Mobius rival -Stylish INNOVV™ C1 from #808 family. 1080p 30fps WDR G-sensor action- dash camera

[kamkar]

Aaaa i C1ee
I want the C1 to do better than mobius video, even tho i cant really afford to by either of them at the moment.

Been looking at new actioncams the past days, but those are atleast 2X more than the C1, so it have just been a "keep up with technology exercise"

 

[horaceCJ]

The Mobius setup program is downloaded about 700 times per day, so there must be a reason that people download it .

Is this in a "normal" day or after a FW/mSetup upgrade? The downloads in the week beginning 16.10.2013 would be a much better indicator It's just curiosity, I'm happy with my #16 and my soon to arrive Mobius. BTW, thanks again for your work on these cameras and for some advices on #16 problems

 

[BobDiaz]

Yes, the video quality is the most important aspect. This is also the strongest point in favor of the Mobius. The Mobius developer only wants the absolute highest video quality possible. That is the reason he chose the lenses he has chosen, after evaluating many, many others. I don't know if the lens used in the C1 is of such high quality - that remains to be seen - but given the size of the cameras and the DSP used, I personally don't think it's possible to beat the Mobius in terms of video quality recorded.
The color settings in the Mobius' firmware are only in BETA, and still have a long way to go. As such, I can imagine the C1 could initially be better tweaked for low-light conditions, but the daylight video will most likely suffer by doing so. Maybe this is OK for dashcam use, I don't know.
I agree with you that a lot of people just want to use a camera out-of-the box. However, many people also want to have some degree of control over the firmware. The Mobius setup program is downloaded about 700 times per day, so there must be a reason that people download it . I don't think the C1 will be successful if there's no possibility to manually configure the camera, and I'm sure Innovv know this and won't leave out this important feature - at least in the long run. The C1 has an additional switch for loop video, but there are other important parameters like settings for different lighting conditions, white balance, time-lapse and AOV - just to name a few.
Setting the parameters is something people have been screaming about since the #3 era. A text file is flexible and a far better solution than the quick-and-dirty GUI used for the #26.

In the event of an accident, an off color video isn't that important. Having a viewable image of what happened IS the most important thing.

 

[JooVuu]

Some time ago, SpyTec said they'd sold 1,000 & JooVuu said they'd sold 400. Sales by other authorised sellers aren't known, however, I'd guesstimate total sales at around 7,000.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

We have now sold over 700 Mobius's. I'm not at a computer but I think we are now only a few short of 800. If you count just sales of Mobius's I would guestimate the number is probably around the 8,000 mark. My understanding is that JooVuu.com and Spytec are the two most popular sellers of the Mobius.

Kind regards,

Dan

 

[Isoprop]

Is this in a "normal" day or after a FW/mSetup upgrade? The downloads in the week beginning 16.10.2013 would be a much better indicator It's just curiosity, I'm happy with my #16 and my soon to arrive Mobius. BTW, thanks again for your work on these cameras and for some advices on #16 problems

That's the daily average for October, so it's pretty meaningless. In the worst case it could be much less than half that number if each user first downloaded the GUI and then, a few days later in the same month, did an automatic update. OR everyone downloaded the GUI a few times to different PCs. Like I said, a pretty meaningless value, but it does show that most likely the majority of users want to configure their camera and not just use it out-of-the-box. Since mSetup doesn't transmit any data whatsoever, I will never know the number of "real" users, and I think that's how it should be. I am not the manufacturer, I don't work for the NSA, and I am not interested in "spying" on other people's sales statistics.
The original point I was trying to make is that, IMO, it's imperative that there's a possibility to configure the parameters in the C1. Otherwise, the C1 will have extremely limited functionality, despite the extra switch. I'm sure the G-Sensor will be useful in some circumstances, but there should also be the possibility to turn it off. Personally, I much prefer the manual control offered in the Mobius. I can configure one video mode to normal and the other to flipped. For photo mode I only have one choice, either normal or flipped. The recording mode will be indicated by the color of the LED and can be changed at the click of a button. If access to the buttons is limited, then a G-sensor could be useful. Also, I guess, in parking mode if it triggers a recording.

 

[Isoprop]

Chuck Lohr has posted yet another link to a manufacturer who is trying to copy the Mobius! Once again the camera is not yet available, but, at $69 and including a G-sensor, it's not overpriced like the C1.
Parameters can be set via USB, but, unfortunately, it needs a dedicated driver. Once again, this reinforces the fact that the C1 must have some parameter settings if it want's to survive.
The lens is vastly inferior to the Mobius, but the G-Sensor can be turned on or off by software, which is good.
It looks as though a lot of manufactures envy the success of the Mobius and are trying to copy it's functionality, which is good for competition and end-users. However, new manufactures will have a very tough time if they want to produce a camera that can equal the Mobius.

 

[russ331]

Chuck Lohr has posted yet another link to a manufacturer who is trying to copy the Mobius!

Earlier today, I started a thread about it ... http://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threads/another-mobius-rival-the-dimika-action-cam.3024/

 

[niko]

if they want to produce a camera that can equal the Mobius.

There is no point of producing an equal product for equal end price as mobius. In this case Mobius will have a favour being longer on the market with tons of reviews and huge support from different forums.

To beat Mobius:

a) product is equal mobius but much lower in price to attract buyer in their favour, which I highly doubt: lower cost = lower parts quality = lower end result.

b) develop much better video quality and higher specs product which can result in higher price and put buyer under question of: if I pay X-amount more, will I get extras equals ( worth ) to X-amount overpaid?

 

[Isoprop]

Absolutely. So why is everyone all of a sudden trying to copy the Mobius when they know the quality and price will never be better than the Mobius?
A much better 'experiment' would be to re-design the #26. Put it into a 'GumPack' with the smallest lens possible at the side and offer it as a true spy camera capable of 1080p. Quality wouldn't be on-par with the Mobius, but that isn't the primary concern for a camera in this form. I'm not aware of a 1080p camera available in the GumPack form and can imagine it would sell better than a flashy design which tries to compete with the Mobius.
With today's technology, I don't believe it's possible to beat the Mobius' video quality using such a compact form. So, instead of making a second-rate copy, why not be truly innovative and design something entirely new where the importance lies in a concealed lens and inconspicuous design. Totally off-topic in the dashcam forum. Sorry .

 

[jokiin]

Absolutely. So why is everyone all of a sudden trying to copy the Mobius when they know the quality and price will never be better than the Mobius?
.

I think it would be a bit silly of Mobius if they were to take the attitude that someone else couldn't do it better, to stay ahead of the game they need to keep developing the product, mindful of the fact that someone else is no doubt plugging away at trying to produce a product to take some business for themselves, whether that be better, cheaper etc

while I'm sure they've done quite well these are not big numbers in comparison to the other end of the action camera market (GoPro etc), when you have a niche pretty much to themselves as they do now it's important to stay at the top of their game

 

[niko]

I will add to jokiin replay: monopoly has never been good to consumer products, especially electronics. Mobius should be thankful to "other" competitors who ( as they say ) trying to copy them. This pushes Mobius harder to work on the product development. As I mentioned in my other threads, Mobius "woke up" only after DCT users created a buzz here. Nobody wanted to listen Mtz he was writing on RC forum in the past. Especially big kick to mobius need in doing quick development gave Innovv introduction and now Dimika. So it is actually good to have competitors, even if they just copy each other.
This reminds me iPhone story were at the beginning they had monopoly and didnt care about what end user wanted, for example used that stupid 2.5mm phone jack in many series just to limit buyer choice of using / buying other brands headphones, and there were many other points where iPhone monopoly was hitting themselves. Thanks to other competitors things started to improve on iPhone.
With iPhone being "****y" at the beginning, led to loosing mobike market No1 place in many countries.
Same parallel i can draw with Mobius: having monopoly - is never good.

 

[Mtz]

The story about me on RC Groups was because Tom wants only forum specific discussions about Aerial Photography. He wasn't interested to help developing the camera, but to make it good for AP users only because the discussions are into an RC forum.

From the start of this thread I don't understand one thing:
why a rectangular shaped camera which have the lens on the smallest side must to be a Mobius copy or rival or clone?

The actual form factor of Mobius evolved from the 808 shape, and the idea was starting from the users request to have flat bottom. When Mobius launched somebody said it is a 808 clone just because the lens is on the smallest site of the rectangle?

This story about clones is old. Take a pencil and draw a rectangle with round corners. Name it smartphone. When asking people what you drawed, they will tell you that your drawing is an iPhone or a Samsung depending of how much the corners were rounded. The only smarphones in the world are iPhone or Samsung? Any other smartphone is a rival or a copy? Other manufacturers are making smartphones just to make rival to another?
Almost all people are asking me if my smartphone is a Samsung. And this is because it is white (not Samsung invented the white phone) and because is a rectangle with round corners.

Now take a pencil, draw a rectangular shaped camera with round corners and lens on the smaller side and tell me it is not a Mobius clone.

Any action camera can be compared with Mobius or Innovv and any of them can be a rival. So we can compare with Mobius also other cameras form factors.

I don't think Innovv or Dimika were invented as a copy of Mobius. I will not copy a camera which doesn't have strong marketing and advertising, is like copying nobody. If you will exclude RC Groups and an ebay store, Mobius is nobody. This not means I don't like the Mobius, or not to be a great camera. I like it, I like the great development support even too slow for my taste, and have good sales even without publicity. I am sure Innovv, Dimika, or any other dashcam want to have at least half of the Mobius sales.

And the chinese Mobius team should not forget that they are here now only because listening the people from the other part of the world, with another vision, expectations than normal chinese people. Without "the others" that team could be still selling some obscure low quality keychain camera. The chinese principles are not going in the way was going Mobius, but remain in the chinese typical battle about: how to start the war prices, to clone some well known brand just because they can't create, how to sell with any price and don't care about customers after sales. I call this type of sales as "Hit & run sales".

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[niko]

I will add to jokiin replay: monopoly has never been good to consumer products, especially electronics. Mobius should be thankful to "other" competitors who ( as they say ) trying to copy them. This pushes Mobius harder to work on the product development. As I mentioned in my other threads, Mobius "woke up" only after DCT users created a buzz here. Nobody wanted to listen Mtz he was writing on RC forum in the past. Especially big kick to mobius need in doing quick development gave Innovv introduction and now Dimika. So it is actually good to have competitors, even if they just copy each other.
This reminds me iPhone story were at the beginning they had monopoly and didnt care about what end user wanted, for example used that stupid 2.5mm phone jack in many series just to limit buyer choice of using / buying other brands headphones, and there were many other points where iPhone monopoly was hitting themselves. Thanks to other competitors things started to improve on iPhone.
Same parallel i can draw with Mobius: having monopoly - is never good.

The story about me on RC Groups was because Tom wants only forum specific discussions about Aerial Photography. He wasn't interested to help developing the camera, but to make it good for AP users only because the discussions are into an RC forum.

From the start of this thread I don't understand one thing:
why a rectangular shaped camera which have the lens on the smallest side must to be an Mobius copy or rival or clone?

The actual form factor of Mobius evolved from the 808 shape, and the idea was starting from the users request to have flat bottom. When Mobius launched somebody said it is a 808 clone just because the lens is on the smallest site of the rectangle?

This story about clones is old. Take a pencil and draw a rectangle with round corners. Name it smartphone. When asking people what you drawed, they will tell you that your drawing is an iPhone or a Samsung depending of how much the corners were rounded. Almost all people are asking me if my smartphone is a Samsung. And this is because it is white (not Samsung invented the white phone) and because is a square with round corners.

Now take a pencil, draw a rectangular shaped camera with round corners and lens on the smaller side and tell me it is not a Mobius clone.

Any action camera can be compared with Mobius or Innovv and any of them can be a rival. So we can compare with Mobius also other cameras form factors.

I don't think Innovv or Dimika were invented as a copy of Mobius. I will not copy a camera which doesn't have strong marketing and advertising, is like copying nobody. If you will exclude RC Groups and an ebay store Mobius is nothing. This not means I don't like the Mobius, or not to be a great camera. I like it, have a great development support even to slow for my taste, and have good sales even without publicity. I am sure Innovv, Dimika, or any other dashcam want to have at least the Mobius sales.

And the chinese Mobius team should not forget that they are here now only because listening the people from the other part of the world, with another vision, expectations than normal chinese people. Without "the others" that team could be still selling some obscure low quality keychain camera. The chinese principles are not going in the way was going Mobius, but remain in the chinese typical battle about: how to start the war prices, to clone some well known brand just because they can't create, how to sell with any price and don't care about customers after sales. I call this type of sales as "Hit & run sales".

enjoy,
Mtz

Hehhee. I am impressed how your telepathy matches mine @ comparison iPhone to Samsung ( my post above yours )
Good thinking !

 

[jokiin]

This story about clones is old. Take a pencil and draw a rectangle with round corners. Name it smartphone. When asking people what you drawed, they will tell you that your drawing is an iPhone or a Samsung depending of how much the corners were rounded. Almost all people are asking me if my smartphone is a Samsung. And this is because it is white (not Samsung invented the white phone) and because is a square with round corners.

I know what you mean, someone asked me the other day if my phone was a copy Samsung, I said no, it's a genuine ThL

 

[niko]

I know what you mean, someone asked me the other day if my phone was a copy Samsung, I said no, it's a genuine ThL

World first trully mass-production car was Ford model-T.
So, do we have to start calling all other cars "copy of a Ford", because they all have same 4 wheels and basic shape / design ?

 

[jokiin]

thinking you can't be beaten at your own game is poor planning, there's plenty of competition that have the resources to make life very hard should they decide they want to compete in this space, there are some very big players in the market that do some very big numbers

 

[Isoprop]

I think it would be a bit silly of Mobius if they were to take the attitude that someone else couldn't do it better, to stay ahead of the game they need to keep developing the product, mindful of the fact that someone else is no doubt plugging away at trying to produce a product to take some business for themselves, whether that be better, cheaper etc

while I'm sure they've done quite well these are not big numbers in comparison to the other end of the action camera market (GoPro etc), when you have a niche pretty much to themselves as they do now it's important to stay at the top of their game

That's exactly what they're doing! They are perfectly aware of the competition. Proof is in the constant firmware updates and tweaks and the road map for additional features. I don't think any other product offers so much support in the form of firmware updates and feature requests. This all takes time and it will be very hard for the competition to catch up - at least in the next few months. I don't want to bring up the #26 again, but that was a typical example of a manufacturer taking the attitude that no one could beat them. Zero support, no firmware updates. The Mobius team attitude has been exactly the opposite - they have always strived to have the best quality and functionality possible.
Current hardware available limits what is possible. Given the available hardware (and size) it's not possible to obtain better results except with firmware tweaks. The Mobius developer has a lot of experience in this area, so, assuming completion of phase 2, I don't see how anyone can easily obtain better, or even the same, results. A deciding factor is also the quality of the lens. Although there's always the possibility of finding a better quality lens, the lens used in the Mobius is of exceptional quality and is made to order in Japan.
I don't know the number of GoPros or Mobius sold, but the GoPro has been around for quite some time whereas the Mobius has only been around for a few months and is already extremely popular. I don't think you can compare the GoPro to the Mobius. This is not the market the Mobius team are after. The Mobius is also not purely interested in the dashcam or RC market. Their goal is a universal, highly flexible, lightweight and small camera which is suitable for many areas. It's true that the Mobius evolved out of the RC market, that's the market that first showed interest in these small and lightweight cameras.

 

[Mtz]

It is about the market segment. The 808 developers are coming from a market where they were kings of quality at a good price. They are entering now with Mobius and Innovv in a total different market share, because here are powerful competitors like GoPro. Will be much harder for both in this new space, so this is why is better for them if can take some customers from another segments like dashcam world and RC world.
It is an Action Camera. What is an "universal, highly flexible" camera except that three zones?
We must not forget also the smartphones have better and better lens, video quality. So taking the smartphone in a trip, fishing can be enough if the user want to record something expected or not. This is why he will not take its action cam everywhere, but in more specific activities like sport, dashcam, flying objects where they can't use (easy) a smartphone.

In dashcam world they are offering just one expected feature compared to other dashcams: small size. But smaller sized cameras will come because many customers like me start to look for a camera looking at the size. Then is coming quality and price.

Make the Innovv and Mobius big at least like a GoPro. Almost nobody will be interested here about how japanese are the lens and how good is the developer. These two things are like a bonus over the camera size.
Users will find the size of these cameras. Then, manufacturers must offer things expected by the users, most important being video quality (night is very important!) and price.

I know what you mean, someone asked me the other day if my phone was a copy Samsung, I said no, it's a genuine ThL

I think your ThL is not white. This is why you are not asked daily if being a Samsung.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

That's exactly what they're doing! They are perfectly aware of the competition. Proof is in the constant firmware updates and tweaks and the road map for additional features. I don't think any other product offers so much support in the form of firmware updates and feature requests. This all takes time and it will be very hard for the competition to catch up - at least in the next few months. I don't want to bring up the #26 again, but that was a typical example of a manufacturer taking the attitude that no one could beat them. Zero support, no firmware updates. The Mobius team attitude has been exactly the opposite - they have always strived to have the best quality and functionality possible.
Current hardware available limits what is possible. Given the available hardware (and size) it's not possible to obtain better results except with firmware tweaks. The Mobius developer has a lot of experience in this area, so, assuming completion of phase 2, I don't see how anyone can easily obtain better, or even the same, results. A deciding factor is also the quality of the lens. Although there's always the possibility of finding a better quality lens, the lens used in the Mobius is of exceptional quality and is made to order in Japan.
I don't know the number of GoPros or Mobius sold, but the GoPro has been around for quite some time whereas the Mobius has only been around for a few months and is already extremely popular. I don't think you can compare the GoPro to the Mobius. This is not the market the Mobius team are after. The Mobius is also not purely interested in the dashcam or RC market. Their goal is a universal, highly flexible, lightweight and small camera which is suitable for many areas. It's true that the Mobius evolved out of the RC market, that's the market that first showed interest in these small and lightweight cameras.

don't take it the wrong way, I'm not criticizing what they're doing, I'm all for them developing the product but they should never get complacent either, I mention GoPro not because they are a competing product as they're not, it's too big and heavy to do much of what a Mobius would be good at, GoPro are in the action camera sector though and do huge numbers (check their annual reports and do the sums) and have a ridiculous amount of engineering resources and cash though and if they ever felt the desire to make this kind of product they could easily do it, realistically though I don't see them even thinking about doing that, it's the smaller players which still represent much bigger numbers to Novatek that are the ones you have to watch, just don't underestimate the competition is all, don't think someone else can't get a good lens, or good engineering support etc, all they're missing right now is the desire to do it

 

[jokiin]

Make the Innovv and Mobius big at least like a GoPro. Almost nobody will be interested here about how japanese are the lens and how good is the developer. These two things are like a bonus over the camera size.
Users will find the size of these cameras. Then, manufacturers must offer things expected by the users, most important being video quality (night is very important!) and price.

you are absolutely right, there are stacks of GoPro knockoffs and nobody gives them a second look regarless of how well spec'd they might be