Motorcycle and SUV crash at Intersection

[Nigel]

The car driver almost certainly did look, just didn't look far enough away because normally you don't need a mile of clear road in order to make a right turn, it was the unusually high speed that led to the accident, the bike rider knew the risks he was taking.

I wonder if you'd feel the same way if this were 2 cars instead?

If a car was doing 100mph through that junction then I would still blame that car, not the one turning.

I rather like the judges response in this accident, where he not only jailed the car driver but also jailed his passenger and 10 others, 140mph is simply not safe on roads like these and the driver knew that perfectly well.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ed-nine-years-yorkshire-quad-bike-death-crash

 

[old4570]

I rode a bike like some one trying to avoid Murderers ! intent on killing you ..
Every single car was a potential killer and thats how I treated them - Like they were intentionally trying to kill me ...
So I rode my bike the way I felt safe ... Not like a Target !

Unfortunately the standard for obtaining and maintaining ( keeping ) a license are way too lax ..
There are clues to who is dangerous and who is not !
You don't need to be Einstein to read the signs .
Poor drivers usually have accidents , get tickets , lose points off their licenses ..
They have insurance claims against them , all sorts of warning signs ( usually ) before they kill !

And its not just bike riders at risk , pedestrians too often are treated like targets ..
There really are some seriously dangerous people out there that need to be removed from public roads .
There is enough dashcam footage out there to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that some people should not have access to a car . ( Or a Gun )
Obviously the responsibility is simply too much . ( To be safe )

Hell , I went for a walk last evening .. I did not see one car driving at night without lights , but within about 5 minutes I saw two cars driving down the road with no lights ( at night ) ...
There really are some stupid people out there ..

 

[SawMaster]

The car driver almost certainly did look, just didn't look far enough away

Edited not to change the context of your words Nigel, but to point out the core of the problem I noted about people not paying enough attention. Many others saw the bike because they were paying enough attention; the car driver who crashed and claimed to not see the bike coming was not paying enough attention. Simple.

We all know that some people speed and operate recklessly in other ways too. That they shouldn't do that doesn't really matter when it comes to the question of whether you or I did what we should have done correctly. If you can see a mile up the road, there is no valid reason to look only 100 meters up the road. We're supposed to watch everything, not just what we believe is legally possible Like I said about the biker, you have to expect the unexpected and to do what is possible to not let it have an adverse effect. Were it a curve, hill, or something else obstructing the view I'd agree with you more, but just because something is harder to do here than usual is no excuse for not doing it. It is not legal to cross a lane of traffic to make your turn unless you can safely do that- I know of no exceptions written into to that law.

This is why I asked people if they would see it differently were it a truck and not a bike, for the kind of drivers over here who turn in front of motorcycles never do that with trucks because they know which one will likely harm them and which will likely not, thus they look accordingly and see oncoming trucks but not oncoming bikes I suspect that this kind of person and their mentality occurs everywhere

People need to pay more attention, they need to look for motorcycles, trucks, anything and everything for as far as they can see just in case someone else isn't doing the right thing. This does not excuse the other party for the wrong they may do, but it keeps you and I from doing wrong too and I hope we all want that

As to the junction something should be done to make it safer, but that is another topic.

Phil

 

[kamkar]

Looking, i assume are now the reason everything over here got to have light on, aside for mopeds and bicycles that dont need that during the daytime.
But when i was a kid / younger motorcycles and cars dident even have to have the light on, that changed i assume for the reason that people did left or right turns in front of people.
And i dont think it helped just a little bit, it really got nothing to do with the light on stuff in the daytime, it is more to do with the attitude of the person about to do something that might be a issue for someone else.
But today people have so many other things on their minds ( why i dont know cuz really with technology people dont need to think that much )
And so not thinking on relevant stuff, people are now thinking on " i wonder how many likes that picture of my dinner time meal have by now" or something at the same level of stupid.
And that's what get many people killed today In the old days it was stupid that got people killed in traffic, today its often beyond that.

So in this case the guy in the SUV should have been thinking " i am about to make a left turn across a oncoming lane that still have green light"
And then he should reason "well then i better make damn sure no one are coming the other way"
And then when that's done make the left turn and not kill anyone.

 

[jokiin]

There are two types of bike riders, those that have had an accident, and those that are about to

I've had bikes for many years, (don't have one right now but will look at getting another one soon) and you have to ride like everyone else on the road is out to get you, can't rely on people seeing you

 

[tabetha]

sorry my bad

 

[Jackdore]

Sawmaster,
I disagree, for anyone familiar with this junction knows the junction is at the bottom of a long dip each side so eyes not looking up

I use to work in Dereham and went past that junction everyday to and from norwich. Seen so many close calls there due to people mis judging the speed of the traffic dunno if its something to do with the hill but most of the incidents i've seen have excessive speed as the cause there. People just seem in a rush to get onto the dual carriage ways further up the roads.

 

[old4570]

Yeah , for some strange reason - People are desperate and in a hurry ? ( Why ? )
Is life held in such disregard that getting there 1 minute earlier is worth dying or killing over ? ( apparently )

 

[Rajagra]

I've only skimmed through the comments, but am I the only one who can see that the biker in the OP video was not only going very fast, but had clearly just overtaken a car that was in the right-most of the usable lanes?
(And that car may have been about to turn right, I think I see the indicator going, but it may just be a reflection.)

The car that turned saw the approaching car and judged that there was time to turn safely. But he didn't see the biker because he was behind the approaching car.
Overtaking at a junction, on the wrong side of the centre line, when you aren't visible, is dumb, dumb, dumb.

Terrible accident. Completely avoidable. But not if you are a member of the entitlement brigade, the ones who think they have a right to take risks and be immune to the consequences.

Some car drivers are good , yet others are **** ...

There are two types of bike riders, those that have had an accident, and those that are about to

These are the reasons why bikers NEED to ride defensively. The rights and wrongs don't matter much, the dangers are what they are. You're never far from a bad driver. You either manage the risks or you leave yourself at the mercy of pot luck. And since the consequences for bikers are rarely trivial, you have to be crazy to pretend the risks aren't there. But increasingly, they do.

 

[old4570]

The other issue is Johnny LAW !
The LAW does not allow motor bike riders to ride safely , and does not acknowledge the risk ( added ) that bike riders face ..
That oops fender bender cars have that usually don't involve Johnny LAW , are too often life or death incidents for bike riders .
A minor incident between cars ? Not so minor for bike riders . ( And their in lies a serious problem )
Not all road users are equal ! At the top of the food chain are trucks and at the bottom of the food chain are pedestrians and the further down the food chain you are the more disdain you suffer . ( disregard )
A little like the Indian cast system ...
A lot of countries need to rewrite their road laws to bring them up to speed with what is happening today , rather than 20 years ago ..
There is so much wrong out there and no one seems prepared to make it right !

 

[Rajagra]

The LAW does not allow motor bike riders to ride safely

Sorry, but that's just BS. There's no other response to that.

Bikers can keep their distance. They can reduce relative speed. They can reduce absolute speed. They can exercise lane discipline. They can stop assuming things are safe. There's no end of things they can do to make themselves safER, even if they can never be 100% safe. And if you decide it's too dangerous even with the utmost caution, then stop riding.

Too many people put convenience above their own safety. Those on two wheels do this the most, and they are the least able to get away with it. But the constant mantra is "my rights, my rights." Screw rights. If you deliberately put your life in danger you deserve no sympathy from anyone.

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[tabetha]

Rajagra, no you are not the only one I too put all the blame squarely on the biker, I know when I was a biker my headlight was on all the time and I slowed through junctions especially bad ones like this, I am constantly mystified why the softest targets bikers ride like they have some invisible shield of armour and take the most risks not giving a stuff about danger they cause to themselves which frankly I'm not bothered about(it's their choice)but they cause a danger to other people I find it disgusting the car driver was prosecuted, but am also 99% sure it was not successful and it was quoshed later the biker could just as easily have come to grief from a car turning right going in his direction as was was blasting past like most and it is most, bikers do. I think one of the major problems is the age with which you can ride a machine this fast especially amongst males as they don't imo have the sensible button turned on, speaking from personal experience the new found freedom which is fantastic is distracting from the real dangers I had spills off road all the time but speed tarmac and traffic a whole different game.
I have the utmost respect for the bikers parents for releasing this video so that others might learn from it and see reality

 

[old4570]

Sorry, but that's just BS. There's no other response to that.

Bikers can keep their distance. They can reduce relative speed. They can reduce absolute speed. They can exercise lane discipline. They can stop assuming things are safe. There's no end of things they can do to make themselves safER, even if they can never be 100% safe. And if you decide it's too dangerous even with the utmost caution, then stop riding.

Too many people put convenience above their own safety. Those on two wheels do this the most, and they are the least able to get away with it. But the constant mantra is "my rights, my rights." Screw rights. If you deliberately put your life in danger you deserve no sympathy from anyone.

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This is so funny ...
Blame the Victim of stupidity for being there to be victimized ...

To hell with rights hu ?
So when some one kicks in your door , does harm to you and your family ...
You will be there on the 6 O clock news saying , FK my rights ! I and my family deserved it !

Thats some pretty FKed up thinking right there ..
Unless of course its all about , FK other peoples rights , but dont dare trod on mine ?

Try GOD's law !

Do onto others ! as you would have others do onto YOU !

 

[tabetha]

old4570 you are destroying your own argument, "do unto others" does this mean you would want all bikers and cars trucks busses etc doing 100mph through these junctions so they are doing to the biker what he did to them ?, biker was inviting disaster this junction always has loose gravel on it, sometimes diesel
It's very clear had biker been doing 60mph or even slowed a bit like most sensible people do here he very well might have avoided this or at worst just a few scrapes, doing the magic ton on a empty dual carriageway is VERY VERY different than doing it through a junction with cars busses trucks going FOUR different directions TWO directions directly across your path, let's say he didn't contact the front of the car but instead went to the left or right would he have lived no one knows.
Whilst it isn't sometimes easy to apportion blame in these sad circumstances it still exists bikers parents have likely through their brave actions with this vid saved others

 

[Rajagra]

I only blame victims of stupidity when it's their own stupidity. The fact that you've suffered does not mean you weren't the cause of your own misery.

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[old4570]

A) I am not excusing wrong doing on anyone's behalf
B) Gods law was not implied for the biker or car driver
C) Two wrongs don't make a right
D) I am on no ones side here
C) Bike riders that FK themselves over ( I don't care ) , but way too often they are the victims of what would be a very minor oops ( car to car ) , but when its car to bike it's very often not minor ..
E) It is pretty much a established fact , car drivers are too often blind to everything not car ( well cars and trucks some times as well ) How many cam captures have I seen where some idiot just turns into a oncoming vehicle (?) I have lost track .
F) Please don't take what I say out of context ...

 

[Nigel]

I've had bikes for many years, (don't have one right now but will look at getting another one soon) and you have to ride like everyone else on the road is out to get you, can't rely on people seeing you

In reality, almost nobody else is out to get you, if you assume that they are then you are not dealing with the real problems.

Around here we do have a few good bikers, they are easy to recognise, they are the ones that haven't painted their bikes matt black, are not wearing black clothing, do not have black helmets with black tinted visors, do not drive with their lights switched off, do not break the rules of the road, but do slow down when everyone else does, do join the queues instead of jumping them, do behave like all the other road users, do slow down at junctions with traffic crossing or joining, don't trust BMWs that aren't indicating, do give me a wave if I move over to let them pass in a safe place, etc. Generally those bikers get treated with respect, except by BMWs of course.

We even have some good cyclists, passed one coming in the other direction a few weeks ago, he was wearing florescent yellow impossible to miss, had a bright orange helmet, a florescent orange bike, had his headlights on constant not flashing, and he gave me a wave to say slow down ... bit odd because I was stuck behind an ancient guy doing 20mph but I took his advice and 3 corners and about 1 mile further on, in the middle of a straight where I would have overtaken the 20mph car if I hadn't had the warning, there was a mobile speed camera van hidden at the side of the road, so we crawled passed the speed camera at 25mph in a 50 zone! Again, if the cyclists follow the normal rules of the road and common sense then they normally get treated with respect.

 

[jokiin]

In reality, almost nobody else is out to get you, if you assume that they are then you are not dealing with the real problems.

ok, I'll rephrase, just for you

you have to ride like you're invisible, you can't rely on people seeing you

the issue here is referred to as SMIDSY (sorry mate, I didn't see you), you don't need to be blacked out with no lights on for this to be the case

 

[Rajagra]

Yes, a lot of drivers don't look properly, or look but don't see. When I started riding it was one of the first things I learned, no biker could get away from the message. Every trainer taught it. Every biking publication mentioned it. A lot.

It still didn't prepare me for the idiot who waited for around 20s as I approached a crossroads - no reason for her to wait apart from me being on the main road - then she pulled out literally at the last second and I slammed into the side of the car and flew over the roof.

Sure, I was angry. I had decided beforehand that if anyone ever did that to me I would beat the hell out of them. But it was a woman so I missed out on that pleasure.

But as well as being angry, I LEARNED from it and changed my riding to make it less likely to happen again.

The problem with today's riders is they refuse to learn. They refuse to compromise. They refuse to accept reality and deal with it. They refuse to accept that if THEY don't MAKE themselves safe... they just won't be safe.

Oh, one last comment about the most valuable lesson I was taught. Anyone who says "there was nothing I could have done" is wrong. There is always something you could have done differently. It's up to you to work out what it is. Otherwise there is a relevant phrase about madness defined as doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

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[Deleted member 46308]

ok, I'll rephrase, just for you

you have to ride like you're invisible, you can't rely on people seeing you

the issue here is referred to as SMIDSY (sorry mate, I didn't see you), you don't need to be blacked out with no lights on for this to be the case

Common sense is always the best practice