Imagine if Viofio etc Videos Were This Clear

[Dashmellow]

So, it turns out that along with Canon, SONY too has been producing professional level video cameras with global shutters for some time now.

Sony Unveils Super 35mm, 4K CMOS Global Shutter Camera

The HDC-F5500 system camera offers a cinematic shallow depth of field

www.tvtechnology.com

They have a whole family of 4K and 2K global shutter cameras optimized for a range of different purposes such as live TV broadcasts, sporting events and entertainment as well as high speed and ultra- slow motion capture, among other features and capabilites.

4K & HD Camera Systems - Sony Pro

Discover Sony 4K & HD Camera Systems. 4K, 2K, High Frame Rate (HFR), High Dynamic Range (HDR) & ultra-slow motion. Find out more.

pro.sony

Global shutter sensors are used mainly to monitor things on production lines where you can't use rolling shutter

So, once again apparently not, Nigel.

 

[Nigel]

So, it turns out that along with Canon, SONY too has been producing professional level video cameras with global shutters for some time now.

Sony Unveils Super 35mm, 4K CMOS Global Shutter Camera

The HDC-F5500 system camera offers a cinematic shallow depth of field

www.tvtechnology.com

They have a whole family of 4K and 2K global shutter cameras optimized for a range of different purposes such as live TV broadcasts, sporting events and entertainment as well as high speed and ultra- slow motion capture, among other features and capabilites.

4K & HD Camera Systems - Sony Pro

Discover Sony 4K & HD Camera Systems. 4K, 2K, High Frame Rate (HFR), High Dynamic Range (HDR) & ultra-slow motion. Find out more.

pro.sony

So, once again apparently not, Nigel.

I don't expect many people buy the Sony HDC F5500 for dashcam use, it costs: €107,100.00

Sony HDC-F5500

System camera with Super 35mm 4K CMOS image sensor and Global Shutter

www.bpm-media.de

Have you not got the message yet, global shutter sensors do not currently give an advantage for dashcam use!

 

[Nigel]

Absolutely true. Between the 640x480 resolution, in camera I.S. causing 'swimming', and less than ideal mounting (just wedged against the windshield) causing vibration in spite of the I.S. the result left a lot to be desired. Forget trying to get a plate number unless you're directly behind a vehicle and not moving, Certainly makes 1080 resolution and a solid mount look really good.

Video circa Oct. '08.

The "LED" flicker on the toll sign is pretty bad too, decent modern dashcams have very few issues with LED lighting.

 

[Dashmellow]

I don't expect many people buy the Sony HDC F5500 for dashcam use, it costs: €107,100.00

Sony HDC-F5500

System camera with Super 35mm 4K CMOS image sensor and Global Shutter

www.bpm-media.de

So once again NIgel, since you have nothing worthwhile or intelligent to add to the discussion you change the subject and move the goalposts!

First you claimed that global shutter CMOS sensors are only used in machine vision systems, yet now that we learn that global shutters are being deployed in new generations of surveillance cameras and are being used in high end broadcast video cameras, cinematography and drones you make silly remarks about how nobody would spend many tens of thousands of dollars (for the body only) to buy an outrageously expensive professional video system designed specifically for broadcast and studio work for use as a dash cam.

What a gratuitously irrelevant and inane thing to say!

The increasing popularity of these new global shutter sensor cameras in professional circles is due to their high sensitivity, low noise, acuity and freedom from distortion. The fact that these sensors are currently only available in high end cameras is the relevant fact here. Practically every single digital consumer electronics product you've ever owned started as technology in the high end of the market before eventually reaching a technical maturity, manufacturing expertise and market saturation that brings the price down to the consumer level.

The first professional digital DSLR on the market was the Kodak Professional Digital Camera System (DCS) introduced in 1991 which had a separate 200MB hard disc drive that was carried over the shoulder that was capable of storing up to 156 uncompressed 1.3MP images. It cost around $30,000 at the time, In today's price that would be almost $65,000! A typical point and shoot pocket cam today could vastly outperform it. The first VCRs on the market (SONY BetaMax) cost $2000.00 ($10,866 today!) but by the time VCR's became obsolete you could buy one with better performance for less that $100. The first handheld consumer GPS units (Magellan) were introduced in 1989 and cost thousands of dollars and weighed 1.5 lbs. Now they are tiny and in smartphones, smartwatches, dash cams and elsewhere at minimal cost with vastly increased accuracy and speed of satellite acquisition.

Some form of (reasonably priced) Global Shutter CMOS sensors will follow the same path as the ones in our current dash cams, digital cameras, smartphones, surveillance cameras, video doorbells, etc. Or perhaps it will be a whole new sensor technology that has yet to emerge from the lab. Remember, early digital cameras used CCD sensors which for most purposes have been entirely replaced by CMOS sensors today. This is the progression of technology in the marketplace. Rolling shutters are an aging and flawed technology that is ripe for replacement.

Have you not got the message yet, global shutter sensors do not currently give an advantage for dashcam use!

You are obviously not paying attention, probably intentionally so. This is at least the second time you've made the same provocative remark accusing me of something I never said. I never suggested that global sensors as they currently exist would be useful in dash cams. This entire discussion began as speculation about what possible future developments we might see in dash cams which were claimed by a new member to be evolving at a "snails pace" so I brought up the speculation that one day a company like SONY might develop a global shutter sensor suitable for dash cams and other consumer level products that would offer vastly improved performance and clarity unheard of today.

Just because global shutters do not "currently" exist for dash cams (and other consumer products) doesn't mean we may not eventually benefit from their advantages.

At no time did I suggest that we will be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon.

Please stop wasting everyone's time with fatuous posts like this.

 

[DAP]

SONY is not marketing these sensors to clueless consumer electronics customers. They are marketing to companies building high end machine vision systems and specialized surveillance cameras. I seriously doubt the engineers designing these systems and making purchasing decisions would fall for hyperbole and hype from SONY.

Both global shutter and high sensitivity are factors that contribute to better visual acuity in video capture.

I AM an electronics engineer, and I did not fall for the marketing BS, but that never stopped the marketing people from putting BS in the glossy marketing documents that was proven to be BS once you read the actual data sheet for the part.

 

[kamkar]

As i recall the 1" sensor insta360 use in their action cameras are a 20 mpix sensor, i am not sure if there are any binning going on to boost low light performance or if t he shear sensor size allow for large pixels.

In just about any walk of life there are a lot of embellishing going on, and i have to admit as a down to earth person it can frustrate the hell out of me.
Ill award myself 1 feel good point here for using and spelling embellishing correct,,,,,, and i also think i have used it correct with my limited DIY English skills. ( as in making things look better with words ) sort of a "pimp my ride" for learned people.

One of my favorite hate words relate to this,,,,,, Spin doctors

 

[Dashmellow]

I AM an electronics engineer, and I did not fall for the marketing BS, but that never stopped the marketing people from putting BS in the glossy marketing documents that was proven to be BS once you read the actual data sheet for the part.

I don't disagree with you. I think we are basically saying the same thing. When I said, "I seriously doubt the engineers designing these systems and making purchasing decisions would fall for hyperbole and hype from SONY." I meant that engineers would look at the data and thoroughly test sample components before making purchasing decisions and incorporating things like these high end sensors into a product. I was trying to make the distinction between average consumers and engineers when it comes to susceptibility to product hype.

 

[Nigel]

At no time did I suggest that we will be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon.

Please stop wasting everyone's time with fatuous posts like this.

I'm having difficulty following your arguments, especially when you are arguing with yourself, and yet appear to have edited out your comments in your previous post so that I can't see them in context!

Then you argue with DAP, and then in your last post say that you agreed with him even though it was clear that you were originally saying the exact opposite; although you have edited the majority of your previous posts, so nobody knows what you actually said and you have now managed to make it look like DAP was being stupid when he is the one that actually understands what he is talking about!

 

[Dashmellow]

I'm having difficulty following your arguments, especially when you are arguing with yourself, and yet appear to have edited out your comments in your previous post so that I can't see them in context!

Then you argue with DAP, and then in your last post say that you agreed with him even though it was clear that you were originally saying the exact opposite; although you have edited the majority of your previous posts, so nobody knows what you actually said and you have now managed to make it look like DAP was being stupid when he is the one that actually understands what he is talking about!

Firstly Nigel, I often edit my posts to fix typos or add some afterthoughts but I do not go back and alter what I say, so please stop these spurious allegations. In particular here you are quoting a comment I've made at least three times going back a week now disputing your false allegation that I said that global shutter sensors will be used in dash cams sometime in the near future.

To be specific here is my initial exact quote from July 9th disputing your assertion:

From my first comments about these sensors at no time did I suggest that we will be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon.

Then you said:

Are you suggesting that we won't?

The I replied:

That's correct! We won't be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon, especially the Pregius family.

I'm so sorry to hear you can't follow context in this thread. Perhaps you have a cognitive problem? Your arguments seem nonsensical and appear designed to deflect from your own incorrect asseverations.

My reply to DAP was very specific and clear and confined only to his last post where he asserted that engineers read the actual data sheet for a particular component. In agreeing with him I acknowledged that engineers would be unlikely to fall for any marketing hype and instead "would look at the data and thoroughly test sample components before making purchasing decisions and incorporating things like these high end sensors into a product." I further stated that marketing hype might sway the average consumer but not skilled engineers evaluating and choosing components for products that cost tens of thousands of dollars.

As I repeatedly point out, you seem to have a habit of changing the subject and moving the goalposts. For example, you falsely asserted that global shutters are primarily used only in computer machine vision systems yet when I pointed out that global shutter are increasingly been in used in high end professional video cameras and have been for several years, you'd rather not talk about it, instead engaging in petty distractions like this silly post of yours. After that you repeatedly claimed that I stated that global shutters will soon be seen in dash cams which I have made clear on multiple occasions I never said. Yet here you still repeat the same false accusation!

As I've said a week ago in this thread and again on Monday, "I think you argue for the sake of arguing, not because you have anything worthwhile to add to the discussion. It's a tired old pattern as this point."

And yet, here we are again!

Obviously, my prior remarks have been eating away at you. Why else return to discussions and petty arguments from nearly a week ago with a post like this one? Get over it. Move on.

 

[Nigel]

. In particular here you are quoting a comment I've made at least three times going back a week now disputing your false allegation that I said that global shutter sensors will be used in dash cams sometime in the near future.

Where did I make that false allegation?

As far as I am aware, it was me that suggested that we may be moving to global shutter sensors for dashcams in a generation or two, which is another reason I don't understand any of your arguments!

 

[Dashmellow]

You've repeatedly attacked my statement that "we won't be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon". I did however suggest that we may eventually see them, which is what started this discussion. If we do see them it will be years from now.

Your response was that global shutters are only in machine vision systems and require strobe light to freeze motion, and that they are not sensitive enough. (SONY's current global shutter sensors do appear to have "starlight" sensitivity)

So, now after arguing with me for over a week that global shutters are not suitable for dash cams ever since I first suggested that one day we may see them in dash cams you are now going to take credit for it? Jeez!

 

[Nigel]

you are now going to take credit for it? Jeez!

Well that is clear then, you claim that we will not be seeing global shutters in dashcams any time soon, while I say that rolling shutters may become obsolete for the higher quality sensors in one or two more generations of image sensor:

That's correct! We won't be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon

Given one or two more generations of image sensor, rolling shutter may become obsolete for the higher quality image sensors,

This claim of yours is false:

You've repeatedly attacked my statement that "we won't be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon".

I have just been agreeing with DAP, that global shutter sensors do not reduce motion blur, I have also been pointing out that Sony's global shutter sensors are less sensitive than the STARVIS sensors, thus their global shutter sensors actually have more motion blur.

You were completely wrong about:

the rolling shutter delay is also a major factor in contributing to motion blur. A global shutter such as the one provided by the Pregius S can avoid motion blur completely by eliminating lag between frames as it captures the entire frame all at once rather than scanning the frame as with a rolling shutter.

That is just not true, not even slightly true.

 

[Dashmellow]

Well that is clear then, you claim that we will not be seeing global shutters in dashcams any time soon, while I say that rolling shutters may become obsolete for the higher quality sensors in one or two more generations of image sensor:

Given one or two more generations of image sensor, rolling shutter may become obsolete for the higher quality image sensors, there will be no reason to use it when HDR is built into the image sensor itself.

They are not normally used for surveillance cameras, that is what STARVIS was developed for, and that, as we know, uses rolling shutters.

For dashcams we need a Starvis 3 sensor, which isn't available yet, but it is now the next generation, so may not be too far away.

As I've said previously, I find it interesting that you went from claiming that global shutters are almost exclusively used in machine visions systems and denying that global shutters are used in surveillance cameras before going on to state that what we really need in dash cams is the STARVIS 3. But now you assert that global shutters in dash cams are more or less just around the corner.

It will still be some time yet before STARVIS 3 sensors appear in dash cams and if we project forward with your notion of one or more generations of rolling shutter still to come, it will still be quite a few more years before global shutters make their way into dash cams. That will take numerous generations and interim steps itself as high end global shutter sensors currently used in professional video gear make their way into low cost consumer electronics. Global shutters used in video cameras use a variety of complex processing techniques that work in concert with the sensors to achieve what they do, so before global shutters appear in dash cams and other consumer electronics products we will be a new class of low cost SoC DSPs that can support them.

So, yes, I stand by my statement that we "won't be seeing global shutters in dash cams any time soon".

I do concede that global shutters do not eliminate motion blur but motion blur is reduced with global shutters because it eliminates the temporal lag and increased integration time introduced by rolling shutters.

 

[Nigel]

I do concede that global shutters do not eliminate motion blur but motion blur is reduced with global shutters because it eliminates the temporal lag and increased integration time introduced by rolling shutters.

I guess that depends on how you define all your terms, but motion blur as we understand it is definitely not "reduced with global shutters because it eliminates the temporal lag and increased integration time introduced by rolling shutters.", the only thing that is reduced is the motion distortion. Furthermore, integration time is not increased anyway, on a fixed aperture camera such as a dashcam, an increased integration time would result in overexposure, it must remain the same! As for "temporal lag", the time between frames is identical for both rolling and global shutter, the only temporal lag is from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame, which is what causes the motion distortion, it is the disadvantage of rolling shutter, but it does not cause any motion blur since the integration times will be the same for both shutter systems. Motion distortion is not a significant issue for current dashcams, so rolling shutters are fine, not perfect, but not a problem that needs solving.

 

[Dashmellow]

I guess that depends on how you define all your terms, but motion blur as we understand it is definitely not "reduced with global shutters because it eliminates the temporal lag and increased integration time introduced by rolling shutters.", the only thing that is reduced is the motion distortion. Furthermore, integration time is not increased anyway, on a fixed aperture camera such as a dashcam, an increased integration time would result in overexposure, it must remain the same! As for "temporal lag", the time between frames is identical for both rolling and global shutter, the only temporal lag is from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame, which is what causes the motion distortion, it is the disadvantage of rolling shutter, but it does not cause any motion blur since the integration times will be the same for both shutter systems. Motion distortion is not a significant issue for current dashcams, so rolling shutters are fine, not perfect, but not a problem that needs solving.

 

[Dashmellow]

This is kind of interesting as it relates to this discussion.

It's come to my attention that a company now known as ON-Semi, a manufacturer of sophisticated electronics components and CMOS sensors is producing a full line of global shutter sensors. ON-Semi was formerly known as Aptina, a company well known to many dash cam users. They produced the AR0330 1/3" sensor. The Aptina AR0330 sensor was the first sensor that made reasonably priced dash cams viable in lower light. Before that no dash cam offered viable night time performance. The sensor can't hold a candle to today's STARVIS class sensors but in its day it gave a big boost to the dash cam industry and has been seen in many products. The AR0330 is still manufactured and offered by ON-Semi.

The ON-Semi AR0134 and AR0135 sensors are among the first commercially available low cost 1/3" global shutters on the market. (They produce a full line of global and hybrid rolling/global shutters.) So, these are the first global shutters in this size format that are suitable for board cameras and M12 lenses and thus offer the closest parallel to what might eventually end up in a dash cam as these sensors evolve over time. So, the potential for a global shutter dash cam is closer than I thought even if the technology is not there yet.

Arducam, a company that specializes in cameras for the Raspberry Pi platform offers quite a number of monochrome and color global shutter cameras and recently introduced two new ON-Semi global shutter board cameras using ON-Semi's AR0134/ AR0135 and MT9V022/ MT9V034 sensors. The interesting thing is that these are 1/3" sensors designed for use with M12 lenses and appear to be among the first cameras of this size to have global shutters.

For now, these are essentially lower resolution machine vision cameras shooting individual frames but the demonstration is noteworthy because their ability to eliminate rolling shutter effect AND motion blur during high speed capture without the use of any strobe illumination, only a modest sized LED board. They do descibed these USB l/3" sensor Global shutter cams as suitable for surveillance cameras and drone capture.

I still think global shutters in dash cams are sevarl years away at a minimum but the fact that a company with extensive experience designing, manufacturing and marketing sensors for dash cams is now producing 1/3" global shutter sensors designed for use with M12 lenses suggests that they might be the firm to eventually make it happen and this was the reason for posting this.

Global Shutter Camera - Arducam

Most of the DSLR cameras and mobile phone’s cameras are using Rolling Shutter technology including Canon, Nikon, and iPhones, while industry cameras are using Global Shutter technology. Why cameras are so different, let’s take a look at the facts of these two kinds of technology. 卷帘 Rolling...

www.arducam.com

 

[Dashmellow]

License plate capture? Motion Blur? Low light?

 

[kamkar]

Big brother here are putting up more and more cameras, not least plate capture cameras.
The argument are surveillance make you safe and free.
Of course those words are out of the mouth of a social democrat.

Funny thing one of those cameras, always figure as a speed camera on the waze like APP i use on long drives

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Nigel]

Funny thing one of those cameras, always figure as a speed camera on the waze like APP i use on long drives,,,,,, Danes really are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

I didn't know that Google installed speed cameras



Must have a tie up with your government, and provide the cameras in return for you hosting all those data centres and subsidising all the electricity they use!

 

[Dashmellow]

Well, the video isn't about government traffic monitoring really, it's about global shutters and how the technology will eventually end up in dash cams for an unprecedented level of license plate capture even under challenging conditions.

Then again, in the context of this thread, the video puts to rest some of the ridiculous posts that were made here in this thread.

Like this gem:

They (global shutters) are not normally used for surveillance cameras, that is what STARVIS was developed for, and that, as we know, uses rolling shutters.