The downside of a wide angle lens

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Dashmellow

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Before you start pointing fingers be careful because neither of you came to a complete stop. You came close but never achieved a complete stop. If it gets into a legal 'p*ssing match' I'm sure one or both attorneys will be quick to point that out and given the other facts in the case you're likely to come up on the short end there as well.
Are you being serious? You think I should accept half responsibility for someone going right through a stop sign and hitting my car because my car was moving at 0.00001 miles an hour?
 
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I think your case is on shaky ground. As I've said, good luck if you end up in court.
OK dude, I've had about enough of your trolling. Someone clearly didn't stop when it was her turn to stop at a stop sign, and you're insisting it's my fault. And in several threads you've attacked me, called me stupid, and insisted on things that weren't factual. I don't really understand what this obsession is that you have with me. I'm reporting you to the mods.
 
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I think your case is on shaky ground. As I've said, good luck if you end up in court.
I showed my supervisor, a highway patrol captain with a lot of experience in this stuff, and he said it's clearly her fault and good thing I have video. So no I'm not concerned that I would be held responsible for someone else going through a stop sign
 

Dashmellow

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OK dude, I've had about enough of your trolling. Someone clearly didn't stop when it was her turn to stop at a stop sign, and you're insisting it's my fault. And in several threads you've attacked me, called me stupid, and insisted on things that weren't factual. I don't really understand what this obsession is that you have with me. I'm reporting you to the mods.
I'm simply offering my opinion and you asked for people's opinions. If you think that is trolling you should grow a pair. Basically, it appears that you were looking for approval about the circumstances of your traffic accident but no one here seems to agree with your position that you are completely without blame here. It's certainly not just me. Again, good luck if you go to court over this. The final arbitrator won't be a couple of guys on an internet forum it will be law enforcement, insurance adjusters and lawyers.

And no, I'm not obsesed with you. Most of the time I ignore you as a matter of fact.
 
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I'm simply offering my opinion and you asked for people's opinions. If you think that is trolling you should grow a pair. Basically, you it appears that you were looking for approval about the circumstances of your traffic accident but no one here seems to agree with your position that you are completely without blame here. It's certainly not just me. Again, good luck if you go to court over this. The final arbitrator won't be a couple of guys on an internet forum it will be law enforcement, insurance adjusters and lawyers.

And no, I'm not obsesed with you. Most of the time I ignore you as a matter of fact.
She. Ran. The. Stop. Sign.

How is that not clear to you?
 

Dashmellow

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I forget that you claim to be in law enforcement. You certainly never come off as one, especially here in this thread.
 

TwoBlues

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TwoBlues

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She

Ran

The

Stop

Sign
v
Always sign up witnesses! Even the State Police can't be counted on to decide who was at fault!!
That's why insurance companies have confabs to decide fault in serious accidents with injuries!
Our systems work better than in the U.K.!
 
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SawMaster

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Generally the law is as Dashmellow states, but if the first car JP yielded to came from the same point it was clearly impossible for the colliding car to have stopped properly, as JP would have clearly been in the intersection (and appears to have been) before that colliding car could have been had they entered the intersection legally. Thus JP should be exonerated.

Points of law in their order of importance:
1- You may not enter an intersection until it is clear of traffic which would keep you from proceeding through and exiting the intersection safely.
2- If two cars approach a 4-way stop intersection at approximately the same time, the car to the left must yield to the car to the right.
3- Not a codified law in every State, but universally there is a legal expectation for you to avoid colliding with other cars when possible.

JP was already in the intersection before the collider entered. Thus the collider could not legally enter the intersection
JP had already yielded to the car to his right, and thus fulfilled his obligation to yield.
The collider must have seen JP and collided anyway. Or they were not watching where they were going (reckless driving).

Based on that State's laws, JP may be held partially accountable for not avoiding a preventable collision. Here in SC there is no "shared fault" like that legally but it is considered in the insurance realms. Also note where I underlined "approximately"-this word was inserted into SC law to eliminate the "I was there first" arguments, which doesn't apply here anyway as JP did yield as required so he had to have been there first.

Now the touchy part and I'm not out to bash anyone here. JP should have seen that colliding car, which the cam clearly shows was visible. The only exceptions I can see possible are if the "A" pillar blocked his view, or if there was a blinding sunlight coming from that direction. Yes, I know he and most everyone else is looking at their own path, but we have a legal obligation to also watch all around us at intersections, even when there should not be traffic coming from that way. Having ridden on two wheels long enough my head swivels all round like crazy at intersections, and I look in every direction except directly behind me at least twice before entering and more as I traverse through the intersection too. On a bike it's a survival habit you WILL learn one way or another. Yet few car drivers do this, and based on how JP described the experience it seems he didn't look as well as he should have. But even with that, the collider was at fault and has broken at least two clearly defined laws while JP has broken none.

Just my opinion and more than anything I'm glad nobody was injured. And I will always have a 'wide-angle' cam riding along with me because of things like this.

Phil
 

Dashmellow

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I went to the trouble of re-reading the @jackalopephoto's OP for this thread and it places this entire somewhat contentious discussion in an interesting perspective.

To make things easier I will copy the original post here for the purposes of discussion:

"Yesterday I was turning left at a 4 way stop, and someone went through the stop sign and hit my passenger front door. I couldn't see her once I was in the intersection looking at where I was going, and even if I did, wouldn't have had enough time to avoid the crash. But I posted my video in a group for my car (VW Alltrack) and almost everyone said I could have avoided the crash if I was paying attention! That's fine, but what if the misleading view provided by the wide angle causes your insurance company to accept fault for a crash? Or what if you were involved in a crash that went to court and the jury doesn't understand "field of view"?

Maybe we should have cameras that capture a view similar to what we see from the driver seat
, and make up for it with multiple cameras providing coverage"


So we are informed that the OP had already presented the story and the video to a different discussion forum and "almost everyone" said that he could have avoided the accident if he were paying attention. This echoes the perspective of several of the members here including me.

Nowhere in the Original Post is there any mention of the other driver failing to obey the stop sign.

The entire concern we hear expressed by @jackalopephoto revolves around the question of whether the wide view of most dash cams is "misleading" because a court and jury might not understand "field of view". Indeed the title of this thread is "The downside of a wide angle lens".

Only after repeated scrutiny of the video did the issue of running the stop sign come into this discussion. That fact revealed in the video might indeed be @jackalopephoto's proof that he is not at fault in this accident but since there is evidence of a bit of a "rolling stop" on his part, a court or insurance claim may or may not be so cut and dried.

The interesting thing here is that the wide angle lens happens to be the very reason that the other motorist was captured on camera blowing through the stop sign.

Instead of there being a downside, it provided the key evidence now claimed by the OP.

How ironic.

P.S. @jackalopephoto, I do concede that the other driver ran the stop sign even though you didn't happen to mention that in your introduction to this story but if this case should indeed go to court I do hope you win. :)
 
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SawMaster

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The interesting thing here is that the wide angle lens happens to be the very reason that the other motorist was captured on camera blowing through the stop sign.
This exactly. And it also clearly shows JP yielding to the first car to his right as he should have, thus automatically meaning the colliding car jumped the gun. And possibly had an intentional collision, but most positively was not paying heed to what was in the path of his car.

I had a problem at a 4-way stop recently myself where by going in turn like everyone else was doing, I entered the intersection to go straight across while the car to my right arrived late, did a rolling stop, then instead of braking to avoid me legally crossing they tried to 'gun it' to cut me off, but I was on top of that and I was already accelerating. T'was a newer black 5-series BMW with a lawyer-looking driver who both cussed me and tried to tell me he was right. I normally don't do audio but that day I had it going on a cam I was testing. I was severely hoping he tried to make something of it and was a lawyer because I'd have gotten his butt dis-barred too. Some of it was on my front cams and some on my side-cam, which I have set up more-or-less as a 'super-wide' angle recorder just for crap like this :cool:

Phil
 

mollydog

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seeing the video clip a few times I get the impression that the other driver was either on their phone or not driving with due care,

if you notice the other car is only following what the car in front is doing, slows down as the car in front slows down and sets off as the car in front sets off,

anyone who had their eyes on the road ahead would of seen jackalopephoto being in the middle of this 4 way section and would of hit their brakes hard,

but this isn’t the case, they just keep on driving right in to the side of the car, and as it was all at a very slow speed there would of been ample time to have stopped

they weren’t looking ahead they were on their phone 100%, I bet if you can get their phone records it would show they were having a text or phone conversation,

the first they knew a car was on the intersection was when they hit jackalopephoto
 

TonyM

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I said I thought it was 50:50 in my initial response. However I admit that we don't have 4-way stops here in the UK so I'm not familiar with their associated rules and driver etiquette. In my mind the difference between rolling slowly and coming to an absolute stop is minimal, though perhaps I'm happier with shades of grey where others see only in black & white.

Irrespective of whether the other driver ran the stop sign or not, she apparently did nothing to avoid the accident when she should have seen JP's car in front of her.

Back to the thread title, here the wide angle does help to show what happened, as @Dashmellow pointed out. And and @jackalopephoto suggested in the first post, a side-facing camera might have helped to show whether or not the other driver was distracted by a phone, kids, cup of coffee etc.
 

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Yesterday I was turning left at a 4 way stop, and someone went through the stop sign and hit my passenger front door. I couldn't see her once I was in the intersection looking at where I was going, and even if I did, wouldn't have had enough time to avoid the crash. But I posted my video in a group for my car (VW Alltrack) and almost everyone said I could have avoided the crash if I was paying attention! That's fine, but what if the misleading view provided by the wide angle causes your insurance company to accept fault for a crash? Or what if you were involved in a crash that went to court and the jury doesn't understand "field of view"?

Maybe we should have cameras that capture a view similar to what we see from the driver seat, and make up for it with multiple cameras providing coverage https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/u9wNHQute1lxRrI079tje0lKpVeHAy2e11x9NZ7Dedr
This accident was so unnecessary. You saw him and yet did not give way. Speeds were low and yet you did not yield.
Imagine if this happened at high speeds.


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This accident was so unnecessary. You saw him and yet did not give way. Speeds were low and yet you did not yield.
Imagine if this happened at high speeds.


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Exactly my point, the wide angle of the video makes it look like it was avoidable, but I could not see anything, and as I've posted several times before, if I did happen to look out my right window and saw that she was going through the intersection, it would have been too late to react. I had 2 seconds between her front end reaching the white line and the collision.

Here's an aerial photo with vehicles to scale. Notice how close the distances are compared to how they appear on the video? She was almost 90 degrees to the right and I would have had to see, react, and stop on a dime to avoid the collision
 

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Nigel

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Exactly my point, the wide angle of the video makes it look like it was avoidable, but I could not see anything, and as I've posted several times before, if I did happen to look out my right window and saw that she was going through the intersection, it would have been too late to react. I had 2 seconds between her front end reaching the white line and the collision.

Here's an aerial photo with vehicles to scale. Notice how close the distances are compared to how they appear on the video? She was almost 90 degrees to the right and I would have had to see, react, and stop on a dime to avoid the collision
Crop the video down to what you consider normal angle and re-post, then see what people think...

Any video editor can reduce the field of view to exactly as it would be seen by a narrower lens.

I have no idea of the rules in your part of the world, we don't have this type of junction, but it appears to me that she did her stop (not 100% stopped but still a partial attempt at one) and then set off again before you set off, she crossed the stop line and entered the junction before you? I also find it odd that a quick look to your right shortly after you set off and before turning wouldn't have seen that there was an issue, she was always in line of sight, only explanation seems to be that maybe your view was blocked by your excessively thick A-pillar? That is your problem, not hers.

Seems rather like tunnel vision from both parties!
Even if it is not a legal requirement to avoid accidents, it is sensible and saves a lot of inconvenience.
 
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