you've got the shipping time for a new card. To me anyway, that time is more valuable than a $40 card and there's no compensation for it. Just select a good card with knowledge about your selection, and if it performs as you like buy another one before it wears out. If you're frugal use the old card for a non-critical purpose till it's dead and you will have gotten your money's worth.

There is a cost to 'being in the game' whether dashcams or anything else. If you're not ready to pay that cost you don't need to be in the game or you need to take a different approach to it. A defective product usually dies quickly- that's what a warranty is for Using a warranty to try to evade the cost of being in the game is not a warranty's purpose. Just my approach to he matter of warranties, YMMV, but I don;t get worked up with worry about warranties like some folks in this thread seem to which seems to vindicate my approach

This thread is good for acquiring knowledge of SD cards and I'm glad to see it here
Phil

 

[budster]

I'm just wondering if there's anyway for dashcam manufacturers to be able to detect when a microsd card can't be written to anymore and sound an alarm if this happens. If possible, then one could use cheaper memory cards and replace them as needed. I know on the A118C when I was using Sandisk Ultra cards before, I had no idea that recording was not working for several months due to the Sandisk cards getting locked to be read only, and the A118C gave no indication that there was a problem.

But I'm guessing this is probably not possible as when I was testing the bad Sandisk Ultra cards, even when I tried copying files to it on a Windows computer, Windows gave no indication the files weren't really being copied and you could only see this when ejecting the card and inserting it back into the computer to see that the copied files were not present.

 

[DrekiTech]

I'm just wondering if there's anyway for dashcam manufacturers to be able to detect when a microsd card can't be written to anymore and sound an alarm if this happens.

It's not something I'd rely on. I put a completely dead Micro SD in my A119 and it beeped and said "Card Error". Other cams just say "card error" without an audible indication. This card is completely dead though. I have other cards that will corrupt some footage and in that case the camera still thinks it is successfully writing to the card, so there's no way for the cam to know that the card is screwed up.

 

[DrekiTech]

I saw some of these Adata cards floating around our local computer store and the packaging claimed MLC + ECC + Lifetime Warranty so I thought I'd make a note of it here.

I have some of their low end cards which are not MLC based but allegedly support ECC. I've been using them in my smartphone but I might throw one into the dash cam and run it for a few months to see how well it works. I paid $11 CAD for a 32 gig so there's not much lost if it does die and Adata will not support the warranty.

Have you tried Adata cards before?

 

[Deacon]

I have not. But just over 10 years ago I did get a 2GB thumb drive made by them that seemed to work fine.

Very nice find, and I really appreciate you providing those links. They do bury the lead on MLC and "advanced error correction technology" even in their PDF: http://www.adata.com/upload/downloadfile/Datasheet-PremierPro_microSDXC_201601.pdf

But an MLC ECC U3 card with a lifetime warranty not voided by use in dashcams is intriguing. And on Amazon they're about $10 less than the Transcend cards. I'm not sure if that's a fantastic deal or a little too good to be true.

 

[DrekiTech]

I have not. But just over 10 years ago I did get a 2GB thumb drive made by them that seemed to work fine.

Very nice find, and I really appreciate you providing those links. They do bury the lead on MLC and "advanced error correction technology" even in their PDF: http://www.adata.com/upload/downloadfile/Datasheet-PremierPro_microSDXC_201601.pdf

But an MLC ECC U3 card with a lifetime warranty not voided by use in dashcams is intriguing. And on Amazon they're about $10 less than the Transcend cards. I'm not sure if that's a fantastic deal or a little too good to be true.

On Amazon I can only find their non-MLC based (Premier) not the Premier Pro line. That being said the pro line at NCIX is $40 CAD for 64GB ($30 usd at current exchange) which is $10 cheaper than Transcend. So maybe I'll have to pick one up next time I'm at the store and do a bit of a comparison/review. Hope it's not too good to be true.

 

[reverend]

I heard back from the guy over at OurBerries and he confirmed that it was Lexar Korea themselves who had confirmed to them that the 633x 64GB and 128GB cards were MLC at the time they reviewed them.

That was a while ago but without tearing these things apart as a consumer we can't tell.

 

[Deacon]

You couldn't tell even then, unless they happened to label them. Thanks for sharing that info, as it's good to know where it came from. It's great that some random rep at Lexar told them something, but that's not much to go on when it's not documented or confirmed as such anywhere. And it wouldn't be the first time a marketing or phone rep has nodded and smiled when asked or just plain been misinformed.

 

[reverend]

Short of digesting the cards down with nitric acid and then reading the part numbers of the controller and NAND you'd never know for sure - you may even get some shocks of cards which you think are MLC as corporations these days are always looking to save money somewhere.

You may want to update the first line in your post - a reputable review site getting confirmation from someone at Lexar holds more weight than you or I.

Lexar 633x does not use MLC NAND despite rumors floating around the interwebs that all come from a single source or two who were purely speculating

 

[Deacon]

Will you please remind me of the link to that site that claims they have it on good authority from someone at Lexar that they're hiding the MLC status of their 633x cards and explains how they're breaking through barriers by offering 256GB MLC microSD while the competition hasn't been able to break 64GB?

Because there's nothing to support it other than your claim of a claim. Which is nothing against you or whoever the other person is who's making the claim, of course. Just that I'm rather skeptical as all evidence is to the contrary.

 

[jokiin]

Will you please remind me of the link to that site that claims they have it on good authority from someone at Lexar that they're hiding the MLC status of their 633x cards and explains how they're breaking through barriers by offering 256GB MLC microSD while the competition hasn't been able to break 64GB?.

according to our rep we deal with at Transcend 64GB is their current limit for MLC in MicroSD format, I don't know if that applies to other brands but it did sound like it was a technical limitation

 

[reverend]

Will you please remind me of the link to that site that claims they have it on good authority from someone at Lexar that they're hiding the MLC status of their 633x cards and explains how they're breaking through barriers by offering 256GB MLC microSD while the competition hasn't been able to break 64GB?

Because there's nothing to support it other than your claim of a claim. Which is nothing against you or whoever the other person is who's making the claim, of course. Just that I'm rather skeptical as all evidence is to the contrary.

They never claimed 256GB was - they just told the reviewer that the 64GB and 128GB cards were MLC unless you've read that elsewhere?

The write pattern of the 128GB card was different which suggested it looked more like TLC from what we could see at the time - the 64GB cards when they came out behaved more like MLC does.

You could just ask the guy at OurBerries directly if he could give you the contact he has to make life a bit easier as you could reach out to them directly as you'll never believe anything anyone else says anyway.

Like I say seeing part numbers of the controller and NAND on the card are the only real way of knowing for sure either way.

 

[DrekiTech]

Is there any way to definitely test if a card is MLC without opening the card up?

 

[reverend]

Is there any way to definitely test if a card is MLC without opening the card up?

Not that I know of so it's just assumptions - the only real way would be to get to the guts via something like nitric acid and then read the part numbers of the controller and NAND so it's advanced stuff.

You can see tens of pages of Korean sellers below listing the Lexar cards as MLC - historically the Koreans seem to be more straight up with the technical info than Western marketers:

http://bfy.tw/9JKi

There's always the chance they started one way and then swapped when it became cheaper - I'm not tearing the ones I have apart though as they're still working and have a great warranty

 

[Deacon]

Not that I know of so it's just assumptions

No, the only assumption is that Lexar is the only company in the world producing 128GB MLC microSD cards, and they're keeping it a secret and charging cut-rate TLC prices for it.

I think it's sufficient to go by manufacturer documentation and marketing. Which in this case makes no claim whatsoever that the 633x cards are MLC. Whether some dudes selling cards on Korean eBay take web rumors about MLC and put it in their item descriptions does not change that.