USB Cable for SSD – Longer Lengths?

[TonyM]

Remember that a dashcam is not simply writing successive files to the card. It is writing three simultaneous files. It also has to manage disk space and delete the oldest files as required to maintain the loop recording process

 

[speedingcheetah]

Remember that a dashcam is not simply writing successive files to the card. It is writing three simultaneous files. It also has to manage disk space and delete the oldest files as required to maintain the loop recording process

Right. But still being restricted to maximum 40 MB/S seems to be a bit ridiculous nowadays. But maybe there’s a technological reason for it. I’m just reporting my findings. I would love if someone could explain why it’s capped at USB 2.0 speeds then and why they’re recommending such an extreme fast SSD.

 

[EricSan]

I'm wondering if the recommendations are made according to specific published specs, or if the recommendations are the result of specific hands-on use with that exact drive...

 

[SC@AU]

I would presume the latter…If it was just based on spec, I’d presume the list of potential drives would have been much larger….

One thing to note in common on the SSD’s that are recommended is that they are all ‘ruggedised’ designs featuring extended resistance re impact, waterproofing, thermal etc – arguably useful aspects for use within the environment of a car….As I said elsewhere, surprised that LaCie’s Rugged SSD range isn’t listed, though I can see no reason why they wouldn’t be suitable….

Still wondering why the Samsung T7 4TB has disappeared from the recommended list on the global website, as spotted by @Chuck McCoy …..

 

[speedingcheetah]

I would presume the latter…If it was just based on spec, I’d presume the list of potential drives would have been much larger….

One thing to note in common on the SSD’s that are recommended is that they are all ‘ruggedised’ designs featuring extended resistance re impact, waterproofing, thermal etc – arguably useful aspects for use within the environment of a car….As I said elsewhere, surprised that LaCie’s Rugged SSD range isn’t listed, though I can see no reason why they wouldn’t be suitable….

Still wondering why the Samsung T7 4TB has disappeared from the recommended list on the global website, as spotted by @Chuck McCoy …..

Ruggedized? Right, like you are taking it camping or kicking out in the bush with it.
I reality, it gets stashed into a nook or glove box and never touched unless u need to remove it to access footage out side the car.
Normal non ruggedized external ssds all have heat management and impact water resistance etc.
Infact, many units that are wrapped in thick rubber case, or a thicker shell would get hotter internally than their not ruggedized versions.

And in this case, load on the drive is around 10% (for a 3.0 standard ssd) and maybe 5% (for a very fast drive like a nvme or the ones VIOFO recommends).
The drives heat up the most when they are being written to at max speed. Though, the high ambient heat of a cars interior, even stashed away under seat or glove box, out of the direct sun, can still affect the drive performance and life.

I managed this evening to wire through my dash that 1.8M VIOFO cable, but even with the "shortcut" i found trough a side panel next to my glove box in my dash, i am about 1 foot or so short of what i need. So, looks like i am ordering the 2.5M cable. I want the ssd as center in the car as possible, so far left side of the glove box. I can only hope, that, should i get t-boned on the passenger side, that the routed usb cable through the rubber window seal on the A pillar, is not damaged or crushed and disconnects the ssd, corrupting the data.

 

[lufa6977]

In the past, some enclosures were known to be problematic. I think @Augustus figured out something on that, but I don't recall the details exactly.

Cache could be a significant factor here. It is known that some memory boards do not flush the cache during a continuous, long write. So, if you copy 50 megabytes, then maybe there's no problem. However, if you copy 600 megabytes, the process will fill the primary cache, not flush it, and fall back, reducing its write speeds.

 

[TonyM]

I can only hope, that, should i get t-boned on the passenger side, that the routed usb cable through the rubber window seal on the A pillar, is not damaged or crushed and disconnects the ssd, corrupting the data.

That's an interesting point. If the A329S loses power in a collision it will save the current video files, then shut down.
- If using a microSD card this should work OK, providing the card is not ejected from the camera.
- If using an SSD this should also work OK, providing the SSD and/or cable do not become disconnected from the main unit.

If the collision causes the SSD and/or cable to become disconnected from the A329S, what happens to the video files being recorded at the time of impact? Can they be recovered? If you plug it back in afterwards, can the dashcam close and save those last files?

Has anyone tested this by disconnecting the SSD whilst the A329S is recording?

 

[Augustus]

In the past, some enclosures were known to be problematic. I think @Augustus figured out something on that, but I don't recall the details exactly.

Cache could be a significant factor here. It is known that some memory boards do not flush the cache during a continuous, long write. So, if you copy 50 megabytes, then maybe there's no problem. However, if you copy 600 megabytes, the process will fill the primary cache, not flush it, and fall back, reducing its write speeds.

I didn't have an enclosure but used a Kingston SSD. Which worked but then kept cutting out at times. There was a whole back and forth here on DCT raising questions about compatibility, but even after a new cable from Viofo and a firmware update it still wasn't resolved.

Plus the baffling decision to make their cables usb 2.0 and not 3.0...no one ever got a real answer from Viofo, or novatek, as to whose fault it was to limit compatibility to only a select few models.

As for the enclosures themselves, there were numerous reports of them not working so in the end, Viofo quietly pulled that part from their advertising for the A329.

The whole experience left such a sour taste in my mouth, I didn't even bothering texting it on the newer A329x series, and sold the Kingston SSD

 

[Mtz]

being restricted to maximum 40 MB/S seems to be a bit ridiculous nowadays.

For dashcam usage this is more than enough. 3 videos from Viofo can be maybe totally up to
Lets suppose front video is
60 Mbps = 7.5 MB/s
Rear is
40 Mbps = 5 MB/s
Interior is
40 Mbps = 5 MB/s

We have a total of 17.5 MB/s. So small compared to the 40MB/s.

 

[speedingcheetah]

For dashcam usage this is more than enough. 3 videos from Viofo can be maybe totally up to
Lets suppose front video is
60 Mbps = 7.5 MB/s
Rear is
40 Mbps = 5 MB/s
Interior is
40 Mbps = 5 MB/s

We have a total of 17.5 MB/s. So small compared to the 40MB/s.

Not the point though. That is all find and dandy.
But, again, it is being advertised a USB 3.0.
Worse, the "recommended" ssd drives are far more extravagant than what is needed.
Deceptive to the customer and cost the customer way more money than is needed.

 

[SC@AU]

So back to longer cables….

Does anyone know the typical power draw of say the Sandisk Extreme 2TB or the Samsung T7 2/4TB – I’ve looked around and can’t seem to see anything specific, apart from ‘within USB power specs’ ….

If the port on the A329S is USB 3.0 (despite using USB-C connector), then in theory it’s max power output will be 900mA…There’s also the fact that the Viofo USB-C cable (for SSD use) seems to be a USB 2.0 cable, which would bring that available power transmission down to max 500mA….

I’m just wondering out loud if there is even scope for use of an Active USB cable extension, which being bus-powered will have its own power requirements in-line….Again, I can’t seem to find much info on what this power draw typically would be…Have looked at options on the likes of Lindy etc, but no figures given for the power usage on any of the active extensions…

If the A329S is able to supply up to 900mA, then perhaps there may be enough power capacity to add in an active cable extension whilst also bus-powering the SSD….But if a passive USB 2.0 cable is used in the chain (i.e Viofo’s 1.8/2.5m) then 500mA may be the max available, which may be cutting things tight…?

 

[speedingcheetah]

So back to longer cables….

Does anyone know the typical power draw of say the Sandisk Extreme 2TB or the Samsung T7 2/4TB – I’ve looked around and can’t seem to see anything specific, apart from ‘within USB power specs’ ….

If the port on the A329S is USB 3.0 (despite using USB-C connector), then in theory it’s max power output will be 900mA…There’s also the fact that the Viofo USB-C cable (for SSD use) seems to be a USB 2.0 cable, which would bring that available power transmission down to max 500mA….

I’m just wondering out loud if there is even scope for use of an Active USB cable extension, which being bus-powered will have its own power requirements in-line….Again, I can’t seem to find much info on what this power draw typically would be…Have looked at options on the likes of Lindy etc, but no figures given for the power usage on any of the active extensions…

If the A329S is able to supply up to 900mA, then perhaps there may be enough power capacity to add in an active cable extension whilst also bus-powering the SSD….But if a passive USB 2.0 cable is used in the chain (i.e Viofo’s 1.8/2.5m) then 500mA may be the max available, which may be cutting things tight…?

I neglected to mention, though did not do so as a proper test kinda thing.

I tried a few passive usb extension cables, both usb 2.0 and 3.0 to extend the length the data cable while in home when i was messing with other short cables . After about 15ft worth, the ssd was either not recognized at camera boot, or if it was, it started to record, and the camera soon crashed/hard shutdown.

I did try connecting while in car, the ssd at the end of my 16ft Active usb 2.0 extension cable that i run to the back of my car, for the rear camera. Had to use a C to A adapter at the camera.
This simply resulted in the camera not detecting the ssd at all. Not sure if it is this specific cable, or some other factor.

I would be interested to see if anyone does any further tests using active cables. There are Active USB 3.0 cables, but they get kinda pricy, and their also is optical based active cables for very long lengths.

 

[SC@AU]

I would be interested to see if anyone does any further tests using active cables. There are Active USB 3.0 cables, but they get kinda pricy, and their also is optical based active cables for very long lengths.

Yes, was thinking the same...As you say, they're not particularly cheap – a 5m active 3.1 extension I was looking at on Lindy (who tend to make decent accessories) was AU$95...I'd consider paying it, if I knew it was going to work..! There are also direct active cables, which would be a neater solution, though I can't seem to find many that have 90º connectors at at least one end, which I feel is better at the camera end....

Yes, optical is another option – though wouldn't carry power for the SSD.
There's USB over Ethernet also, which actually would be a decent solution in a car environment re EMI resistance etc, but involves transmitter and receiver modules and is all starting to get a bit 'messy'....and if the A329 is as finicky re SSD usage as reports suggest, then who knows if any of these solutions and inherent additional hardware is going to cause issues...? In theory, they shouldn't, if done correctly and with quality equipment but if the A329 was even unhappy with various SSD Enclosure solutions, then it doesn't fill me with optimism....

 

[SC@AU]

I did try connecting while in car, the ssd at the end of my 16ft Active usb 2.0 extension cable that i run to the back of my car, for the rear camera. Had to use a C to A adapter at the camera.
This simply resulted in the camera not detecting the ssd at all. Not sure if it is this specific cable, or some other factor.

That cable is certainly a USB 2.0 spec – so up to 480mbps and 500mA...I suspect, as I was musing in my post just earlier, that the 500mA might be hitting the ceiling of being able to power the SSD as well as supporting the in-line active cable's own power draw....Your rear camera may just be within limit whereas the SSD is pushing things too far...

As the spec on the Amazon page states:

Up to three cables can be connected in series, but devices with high power consumption may require a powered USB hub between the cable and the device. Not recommended for webcams or video cameras at high resolution. Does not work for charging batteries on devices such as iPhones, iPads, tablets, etc. ​

 

[speedingcheetah]

Yes, was thinking the same...As you say, they're not particularly cheap – a 5m active 3.1 extension I was looking at on Lindy (who tend to make decent accessories) was AU$95...I'd consider paying it, if I knew it was going to work..! There are also direct active cables, which would be a neater solution, though I can't seem to find many that have 90º connectors at at least one end, which I feel is better at the camera end....

Yes, optical is another option – though wouldn't carry power for the SSD.
There's USB over Ethernet also, which actually would be a decent solution in a car environment re EMI resistance etc, but involves transmitter and receiver modules and is all starting to get a bit 'messy'....and if the A329 is as finicky re SSD usage as reports suggest, then who knows if any of these solutions and inherent additional hardware is going to cause issues...? In theory, they shouldn't, if done correctly and with quality equipment but if the A329 was even unhappy with various SSD Enclosure solutions, then it doesn't fill me with optimism....

Latency of some sort, i would think may come into play. Or the camera just not understanding slightly different signals or something.
The time it has once power is cut, to finish writing data, may be in the realm of ms(milliseconds) perhaps, and adding into things the added complexity of active cable, a just longer length and ms more for the data to make it to drive...no idea really how that would all work.

And, even if you manage to get it working initially, i have read reports on here, that things work fine, until they don't. The ssd/memory card fills to a certain point, then issues arise.
Things may behave different based on temperature, a very hot day, vs a very cold one.
Only thing i can guess with any certainty, is that such a setup would not be something to be considered reliable / critical to have working 100% of the time.
If you just drive for fun and it not bother if things may stop working mid-drive at anytime, then, have fun testing i guess.
But if you need and want to have things working with most confidence it will work, best option is to stick to "recommended" setups.

 

[speedingcheetah]

That cable is certainly a USB 2.0 spec – so up to 480mbps and 500mA...I suspect, as I was musing in my post just earlier, that the 500mA might be hitting the ceiling of being able to power the SSD as well as supporting the in-line active cable's own power draw....Your rear camera may just be within limit whereas the SSD is pushing things too far...

As the spec on the Amazon page states:

Up to three cables can be connected in series, but devices with high power consumption may require a powered USB hub between the cable and the device. Not recommended for webcams or video cameras at high resolution. Does not work for charging batteries on devices such as iPhones, iPads, tablets, etc. ​

I am not certain as to the A110 Mini 2's power draw (but i bet @Chuck McCoy has posts on all that) . I have that active cable connected to a built 5v/2.4A usb port on a 3 way cig splitter thing i use that powers all my things in car.
At the end of the Active cable, is a normal usb cable, is a random A to C cable, maybe 3 to 6 feet. i do not recall, that goes up from my cargo area, to the actual camera, the cable being stuffed in my trim.

 

[LateralNW]

A simple test I did on the A329 original release I found this.
Supplying constant voltage was difficult from my mock up switch mode power unit so it may skew the results.

The A329 drew 1.1Amp @ 5 Volts The supply I am using doesn't' support constant current/voltage.
The USB side port had trouble supplying 5 volts and tended to drop to 4.7 even 4.6V
If the supply voltage was lower than the 5 Volts it will reflect directly on how the output usb supplies power.

Using a NVMe m.2 device it drawed 260mA but every 3 seconds approx it would rise to 390mA
When I connected Hard drive (yes a HD) if would draw closer to 400mA

If the voltage dropped to low approx 4.6Volts it seems to shut down the port then re start it. this would cycle as it seemed to try to get a stable connection.

The power to the dashcam was supplied via the A329 gps mount.

This is just a simple observation / test. Others may find different results.

 

[SC@AU]

The A329 drew 1.1Amp @ 5 Volts

Presumably this must increase when the camera is also using it's side USB port to power a connected SSD...That SSD port would have to be able to offer up to 500mA minimum (900mA if it meets USB 3.0 spec)...Doesn't leave much for the actual camera/display....2CH and 3CH would be more again, considering the remote cameras are powered over the co-ax cables...

 

[Mtz]

But, again, it is being advertised a USB 3.0.

Where did you read that the Viofo SSD cable is USB 3.0?

 

[SC@AU]

Where did you read that the Viofo SSD cable is USB 3.0?

Seems to be clearly stamped on the sheath @ Viofo's website images –
It also seems to marry up with many of the reported transfer speeds that have been tested i.e under USB 2.0 spec...



EDIT: Apologies, I misread your post, I thought you were questioning where it was noted the cable was USB 2.0...