Ultimate Dash Cam Battery Pack Comparison

Chuck McCoy said:
In like 8 better than 16.
That's 8 less parts to fail. lol
Is that fair?
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If one out of 16 fails, you only lose a quarter of your capacity instead of half for an 8 pack, so you could say that 16 is better.

But, yes, I would normally chose to go with the 8, less to go wrong, unless I wanted a thin battery pack, which I think is probably the only reason why 16 is chosen.

It is possible that the smaller cells work out cheaper, or the larger cells were not available when the packs were designed, I guess LiFePO4 cells were fairly new when some of these packs were originally designed, maybe that is the reason?
 
jsmith said:
It depends on driving habits. If you are working 8 hour job, 1 camera can easily run off a battery pack in parking mode at 80% charge without issue. Having a Battery Save and Long Term Parking Setting (100 Percent Charge) for when a car is parked long term would be useful. You forget, we are hobbyists but many average consumers don't want to spend X amount every 2 years on a battery pack. Sure, you are talking a car accident is very expensive relative to the cost of a Camera + Battery pack, but your average consumer often doesn't have that same process. Consumers look for value and longevity. Constantly charging to 100% and discharging is rough on lipo battteries.

Heat is an electronics killer. Seattle Washington is not a Desert climate or a Hot Humid environment. So yes, the lipo batteries inside your pack aren't running nearly as hot, which helps prolong shelf life, too. Heat can cause batteries to expand and fail, too.

I hardwire my cameras and I am more than willing to replace my car battery a year or so early from the loss attributed to running a parasitic drain (dashcam). As a dashcam enthusiast, its a small price to pay. See above though. We've got to think like consumers.
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The 80% thing isn’t a big deal with LiFePo4. It’s true that extreme temperatures can be tougher on batteries in general, but that too has nothing to do with 80% charging. Here’s a video of a guy going over this in way more detail. As a bonus, he shows the heat related degradation of a LiFePo4 battery that’s sitting in the Las Vegas sun all day long and the degradation isn’t that bad.


For long term storage, the battery will self discharge slowly from 100%. There can sometimes be issues with long term storage with really empty batteries if your car is in long term parking, but again this has nothing to do with the 80% thing either.
 
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There are two schools of thought on the 80% charge level. Ultimately, what drives this is the outside temperature. There are good and valid arguments for 100% and 80% charging levels, but the environmental temperature where the pack is located is what determines what the user may want to do. Also, remember that the BMS should limit the charging and discharging of the pack based on the detected cell temperature.

Another aspect of testing these auxiliary battery packs is understanding just how the BMS regulates charging and discharging. Does the BMS allow for a 100% charge, or does it only reach 90% but display 100% on the BMS screen? Additionally, not knowing if the cells were tested for IR ( Internal Resistance ) and each cell in the pack has a near equal IR makes determining the charging, discharging, and longevity of the pack a little tricky.

To better understand the nuances of these batteries, charging, BMS, and other related topics, visit one of the DIY Solar websites. There is a wealth of information there.
 
Nigel said:
If one out of 16 fails, you only lose a quarter of your capacity instead of half for an 8 pack, so you could say that 16 is better.
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I don't think that's how it works.
If any single cell turds out, the entire pack is e-waste.
@GPak can you confirm?
If I remember that's what happen to the pack @SafeDriveSolutions disassembled.
 
Chuck McCoy said:
I don't think that's how it works.
If any single cell turds out, the entire pack is e-waste.
@GPak can you confirm?
If I remember that's what happen to the pack @SafeDriveSolutions disassembled.
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Generally, yes, you are correct. A bad cell will usually kill or seriously degrade the pack. What determines that is whether the pack is wired in Series, Parallel, or Series-Parallel, and if the cell failure is an open or short circuit. Multiple factors, but for the most part, the pack is crap once it loses a cell.

A similar analogy would be a 12-volt lead acid battery with one dead cell. You will likely still read 12 volts across the terminals, but the capacity is in the gutter and the car likely will not start.
 
Chuck McCoy said:
I don't think that's how it works.
If any single cell turds out, the entire pack is e-waste.
@GPak can you confirm?
If I remember that's what happen to the pack @SafeDriveSolutions disassembled.
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Correct, 4 or 16 cells doesn't matter, if one cell fails, the BMS will shut down the entire battery.
This is because the BMS protects the battery both at the individual cell level (in a 16-cell battery, 4 cells in a parallel block are considered as one cell) and at the entire battery level.
So, if one cell fails, multiple shutdown protocols on both the cell level and pack level are triggered.

The 4-cell battery is more reliable due to fewer cells to fail and simpler assembly.
It is also smaller in volume (not to be confused with height).

Nigel is right that larger batteries were not available in the early days of battery technology.
Tesla started with 18650 cells, then moved to 21700 cells, and the latest cells are 46800.
*(first two numbers are diameter of the cell, last three the length)
 
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Vortex Radar said:
The 80% thing isn’t a big deal with LiFePo4. It’s true that extreme temperatures can be tougher on batteries in general, but that too has nothing to do with 80% charging. Here’s a video of a guy going over this in way more detail. As a bonus, he shows the heat related degradation of a LiFePo4 battery that’s sitting in the Las Vegas sun all day long and the degradation isn’t that bad.


For long term storage, the battery will self discharge slowly from 100%. There can sometimes be issues with long term storage with really empty batteries if your car is in long term parking, but again this has nothing to do with the 80% thing either.
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The 80% and Heat are two issues but unrelated of course. Past issues would be running a battery down from 100% ---> near empty causes more cycling and wear on the cells. That's why cell phones and some devices limited to 80% to prevent unnecessary wear and prolong the the life of each cell.

Whether or not LifePo4 can be run down from 100--> 0 or near zero without issue is the question. You spoke about wanting 100% to let your car run as long as possible. That's why I brought up the full charge to full discharge issue.

Heat... Ya look at all the dashcam manufacturers that use LiPo instead of Supercapacitors. Those things expand in the heat and fail over time. Of course, the battery pack isn't baking in the windshield but is still subjected to heat in say a Hot Climate.
 
jsmith said:
The 80% and Heat are two issues but unrelated of course. Past issues would be running a battery down from 100% ---> near empty causes more cycling and wear on the cells. That's why cell phones and some devices limited to 80% to prevent unnecessary wear and prolong the the life of each cell.

Whether or not LifePo4 can be run down from 100--> 0 or near zero without issue is the question. You spoke about wanting 100% to let your car run as long as possible. That's why I brought up the full charge to full discharge issue.

Heat... Ya look at all the dashcam manufacturers that use LiPo instead of Supercapacitors. Those things expand in the heat and fail over time. Of course, the battery pack isn't baking in the windshield but is still subjected to heat in say a Hot Climate.
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Dashcam manufacturers use Li-Ion batteries inside their dashcams, not LiFePo4. Those batteries have pretty different characteristics. Perhaps this is part of the confusion?
 
Vortex Radar said:
Dashcam manufacturers use Li-Ion batteries inside their dashcams, not LiFePo4. Those batteries have pretty different characteristics. Perhaps this is part of the confusion?
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I looked wrong at @SafeDriveSolutions picture thought those were lithium ion vs lipo4.

My brain isn't working today and I confused myself.... Sorry.

Cell phones and dashcams use lithium ion. You're right these are less durable and more prone to fire risk, heat, and loss of cells from 100 --> 0 charging.

LifePo4 are more durable, but still are not impervious to heat and discharging from 100 --> 0 and being left at a low charge for prolonged periods.
 
Vortex Radar said:
The 80% thing isn’t a big deal with LiFePo4.
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The 80% thing isn't a deal at all for LiFePO4, there really is zero 80% factor, instead you actually need to spend some time at 100%.

The reason for 80% being an issue for LiPo and Li Ion is that that is the point where the voltage reaches the level where aging starts to increase significantly, but LiFePO4 has a much flatter voltage curve and doesn't reach higher voltage until 99.5%. Also, as Will Prowse points out in the video you linked, you need to balance the cells occasionally, and that is not possible with LiFePO4 until you reach high voltage, so for LiFePO4 you need to reach 100% and stay there for long enough to balance the cells (maybe 24 hours per year), while for LiPo the cells can balance at lower voltages and you don't need to worry about balancing.

Vortex Radar said:
Dashcam manufacturers use Li-Ion batteries inside their dashcams, not LiFePo4.
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70mai uses Li-Ion, most manufacturers use LiPo for dashcams. It is the LiPo that swell up and burst the case open, Li-Ion is pretty safe and lasts longer, although there is still a market for replacement 70mai batteries. It is very unusual to have a cell problem in a LiFePO4 battery and a fire is almost impossible.
 
Do Viofo design and manufacture the BP-100 themselves, or is any of that outsourced? Others such as BBMC and IROAD have been making dashcam batteries for a while, so have hopefully learned from their early models. Have Viofo hit the ground running with their first battery?
 
TonyM said:
Do Viofo design and manufacture the BP-100 themselves, or is any of that outsourced? Others such as BBMC and IROAD have been making dashcam batteries for a while, so have hopefully learned from their early models. Have Viofo hit the ground running with their first battery?
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Based on the charging videos, the Viofo is clearly a different design to the others, it has a very constant wattage charge, while the watts on the iVolt Extra and Powercell 8 increase as the charge progresses, which means that they are starting off slow and you get the fast charge towards the end, which is the opposite of what I want, I want them to charge extra fast on short journeys and I don't mind how fast they charge later, on on long journeys! The Viofo starts off at full charge speed, apart from a short ramp up, which is definitely better for those people with a short commute.

I'm sure they have had some help from battery experts, it would make sense to buy an existing battery management chipset, but they have also taken a lot of time on the testing, so presumably they are being a little cautious rather than racing into it, after all, things can go wrong with lithium batteries if you don't take the necessary precautions.


Edit: At the start of the 2nd second of timelapse video, the Viofo is charging at 120.4 watts, while the Powercell 8 is only at 103.3. The dashcams need watts for recording, the Viofo is putting them into the battery 16.5% faster early in the charge even though they take the same total charge time, that is quite significant for a short drive.
 
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TonyM said:
Do Viofo design and manufacture the BP-100 themselves, or is any of that outsourced? Others such as BBMC and IROAD have been making dashcam batteries for a while, so have hopefully learned from their early models. Have Viofo hit the ground running with their first battery?
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I do not have the answers on @viofo battery pack. If they wish to answer that is fine.

Let’s be clear not to take anything away from either company. BBMC orders a battery pack from Egen and puts their name on it. They probably have to order 1000 units or more plus market the battery pack. I do not think they have their own manufacturing facility.

IROAD does not have their own manufacturing facility for battery packs. But I do believe IROAD has some hand in design.
 
SafeDriveSolutions said:
I do not have the answers on @viofo battery pack. If they wish to answer that is fine.

Let’s be clear not to take anything away from either company. BBMC orders a battery pack from Egen and puts their name on it. They probably have to order 1000 units or more plus market the battery pack. I do not think they have their own manufacturing facility.

IROAD does not have their own manufacturing facility for battery packs. But I do believe IROAD has some hand in design.
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Good points - thanks for the reply. I was not aware of who manufactures or markets these batteries.

I like Viofo dashcams, but a battery pack is a new venture, whether they manufacture it or rebrand it. I hope it works well for them, both in terms of performance and reliability.
 
SafeDriveSolutions said:
I do not have the answers on @viofo battery pack. If they wish to answer that is fine.

Let’s be clear not to take anything away from either company. BBMC orders a battery pack from Egen and puts their name on it. They probably have to order 1000 units or more plus market the battery pack. I do not think they have their own manufacturing facility.

IROAD does not have their own manufacturing facility for battery packs. But I do believe IROAD has some hand in design.
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So is Egen / Cellink simply rebranding their own battery and slapping BBMC name on it? I can't imagine they'd undercut themselves, and there has to be some sort of changes to design / materials beyond casing alone.
 
Even Anker don't make their own battery cells, they just replaced the supplier that caused their recent massive powerbank recalls!
Then it is perfectly normal to get your cases manufactured by a plastic moulding company, your PCBs assembled by a PCB manufacturer, so you are left with assembly, which you may or may not do yourself. Apple don't assemble iPhones themselves.

When a company puts their brand name on a product, they are taking responsibility, and people will expect the same quality and reliability as the rest of that brand's products. Doesn't really matter how that product got manufactured/assembled, as long as the quality/values expected by the brand's customers were ensured.
 
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