Newbie with Handicap Van

[kamkar]

Welcome BusterDuster
For your need a dual system with the memory cards in the front unit must be the best, i could imagine retrieving a card from a solo cam in the rear of your car could be a problem for you.

 

[BusterDuster]

Welcome BusterDuster
For your need a dual system with the memory cards in the front unit must be the best, i could imagine retrieving a card from a solo cam in the rear of your car could be a problem for you.

Thank you kamkart, I think you are spot on. The rear hatch opens and the cam would basically be mostly upside down. Accessing it is problematic as it is difficult for me to stand and harder to work the programing awkwardly. It would be somewhat difficult retrieving the sd card to review on my PC or format, but another issue is that their would be no synchronization with the front cam. An integrated system is needed I think.

This year I have had two incidents with tailgaters that have driven me here, a rear cam is important. The K1S system might work as the control unit would be down near the console somewhere (not sure where). It would take four or five feet of cable to get down that far but that is using the front remote cameras cable. So, essentially there is less distance and cable needed from the unit (at the console area) to the rear camera so the 6 meters would probably work. One of the things I dislike about the K1S is all the cables coming out of the unit (5 total using everything). Clearly a cable management task, and could have problems with bad connections if the unit is moved or jiggled. Someone mentioned a cable signal booster of some sort. These are used for cams/cameras for long distances, wonder if anybody has tried with a dash cam... I sent an email to Lukas, not sure if I will get a response, I read that basically there is no support... I find that odd as they are an ISO 9000 certified company. I hope this gives any members that read this more insight into my issues (Oh, I also live in the desert so summer temperature is hot). Thanks to everyone that have responded, Cheers.

 

[GrahamS]

Trying to educate myself here - what would necessitate formatting the card every few weeks, or whatever period you choose?

Presumably if you'd noticed issues with the files being saved? Or just as some sensible housekeeping exercise to preemptively stop the disk from being corrupted?

 

[kamkar]

I never format my cards.
They do make the trip to my computer once in a while, but only so i can copy off the files i need for yet another youtube upload.

Or rather i do format card, but only in relation to a firmware update.

 

[Dashmellow]

Trying to educate myself here - what would necessitate formatting the card every few weeks, or whatever period you choose?

Presumably if you'd noticed issues with the files being saved? Or just as some sensible housekeeping exercise to preemptively stop the disk from being corrupted?

Generally speaking, you don't need to format an SD Card, but it's always a good idea to format any flash memory card occasionally.

First, it creates an environment (FAT, folder structure, etc.) that the camera is designed to use. New cards are formatted with a generic structure, but the camera may stumble around when trying to store files within a non-native folder structure. For this reason, it is always a good practice to use your dash camera to format the SD card you wish to use in it rather than formatting it with your computer.

Second, the more you use a flash memory card, the more fragmented the free space and the file allocation table (FAT) will become. That means that, as time goes by, it will take longer for the camera to write new video files to the card and it will be more prone to errors.

You shouldn't format flash memory devices too often either. Unlike magnetic media, flash memory can only be written to a finite number of times (the actual number around 100,000, but it's still finite.) Formatting does a lot of writing, so everytime you format a flash memory device, you're getting that much closer to the point where you can't write to it anymore. (A good quality microSD card should provide at least several years of full time dash cam use.)

 

[GrahamS]

Thank you

 

[Dashmellow]

You're welcome.

 

[BusterDuster]

Generally speaking, you don't need to format an SD Card, but it's always a good idea to format any flash memory card occasionally.

First, it creates an environment (FAT, folder structure, etc.) that the camera is designed to use. New cards are formatted with a generic structure, but the camera may stumble around when trying to store files within a non-native folder structure. For this reason, it is always a good practice to use your dash camera to format the SD card you wish to use in it rather than formatting it with your computer.

Second, the more you use a flash memory card, the more fragmented the free space and the file allocation table (FAT) will become. That means that, as time goes by, it will take longer for the camera to write new video files to the card and it will be more prone to errors.

You shouldn't format flash memory devices too often either. Unlike magnetic media, flash memory can only be written to a finite number of times (the actual number is in the millions, but it's still finite.) Formatting does a lot of writing, so everytime you format a flash memory device, you're getting that much closer to the point where you can't write to it anymore. (A good quality microSD card should provide at least several years of full time dash cam use.)

Sorry all, I read somewhere that you needed to re-format the cards often, apparently that was misleading...

 

[Nigel]

You shouldn't format flash memory devices too often either. Unlike magnetic media, flash memory can only be written to a finite number of times (the actual number is in the millions, but it's still finite.) Formatting does a lot of writing, so everytime you format a flash memory device, you're getting that much closer to the point where you can't write to it anymore. (A good quality microSD card should provide at least several years of full time dash cam use.)

A typical card is only around 1000 writes to each location, not millions.

The best format for a card should be the one it is given at the factory since that is likely to be optimised for the card. The camera may format it with the wrong sector size for optimal lifespan of the card. If you need to format it due to corruption then the SD Assotiation formatter claims to get it correct: https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_4/

With a decent operating system, the card should not become any more fragmented once you have looped around it a few times, so if your camera can manage a few loops it can probably continue without formatting until the card wears out. Class 6 or better cards are fast enough that a bit of fragmentation should have an immeasurable effect anyway.

You do need to format the card if it gets corrupted, either by the camera crashing or by removing it without first halting the recording.

The card in my rear camera was formatted last year, it's still working fine.

 

[Dashmellow]

1000 writes? Where do you get this stuff? All modern memory cards can withstand at least 100,000 Write/Erase Cycles, and some cards can withstand as many as 10 times that.

Some dash cams seem fine with factory formatting, however I've experienced cameras that refused to work properly until the card was formatted in camera.

Your advice here contradicts everything I have ever read or heard from camera manufacturers regarding SD card management. SD formatter works well but just about every high end camera manufacturer I know of recommends formatting cards in their own device.

 

[CheckYourLights]

I just wanted to mention that while I don't have one the Vico-Marcus 5 might be something to look at. I have a single cam Marcus 3 and like it.

The menu buttons are big and easy to get at, and I like the way Vico cameras lock files with 30 seconds before and after the lock button is pressed.

 

[Nigel]

1000 writes? Where do you get this stuff? All modern memory cards can withstand at least 100,000 Write/Erase Cycles, and some cards can withstand as many as 10 times that.

Some dash cams seem fine with factory formatting, however I've experienced cameras that refused to work properly until the card was formatted in camera.

Your advice here contradicts everything I have ever read or heard from camera manufacturers regarding SD card management. SD formatter works well but just about every high end camera manufacturer I know of recommends formatting cards in their own device.

How about Kingston's 2015 guide to flash memory which states that current technology TLC flash memory (which is used in most current memory cards) can handle up to 500 write cycles, if you spend a bit extra for an MLC card such as the Samsung Pro then you get up to 3000:

• For Multi-Level Cell (MLC) Flash, up to 3000 write cycles per physical sector based on current lithography process
(19nm and 20nm) at the time of this writing. For Single-Level Cell (SLC) Flash, up to 30,000 write cycles per
physical sector. For Triple-level Cell (TLC), up to 500 write cycles per physical sector. Lithography of the Flash
Memory Die plays a key role in cell endurance and decreases as the size of the die gets smaller.

http://media.kingston.com/pdfs/MKF_283.1_Flash_Memory_Guide_EN.pdf

 

[BusterDuster]

I just wanted to mention that while I don't have one the Vico-Marcus 5 might be something to look at. I have a single cam Marcus 3 and like it.

The menu buttons are big and easy to get at, and I like the way Vico cameras lock files with 30 seconds before and after the lock button is pressed.

Thank you CheckYouLights, I have looked at the Marcus 5 and really like the specs, especially temp resistance. I believe their rear camera cable length is 6 meters which may not make it to the rear of my van, installers say they need 20-25 feet.

I happen to like Lukas, they are a real company (they replied the next day to my email) , ISO 9000 Certified and also have impressive specs too along with good heat resistance. The 7950WD is feature rich and I will be buying that provided they distribute the longer cables as recently promised. See post Lukas->7950->Lukas will provide longer cables for big vehicles (full size vans) on this forum. I think this is the link

 

[Dashmellow]

How about Kingston's 2015 guide to flash memory which states that current technology TLC flash memory (which is used in most current memory cards) can handle up to 500 write cycles, if you spend a bit extra for an MLC card such as the Samsung Pro then you get up to 3000:

The spec you cite appears to be referring to SSD storage devices , although regarding SSD there are authoritative sources that conflict with this notion. "An MLC cell is typically rated at 10,000 erase/write cycles, while an SLC cell might last 10 times that before failing."

Also: "Most commercially available flash products are guaranteed to withstand around 100,000 P/E cycles before the wear begins to deteriorate the integrity of the storage. Micron Technology and Sun Microsystems announced an SLC NAND flash memory chip rated for 1,000,000 P/E cycles on 17 December 2008."

Also see: http://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/SSSI_NAND_Reliability_White_Paper_0.pdf

In any event, I agree, the "millions" of writes cycles statement was in error.

 

[Dashmellow]

Regarding formatting SDs card in the camera: SDCardsExplained

"In general if I am looking to format a card I will try to format in the device first; this is particularly true for cameras and video recorders. By doing this in the device you insure you have the right set up for that device."

 

[Nigel]

The spec you cite appears to be referring to SSD storage devices , although regarding SSD there are authoritative sources that conflict with this notion. "An MLC cell is typically rated at 10,000 erase/write cycles, while an SLC cell might last 10 times that before failing."

Also: "Most commercially available flash products are guaranteed to withstand around 100,000 P/E cycles before the wear begins to deteriorate the integrity of the storage. Micron Technology and Sun Microsystems announced an SLC NAND flash memory chip rated for 1,000,000 P/E cycles on 17 December 2008."

Also see: http://www.snia.org/sites/default/files/SSSI_NAND_Reliability_White_Paper_0.pdf

In any event, I agree, the "millions" of writes cycles statement was in error.

It covers all Kingston 2015 flash memory, see section: 7.3 Secure Digital Cards (SD, SDHC, SDXC, microSD, microSDHC, microSDXC)

Your links are all way out of date, the lifetime of flash memory has reduced considerably over the last few years as density has increased, a 2008 article tells us nothing about 2015 flash memory, which is why I cited a 2015 guide.

 

[Dashmellow]

It covers all Kingston 2015 flash memory, see section: 7.3 Secure Digital Cards (SD, SDHC, SDXC, microSD, microSDHC, microSDXC)

Your links are all way out of date, the lifetime of flash memory has reduced considerably over the last few years as density has increased, a 2008 article tells us nothing about 2015 flash memory, which is why I cited a 2015 guide.

According to the SNIA (Storage Network Initiative Association - Solid State Storage Initiative) the increasingly robust error correction methods developed in the last several years concurrent with the increase in memory densities has increased the useful life of these chips, not made them worse. When the SNIA states that, "most commercially available flash products are guaranteed to withstand around 100,000 P/E cycles before the wear begins to deteriorate the integrity of the storage" I believe them. The Kingston guide refers to 3000 to 30,000 write cycles per sector but that ignores the global factor of many thousands of erase/write cycles, and that card controllers use an algorithm that balances the wear across the entire card's cells. In section 7.3 of the Kingston guide you linked there is nothing whatsoever that says anything at all about flash memory life being "reduced considerably", although it does mention "important technological advancements ".

Interesting that you should claim that , "lifetime of flash memory has reduced considerably over the last few years as density has increased, whereas the article I cited, "Micron Collaborates with Sun Microsystems to Extend Lifespan of Flash-Based Storage - Achieves One Million Write Cycles" -- "Micron is now sampling its Enterprise NAND in densities up to 32 gigabits (Gb). Volume production is expected in the first quarter of 2009". I guess according to you the technology is marching backwards now from where it was in 2009. While it is true that SD storage has limitations and drawbacks the fact is that it has continued to improve as time goes on rather than get worse. (except apparently for SanDisk products )

 

[BusterDuster]

I made a comment that Lukas was ISO 9000 certified. I would like to correct that. I read the following off a Lukas website: "Lukas blackbox has acquired ISO/TS 16949 certification, getting global accolade for its supreme quality. The ISO/TS 16949 is a quality requirement for automobiles initiated by the International Automotive Task Force (IATF)." I'm not trying to bang their drum, just doing my homework.