Reviews for Products Supplied Free

[Dashmellow]

I guess I've become increasing troubled and perhaps a bit annoyed by what I see as a growing trend here on DCT where vendors enlist members to do "reviews" and then ship them free products for this purpose but rather than objective critical reviews and analysis, we get endorsements, discount coupon codes and links to the products. Not very long ago, on January 28th, @DashCamMan announced that retailers would no longer be allowed to post direct links to their products/sites outside of the vendor's forums yet this seems to be essentially an end-run around the new ruling.

In your initial post to this thread you mention the price, the fact that you think it is a "good" deal and then in comparison to the Anker (without mentioning which model, BTW) go on to call it a "great" deal. We also get an as yet unsubstantiated opinion about the quality/performance of the cells inside this unit; at this point in time a speculation, regardless of their pedigree. Then we get the product link and a discount coupon code.

Usually, such endorsements and glowing recommendations are made AFTER thorough testing and reviewing of a product, not before. No?

 

[GJHS]

I apologize for my tone GJHS, I didn't mean to offend you. I guess I've become increasing troubled and perhaps a bit annoyed by what I see as a growing trend here on DCT where vendors enlist members to do "reviews" and then ship them free products for this purpose but rather than objective critical reviews and analysis, we get endorsements, discount coupon codes and links to the products. Not very long ago, on January 28th, @DashCamMan announced that retailers would no longer be allowed to post direct links to their products/sites outside of the vendor's forums yet this seems to be essentially an end-run around the new ruling.

In your initial post to this thread you mention the price, the fact that you think it is a "good" deal and then in comparison to the Anker (without mentioning which model, BTW) go on to call it a "great" deal. We also get an as yet unsubstantiated opinion about the quality/performance of the cells inside this unit; at this point in time a speculation, regardless of their pedigree. Then we get the product link and a discount coupon code.

Usually, such endorsements and glowing recommendations are made AFTER thorough testing and reviewing of a product, not before. No?

It's Ok, calling me out in the forum rather than a friendly PM. I have edited and removed my comparison comments since I don't on the Anker to compare. I will be more careful in the future.

Normally I don't compare things and that was a mistake. Having done a ton of research and reading so much about the Xiaomi pack itself and its quality maybe my post was too quick. I didn't think heavy specs would fit here, so I included a photo and link to the batteries used, figuring anyone who wanted to research them more, could get the specs. I also provided a link to show the pack was indeed real.

So here are the battery specs: This new model of LG batteries is the LGABE11865, with purple PVC jacket, they have a nominal capacity of 3200mAh (12.0Wh), a minimum capacity of 3100mAh (11.6Wh); charging cut-off voltage of 4.35V (± 0.05V), discharge cut-off voltage of 2.75V; batteries internal resistance of 50 milliohms or less the maximum discharge current of 4.65A; They each weigh about 49g or so, compared to LGABB41865 (2600mAh) is 48g heavier by only 1g, the new technology to make the energy density has been significantly improved.

These higher power 4.35V batteries are becoming popular and will replace the 4.20V soon enough. I wish the cut off voltage was higher, my Keeppower Panasonic 3400mAhs cut off at 2.90V. I will investigate to see at what point the Xiaomi protection circuit kicks in.

 

[Dashmellow]

GJHS, all in all, my remarks were really addressed to the broader issue of having numerous DCT members promoting, endorsing, providing prices/discount codes and linking to products that have been provided to them for free by the retailers offering them for sale. I believe such an approach corrupts the traditional review process. The other day I came upon a "review" thread here on DCT where a member has included 70 links to products in that single thread alone. I guess sending you a PM would not have brought the subject into the open for discussion and it is hardly this thread alone that became the catalyst for my speaking up about it. I apologize for making you uncomfortable.

 

[GJHS]

I can see how sending free items to review can muddy the waters, yet I think the reviews here have been honest. There is no reason not to be, what compensation is there? As you and I have discussed before. The adavantage to forum is that more cameras get into the hands of senior members who can give an honest review, work out the bugs and learn the cameras to help others decide and set them up. It also keeps the sellers honest because we check if they're real and trust me, we complain if they're not working right. If you need proof, see @Sunny 's experience with two 0806 cameras. Those 0806 major changes happened because of review and Beta cameras. A lot of behind the scenes conversations happen to make things right.

Maybe we should lay down some ground rules, if everyone feels the reviews are getting too seller biased and commercial.

 

[petepete]

I can see how sending free items to review can muddy the waters, yet I think the reviews here have been honest. There is no reason not to be, what compensation is there? As you and I have discussed before. The adavantage to forum is that more cameras get into the hands of senior members who can give an honest review, work out the bugs and learn the cameras to help others decide and set them up. It also keeps the sellers honest because we check if they're real and trust me, we complain if they're not working right. If you need proof, see @Sunny 's experience with two 0806 cameras. Those 0806 major changes happened because of review and Beta cameras. A lot of behind the scenes conversations happen to make things right.

Maybe we should lay down some ground rules, if everyone feels the reviews are getting too seller biased and commercial.

Its probably been the wrong product to highlight the problem as the "x" is rather good...

The mini o806 is a far better example as some rather good tempting footage and reviews appeared pre order and a bit of a demand was whipped up ...

And months down the line we find a poll with 45% having had problems having to disembowel their 0806 in an attempt to repair or pay return postage for a refund and a clear repeat of history following in the footsteps of the

"mini 080 " models...

you have to ask yourself if seller integrity remains intact judging by the profit made in selling
batch 2 swiftly after it was apparent batch 1 had failings - in other words were known problems ironed out in batch 2...

Historic posts on the forum clearly support Dashmellows direction of thought.

 

[jokiin]

I think there's some products around that have had a bit of love that they probably don't deserve, whatever drives that sort of behaviour I don't know but I think more than a few people have been disappointed when a product doesn't meet expectation which is really not fair on the end user, for sure some people hand on their heart recommend something because they believe it's a great product, is it always the case, I don't think so

I see occasionally people calling out others for recommending the Mobius so often but there's no denying it's a good product, I recommend it myself on occasion if I believe it's the right fit for what the customer wants, don't have an issue with people recommending anything when it's a decent product that meets what the customer needs, probably going to drag things too far off topic if I talk about it anymore here so maybe this is a better discussion for another section

 

[Dashmellow]

I see occasionally people calling out others for recommending the Mobius so often but there's no denying it's a good product, I recommend it myself on occasion if I believe it's the right fit for what the customer wants, don't have an issue with people recommending anything when it's a decent product that meets what the customer needs, probably going to drag things too far off topic if I talk about it anymore here so maybe this is a better discussion for another section

It is true that many people recommend the Mobius but they do so because it is a terrific camera of quality at a great price that people are very enthusiastic about. The fact of the matter is that you will not find a single instance of anyone being provided with free Mobius cameras by retailers in exchange for reviewing them on this forum and posting sales links with discount coupons.

 

[Dashmellow]

I can see how sending free items to review can muddy the waters, yet I think the reviews here have been honest. There is no reason not to be, what compensation is there? As you and I have discussed before. The adavantage to forum is that more cameras get into the hands of senior members who can give an honest review, work out the bugs and learn the cameras to help others decide and set them up. It also keeps the sellers honest because we check if they're real and trust me, we complain if they're not working right. If you need proof, see @Sunny 's experience with two 0806 cameras. Those 0806 major changes happened because of review and Beta cameras. A lot of behind the scenes conversations happen to make things right.

Maybe we should lay down some ground rules, if everyone feels the reviews are getting too seller biased and commercial.

How can you say possibly claim there is no compensation? When people are provided with literally hundreds of dollars worth of free merchandise in exchange for "reviews", along with the posting of sales links and discount coupons they are being compensated, period. Also, my beef with your initial post was that you were recommending a product sent to you for review that you hadn't yet taken the time to evaluate before wholeheartedly endorsing it and posting sales links with coupon codes.

 

[russ331]

I'm happy for people to post here about products they've received for 'free', in return for their review & ongoing advice to people who choose to buy the product.

I think the majority of such people more than earn their 'free' product in terms of time & effort spent preparing & editing & uploading reviews & videos, & replying to questions & queries, etc.

I can make up my own mind about how impartial they're being about the product, & how prepared they are to upset their supplier by constructively criticising it.

I'm looking forward to someone here doing a Techmoan, by taking a hammer to a freebie product that has failed to satisfy. That'll annoy the supplier!

One thing I would like to see is a permanent footnote to every post to remind us that their comments relate to a product supplied to them at no monetary cost. Signatures aren't suitable for this purpose, as they don't show up in TapaTalk.

 

[GJHS]

How can you say possibly claim there is no compensation? When people are provided with literally hundreds of dollars worth of free merchandise in exchange for "reviews", along with the posting of sales links and discount coupons they are being compensated, period. Also, my beef with your initial post (apparently my post has been removed at your request) was that you were recommending a product sent to you for review that you hadn't yet taken the time to evaluate before wholeheartedly endorsing it and posting sales links and coupon codes.

@Dashmellow I have great respect for you, and your opinion. When you started this questioning, I took no offense, now your attack on my character is getting old, friend. All your posts are there and I asked for nothing to be removed, you're entitled to post your opinion. Why you're choosing me to launch your campaign, I don't know, I hope it brings you all the success you're looking for. I think I explained my enthusiasm over the Xiaomi pack and the hours and hours of research that I did before actually receiving it.

Compensation of a stupid camera for all the work some of these reviews take is what I was referring to. I'm sure there are some that see it as compensation, maybe the first one, though I bet a lot do it because they like reviewing things and testing new cameras. Speaking for myself, the camera isn't worth the effort and as I have said, I've turned down a lot of free stuff. About the only thing GB asks me to do in a review is post a link, which I think is fair. Firstly if I test a camera, I would post the link to that exact seller and camera anyway because it's the one I know about and can speak of. I spend a long time ensuring everything is real and correct and a lot of you have received PMs from me asking for confirmation of info I have received.

I have yet to call a camera quality when it isn't and am the furthest thing from a fan boy. I can safely reccomend the Mobius because it just fits the persons need and can feel good that they will get the quality and support they need. There aren't too many cameras in the lower price range that can truly offer that. Yes there are people here who put a brand marking on their chest, defend and reccomend it, despite its clear faults and will fight you if you argue. There are also people here who post and recommend things to make a profit and some that receive free stuff that they make sound better than it is to make the seller happy. Regardless of companies sending free cameras to review, those things will happen anyway, people are people.

 

[DashCamMan]

Ideally, each camera could be purchased and reviewed like Consumer Reports and then charge members a fee. Unfortunately not sure this model would work. People want to get information for free so there have to be other business models to support this. I would guess the vast majority of review sites are receiving products from manufacturers in exchange for a review. There may be bias based on the reviewer but there are also more products that everyone can find out about.

For a typical product here which sells for approx $100, the reviewer is not making a heck of a lot of money considering the time and effort required to test the product and share his results on the site. Personally the more people who can use a product (free or paid), the more information we all have on it. Also if a product is poor, it won't be long before we hear about it on this site from owners, no matter how positive the initial reviews are.

 

[Dashmellow]

GJHS, as I've said, I took issue with the concept of your endorsing test products and posting sales links you hadn't taken the time to test and in making a statement that is was superior to or a better value than another highly similar product you have no personal experience with. If the goal is to review a product, provided for free or not, then the reviewer should refrain from endorsing it until they have done the work. Doing "hours and hours of research before actually receiving it" is not a review. When one endorses a free product they haven't actually tested and provides links and discount coupons, the endorsement lacks credibility. I am sorry if you feel such criticisms of your post is "attacking your character".

 

[GJHS]

I am sorry if you feel such criticisms of your post is "attacking your character".

Yes clearly saying "(apparently my post has been removed at your request)" wasn't personal nor attacking. It was just to talk about endorsing a free product. What was I thinking?

 

[Dashmellow]

Ideally, each camera could be purchased and reviewed like Consumer Reports and then charge members a fee. Unfortunately not sure this model would work. People want to get information for free so there have to be other business models to support this. I would guess the vast majority of review sites are receiving products from manufacturers in exchange for a review. There may be bias based on the reviewer but there are also more products that everyone can find out about.

For a typical product here which sells for approx $100, the reviewer is not making a heck of a lot of money considering the time and effort required to test the product and share his results on the site. Personally the more people who can use a product (free or paid), the more information we all have on it. Also if a product is poor, it won't be long before we hear about it on this site from owners, no matter how positive the initial reviews are.

The issue here is not whether anyone should be reviewing products for the retailers here. The issue as I've said is credibility. If a retailer is providing free products for review and the retailer requires the inclusion of sales links and coupons, there is an "implied" bias in the bargain. Obviously, any "reviewer" is free to say whatever positive or negative things they wish about a product they want to and some do, but does anyone really believe that these reviewers will keep receiving their flow of free merchandise if they say too many negative things about these products too often?

Since the practice of retailers posting sales links to their products (spamming) has been banned, what we have here when DCT members are induced to post these exact same kind of promotional sales links and coupons with their reviews is essentially, "Spam by Proxy".

I have a suggestion. A "Product review" sub-forum should be established for this purpose and that forum should reside in the Vendors section of DashCamTalk so that boundaries are more clear about the nature of these sponsored reviews.

 

[GJHS]

What am I missing or avoiding? I was overly excited about the power bank and should have waited to test it further and I shouldn't have compared it to a product I don't own. You feel, I was promoting it, maybe because I received it for free and you dont care for the paid promotion that you feel is happening too much. You and I have spoken about this privately, so why you chose my one error to launch your campaign is beyond me. Either way I appreciate when someone constructively makes me think and I'm no one to think I'm perfect. When you start accusing my intentions and actions, then I have an issue.

 

[Dashmellow]

What am I missing or avoiding? I was overly excited about the power bank and should have waited to test it further and I shouldn't have compared it to a product I don't own. You feel, I was promoting it, maybe because I received it for free and you dont care for the paid promotion that you feel is happening too much. You and I have spoken about this privately, so why you chose my one error to launch your campaign is beyond me. Either way I appreciate when someone constructively makes me think and I'm no one to think I'm perfect. When you start accusing my intentions and actions, then I have an issue.

Well, since you've edited out the parts of your initial post I took issue with I can no longer refer to them but now that you bring it up and I think back on it, I guess part of what troubled me was the very fact that your post was in such stark contrast with the sentiments you expressed on this subject in private.

Anyway, I really don't wish to get into a further pissing match here, it would only be counterproductive. How about we move on? You know, there's an old adage around internet forums that goes, "Attack the post, not the poster". That was what I was initially trying to do and I apologize if you feel or if in fact, I have done otherwise.

 

[DashCamMan]

Two of my keys posts about this matter did in fact disappear from this thread. Since those posts were honest, respectful and diplomatic I was rather surprised that they should disappear like that. Perhaps they disappeared for a different reason? Either way, you seem to keep missing or avoiding my points here.

I don't believe any of your posts have been deleted on this thread. The number of posts deleted on this forum is very minimal (obvious spam and offensive posts only).

 

[Dashmellow]

I don't believe any of your posts have been deleted on this thread. The number of posts deleted on this forum is very minimal (obvious spam and offensive posts only).

For some reason when I looked I thought they were missing but I see I was in error. Thanks for pointing it out and further apologies to GJHS on that score.

 

[GJHS]

The issue here is not whether anyone should be reviewing products for the retailers here. The issue as I've said is credibility. If a retailer is providing free products for review and the retailer requires the inclusion of sales links and coupons, there is an "implied" bias in the bargain. Obviously, any "reviewer" is free to say whatever positive or negative things they wish about a product they want to and some do, but does anyone really believe that these reviewers will keep receiving their flow of free merchandise if they say too many negative things about these products too often?

Since the practice of retailers posting sales links to their products (spamming) has been banned, what we have here when DCT members are induced to post these exact same kind of promotional sales links and coupons with their reviews is essentially, "Spam by Proxy".

I have a suggestion. A "Product review" sub-forum should be established for this purpose and that forum should reside in the Vendors section of DashCamTalk so that boundaries are more clear about the nature of these sponsored reviews.

Enough "sub-forums", the "What Should I Buy" should be erased and replaced with sort of a wizard that would suggest a group of cameras based on needs. Better or in addition, the DCT dash comparison page review as a sticky post at the top of every cameras sub forum, listing pros and cons taken from users experience and user reviews. This way the sticky is the first thing users see and is unbiased. Of course this info would have to be better updated. Reviews after that couldn't greatly contrast the main review and any new info, could be used to update it. A list of reputable sellers could also be included so no bias is included.

Also maybe the creation of a disclaimer line as the first post on all sponsored reviews, ensuring readers know that it's a paid review and may contain bias. Though honestly in my experience reviews here have been honest and if not, users post about it.

I would also suggest that @DashCamMan opens a private conversation with the senior members to discuss ways to improve things before angry threads ensue.

 

[GJHS]

For some reason when I looked I thought they were missing but I see I was in error. Thanks for pointing it out and further apologies to GJHS on that score.

@Dashmellow, you're a strong mind and a great asset here, don't worry and thanks for keeping me in line.