low cost dash cams with H.265?

[Dashmellow]

You see THAT is the point you most eloquently chose to ignore.

A huge amount of work is going on around the world as criminal justice professionals (police, judges, lawyers etc) wake up to the fact that “evidence” comes in many many different formats. And just like an insurance clerk may not have the skills/tools to deal with a certain file type, an iPhone user may not have the skills/tools to export a file in anything but default whatever that may be.

When some terrorist wanders into a high school and starts shooting school kids, the people dealing with the follow on investigation can’t ask people to check their dash cams/mobile phones/cctv etc in case they captured something that may be of help but then say “but we can only accept photos in bitmap format”.

So it’s taken some time but across Europe and North America this is being addressed which means TODAY a member of the public can provide “evidence” in whatever format works for them. This evidence is then used to form a picture of what happened in what may be a complex investigation that may have video footage, witness statements and so on.

I am not denying that at some point in the past (I’m guessing prior to 2013 when you joined this forum) you had an issue with your local hill billy police department which is different to what I am describing here but that doesn’t make what I am saying here wrong. Here in 2019 the world is very different. As I said, this is part of what I do for a living so have a very good view of the system as a whole from the inside in many countries not as a victim on the outside as you found yourself. As I said, the US actually leads the western world with a lot of this technology thus the huge take up of these “evidence cloud” platforms. In Europe for example, there is a lot more resistance to cloud in criminal justice mainly because most of the platforms are run by US companies.

So to my original point

If somebody chooses to buy a camera (regardless of if there is any benefit) that shoots in H265, they do not need to concern themselves that the footage won’t be usable if there is an accident and the whole thing ends up in court. As long as the file is in a current and supported format they will be perfectly fine.

You apparently have a habit of repeatedly speaking in provocative, insulting terms such as "your local hill billy police department" even though you have no clue what you are talking about. Nor do you know the situation I described or it's circumstances or duration and which is unrelated to when I happened to have joined this forum. It is always unfortunate when we have an arrogant and condescending character like wash up on these shores and who then immediately engages in such calumny. This is what always leads to blowing up a thread like this one just to stroke your own ego. I predict you won't last long here.

And you are also a self congratulatory c0ckalorum and elitist, speaking of "evidence clouds" and terrorism, mass shootings and high end policing or intelligence technologies. These things are entirely unrelated to the practical everyday world most dash cam users live in. Dash cam users are more concerned about dealing with their local insurance agency or attorney's office or the AV capabilities available at their local court house regardless of what sized municipality they may reside in.

Stop trying to impress everyone and stop wasting all of our time. In fact, what are you doing back here? I thought you said your "work is done".

 

[Nigel]

The decision was that they should have standard definition cameras (480p). This may seem mad at first but such a camera is there to support an officer in the event somebody claims he shot somebody illegally.

What bitrate / sample rate is used for the audio?

 

[M A R K]

You apparently have a habit of repeatedly speaking in provocative, insulting terms such as "your local hill billy police department" even though you have no clue what you are talking about. Nor do you know the situation I described or it's circumstances or duration and which is unrelated to when I happened to have joined this forum. It is always unfortunate when we have an arrogant and condescending character like wash up on these shores and who then immediately engages in such calumny. This is what always leads to blowing up a thread like this one just to stroke your own ego. I predict you won't last long here.

And you are also a self congratulatory ****alorum and elitist, speaking of "evidence clouds" and terrorism and mass shootings or high end policing or intelligence technologies. These things are entirely unrelated to the practical everyday world most dash cam users live in. Dash cam users are more concerned about dealing with their local insurance agency or attorney's office or the AV capabilites availabe at their local court house regardless of what sized municipality they may reside in.

Stop trying to impress everyone and stop wasting all of our time. In fact, what are you doing back here? I thought you said your 'work is done".

Have you really resorted to insult throwing?

I said I accept what you claim happened but the point is that things have moved on in the last six years because the system has woken up to reality. What you experienced back whenever should not have been the case but a huge amount of effort (and money) is being spent to try and fix that.

I can’t comment on what happened to you and indeed it is none of my business. By the sound of things you were dealt a bum hand (if that’s the right phrase) meaning you personally had to compensate for inadequacies in the system. Shouldn’t of happened but it did.

But you are right these things are irrelevant to dash cam owners but I don’t apologise for using examples to give context as to why some aspects are relevant.

And it is relevant that somebody buying a dashcam in 2019 really doesn’t have to concern themselves about file formats in the way YOU had to several years ago.

I’m sorry you felt the need to resort to insults rather than accept the world has moved on.

 

[jokiin]

at the risk of dragging this thread back on topic, even if file handling isn't any sort of consideration current H.265 enabled cameras don't actually deliver any of the benefits that the format offers, there are currently better options that use H.264

 

[M A R K]

What bitrate / sample rate is used for the audio?

It depends on the camera model but depending on if the unit had stereo mics or not (most didn’t) then the specs tended to quote “CD quality” so 16bit and 44khz or half that for mono. If you think about how these cameras are worn (I’m guessing you have seen them on the TV or on the street) because of the amount of kit a typical police officer carries, the amount of rustling from kit rubbing against the body of the camera was often a problem. Plus the microphone was not always great. Certainly fine to record a conversation one on one between an officer and somebody he is speaking with but in the street getting a recording of the “scene” was often hit or miss which I guess is where your question is coming from

 

[Dashmellow]

Have you really resorted to insult throwing?

I said I accept what you claim happened but the point is that things have moved on in the last six years because the system has woken up to reality. What you experienced back whenever should not have been the case but a huge amount of effort (and money) is being spent to try and fix that.

I can’t comment on what happened to you and indeed it is none of my business. By the sound of things you were dealt a bum hand (if that’s the right phrase) meaning you personally had to compensate for inadequacies in the system. Shouldn’t of happened but it did.

But you are right these things are irrelevant to dash cam owners but I don’t apologise for using examples to give context as to why some aspects are relevant.

And it is relevant that somebody buying a dashcam in 2019 really doesn’t have to concern themselves about file formats in the way YOU had to several years ago.

I’m sorry you felt the need to resort to insults rather than accept the world has moved on.

Unfortunately, the world hasn't moved on technologically quite as fast or as much as you seem to think it has or want to believe it has, especially outside the world of law enforcement. Despite how often I keep mentioning the widely varying capabilities and skill levels found at different national, regional or local law offices or national, regional or local insurance companies and their agencies you are apparently willfully ignoring these key entities as conduits for dash cam video submission.

 

[M A R K]

Unfortunately, the world hasn't moved on technologically quite as fast or as much as you seem to think it has or want to believe it has, especially outside the world of law enforcement. Despite how often I keep mentioning the widely varying capabilities and skill levels found at different national, regional or local law offices or national, regional or local insurance companies and their agencies you are apparently willfully ignoring these key entities as conduits for dash cam video submission.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that point I’m afraid.

 

[Dashmellow]

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that point I’m afraid.

Yeah, there's a real world out here with average dash cam users trying to submit insurance claims or work with their local law offices, utterly disconnected from elite law enforcement "evidence clouds" with random folks submitting smartphone videos of terrorist attacks or mass shootings.

 

[M A R K]

Yeah, there's a real world out here with average dash cam users trying to submit insurance claims or work with their local law offices, utterly disconnected from elite law enforcement "evidence clouds" with random folks submitting smartphone videos of terrorist attacks or mass shootings.

Are you deliberately missing the point or do you simply not want to get the point?
The world you describe appears to only appear in tiny back waters (sorry if using the word hill billy earlier offended you) spread few and far between. Indeed I am not even sure if in 2019 it genuinely exists at all.

 

[Dashmellow]

Are you deliberately missing the point or do you simply not want to get the point?
The world you describe appears to only appear in tiny back waters (sorry if using the word hill billy earlier offended you) spread few and far between. Indeed I am not even sure if in 2019 it genuinely exists at all.

Tiny backwaters? Oh, that's not as insulting as "hillbilly" is it? You really are clueless. And you make way too many assumptions. And your professed expertise may be about law enforcement but not much else.

 

[crabu2]

at the risk of dragging this thread back on topic, even if file handling isn't any sort of consideration current H.265 enabled cameras don't actually deliver any of the benefits that the format offers, there are currently better options that use H.264

Why, Why??

Sorry, I'm having a hard time based on my experience with the iphone and H.265. All the pics and video are tiny compared to the old standard, which is on my Android phones.

Wouldn't it be nice is H.265 worked, like it does on an iPhone? Then bit rate could be increased and still be able to record the same amount of time on a given sized sd card.

 

[crabu2]

Yeah, there's a real world out here with average dash cam users trying to submit insurance claims or work with their local law offices, utterly disconnected from elite law enforcement "evidence clouds" with random folks submitting smartphone videos of terrorist attacks or mass shootings.

Haha. My real world cop friends could care less about most anything... They're just sitting around in their squad cars watching youtube videos, waiting to retire.

 

[Dashmellow]

Haha. My real world cop friends could care less about most anything... They're just sitting around in their squad cars watching youtube videos, waiting to retire.

You're quite right. I previously mentioned my GF who handled IT services for the regional Sheriff's dept. She had lots of amusing stories to tell about removing folders of porn videos and stills from officially issued laptops carried by Deputy Sheriffs in their crusiers. I know some of these guys and many of them are sharp, dedicated professionals but sometimes it's like Reno 911.

 

[jokiin]

sometimes it's like Reno 911.

yeah I've seen that documentary

 

[jokiin]

Why, Why??

Sorry, I'm having a hard time based on my experience with the iphone and H.265. All the pics and video are tiny compared to the old standard, which is on my Android phones.

Wouldn't it be nice is H.265 worked, like it does on an iPhone? Then bit rate could be increased and still be able to record the same amount of time on a given sized sd card.

I would be nice if it worked like an iPhone, the reality is it doesn't, there's nowhere near the processing power in the chipsets used in dashcams compared to what is in an iPhone, the dashcams that have offered H.265 are still being outperformed by many other cameras that use H.264, some manufacturers prefer the marketing buzz of something that is perceived to be newer or better, whether or not that is actually the case, right now it's not delivering

 

[M A R K]

I would be nice if it worked like an iPhone, the reality is it doesn't, there's nowhere near the processing power in the chipsets used in dashcams compared to what is in an iPhone, the dashcams that have offered H.265 are still being outperformed by many other cameras that use H.264, some manufacturers prefer the marketing buzz of something that is perceived to be newer or better, whether or not that is actually the case, right now it's not delivering

Where does the limitation come in?
You are right about processing power on the iPhone. I believe using something like FilmicPro you can now push close to 120Mb bit rate in H265 at 4K which which is way beyond anything described here. But of course the iPhone has a CPU more powerful than some desktops these days (and a price tag to match)
But if I look at the new cameras touting their Sony Starvis (?) Sensors, is it the sensor itself that is the bottleneck or is it the CPU in the camera. Or to put it another way, if they used a move powerful CPU, could they get better images out of said sensor?

 

[jokiin]

But if I look at the new cameras touting their Sony Starvis (?) Sensors, is it the sensor itself that is the bottleneck or is it the CPU in the camera. Or to put it another way, if they used a move powerful CPU, could they get better images out of said sensor?

I'm not sure if the sensor is a limiting factor, I'm sure the (currently available) chipsets are an issue though, that would need improving regardless, technology is always on the move so it's just a matter of time I would think

 

[Nigel]

Where does the limitation come in?
You are right about processing power on the iPhone. I believe using something like FilmicPro you can now push close to 120Mb bit rate in H265 at 4K which which is way beyond anything described here. But of course the iPhone has a CPU more powerful than some desktops these days (and a price tag to match)
But if I look at the new cameras touting their Sony Starvis (?) Sensors, is it the sensor itself that is the bottleneck or is it the CPU in the camera. Or to put it another way, if they used a move powerful CPU, could they get better images out of said sensor?

I think the bigest problem is heat, your iPhone will not survive sitting on the dash in the sun recording at 120 Mb/s while driving across central Australia in the Australian summer.

Current dashcam chipsets don't have enough processing power for 4K 120Mb/s, but that is probably because they are using chipsets that can survive the heat, if they upgraded to more powerful chipsets then they would have a heat problem, so they don't upgrade. Hopefully we will see some of the more clever dashcam manufacturers solve the heat issues soon and bring us good 4K. The little Gitup F1 shows that it is possible, but it does it by using an Amberella processor and the dashcam manufacturers are not using those these days. There is also other stuff that needs to be added to achieve 120Mb/s, for example most of our dashcams talk to the memory card using the old SD bus, until now there has been no need to implement UHS, but to achieve your 120Mb/s it will be necessary, things like this do increase the cost of the silicon,SDK,licences and most customers see dashcams as a low cost item.

All the technology in our dashcams - lenses, sensors, CPUs, memory cards, codecs - are developing steadily, a few years behind the technology in the iPhone. It will probably never catch up, but it will match current iPhone technology in 2 or 3 years time.

H265 is new, until this year it has not been available in the chipsets commonly used by dashcams, we will see it included in the mid-high end dashcams that will arrive this year and presumably in the low end dashcams that arrive in 3 or 4 years time unless as I think is more likely it gets replaced by AV1. H265 wont provide a huge improvement though, it really wasn't designed for the content we have in our dashcam videos with the whole image changing at high speed, so will not provide half the file size with no loss of quality as promised. It does work well in typical iPhone video where the background is either static or panning slowly, although if you are using 120Mb/s then H264 could do a decent job anyway! Bringing more processing power to the H265 compression will not help much with this problem.

 

[M A R K]

H265 is new, until this year it has not been available in the chipsets commonly used by dashcams, we will see it included in the mid-high end dashcams that will arrive this year and presumably in the low end dashcams that arrive in 3 or 4 years time unless as I think is more likely it gets replaced by AV1. H265 wont provide a huge improvement though, it really wasn't designed for the content we have in our dashcam videos with the whole image changing at high speed, so will not provide half the file size with no loss of quality as promised. It does work well in typical iPhone video where the background is either static or panning slowly, although if you are using 120Mb/s then H264 could do a decent job anyway! Bringing more processing power to the H265 compression will not help much with this problem.

So H265 excels on the desktop when it comes to post production. For example the new Macs have native H265 support right on the CPU meaning rendering times in stuff like Adobe Premier is awesome. Of course this is simply not relevant to a dash cam video where you just need to view the clip and maybe stick it on YouTube etc
Yes I'm sure you could bake support for it into the chipset and maybe then start to see benefits but for a dash cam? Really? Probably not pr maybe it will just become part of the standard CPU instruction set regardless.
Plus there is no need for smaller files!
SD Cards keep getting bigger and cheaper plus on a dash cam they keep getting over written so the need to store more and more (on the camera) isn't there and as you say it would just add cost.
So whilst those files if in H265 would "play nicer" in the modern world, as you say, there is no motivation for camera manufacturers to adopt it

 

[Nigel]

So H265 excels on the desktop when it comes to post production. For example the new Macs have native H265 support right on the CPU meaning rendering times in stuff like Adobe Premier is awesome. Of course this is simply not relevant to a dash cam video where you just need to view the clip and maybe stick it on YouTube etc
Yes I'm sure you could bake support for it into the chipset and maybe then start to see benefits but for a dash cam? Really? Probably not pr maybe it will just become part of the standard CPU instruction set regardless.
Plus there is no need for smaller files!
SD Cards keep getting bigger and cheaper plus on a dash cam they keep getting over written so the need to store more and more (on the camera) isn't there and as you say it would just add cost.
So whilst those files if in H265 would "play nicer" in the modern world, as you say, there is no motivation for camera manufacturers to adopt it

They will put it in the cameras if it is in the chipset they are using, but there is no significant motivation to use a higher cost chipset just to get H265.

H265 on the desktop where it can use variable bitrate does help to reduce the size of your archives/road movies significantly, unless they are entirely under trees moving quickly. I'm not sure why cameras can't manage variable bitrate successfully, probably just that it is too slow even in silicon to guarantee real time encoding and the dashcam has to keep up with real time.

Smaller files are of some benefit, less data written to the memory card results in less heat generation, and 120Mb/s in 4K from a dual/quad camera is too much data for most memory cards to handle so still requires a prohibitively expensive memory cards - smaller files might help with the uptake of 4K dual/quad dashcams.