Dashcam battery on VIOFO A139

[SawMaster]

That is if you fully discharge it to empty and full charge it to full every day, if you have one with decent capacity so that you only discharge it to 50% then you can triple the number of charges and it will die of old age first, they are normally rated for around 15 years.

The oldest I've heard of still in daily use was 12 years. The numbers and specs my posts are about are 'worst case scenario' for the LiFePO4 and not below 50% for L/A which is 'in-spec' for those. Take the 'best case scenario' and the LiFePO4 will do even better in comparison. AGM can be useful and sometimes better, but we're not talking about those uses, only low-draw dashcams, so in our case only the faster charging is an asset.

This whole subject can be fascinating, the vastly different chemistries involved, the various metals used, the separators, charge/discharge slopes and characteristics and more. Once you understand it in-depth you begin to see why manufacturers equip various devices with various technologies and why those are best (or cheaper) for their applications. At this time, LiFePO4 is one of the best but Lithium Titanate (LTO) may be taking it's place soon. Technology marches on

Phil

 

[jokiin]

The oldest I've heard of still in daily use was 12 years.

and have seen Cellink batteries that have failed in under 18 months, there's no one perfect solution and no matter which way you go there are costs to factor in

 

[HonestReview]

and have seen Cellink batteries that have failed in under 18 months, there's no one perfect solution and no matter which way you go there are costs to factor in

I mean a car battery should last 5-7 years. Even if the LifepO4 Cellink lasts the same, there is no "savings". Both a car battery and cell link are about the same price.

Only benefits to a cellink is potential for longer record times. Although my AGM battery seems to do pretty decent.

 

[jokiin]

I mean a car battery should last 5-7 years. Even if the LifepO4 Cellink lasts the same, there is no "savings". Both a car battery and cell link are about the same price.

Only benefits to a cellink is potential for longer record times. Although my AGM battery seems to do pretty decent.

car batteries typically last 5 to 7 years, if you do parking mode on a regular basis expect 2 to 4 for a lead acid or AGM type battery

 

[Nigel]

The oldest I've heard of still in daily use was 12 years. The numbers and specs my posts are about are 'worst case scenario' for the LiFePO4 and not below 50% for L/A which is 'in-spec' for those

Standard car batteries are only designed and really suitable for 5% daily discharge, which is why they are not used for stop-start use. Heavy duty ones should cope with a bit more, but there is a good reason AGM is used for cars with stop-start - the car manufacturers don’t want to have to replace the battery under warranty.

and have seen Cellink batteries that have failed in under 18 months, there's no one perfect solution and no matter which way you go there are costs to factor in

Failed is not necessarily the same as worn out. I guess since they are sudden failures rather than loss of capacity, that they are charging circuit failures, maybe through getting rather hot in your climate, although Cellink do charge rather fast for their cell capacity so they won’t have a huge lifespan anyway, Lithium batteries of all types last much longer with slow charges.

 

[SawMaster]

and have seen Cellink batteries that have failed in under 18 months, there's no one perfect solution and no matter which way you go there are costs to factor in

Nothing comes free except trouble. Cell quality matters here as does how the cells are managed during charging. LiFePO4 packs or banks require periodic balancing to perform best, which isn't done with the simpler battery management systems. These cells are also very strict in their charging temperature limits, particularly cold where just one under-temp charge cycle can ruin them. The better BMS's protect against that. And same as with LiIon, cells there are only a handful of good cell manudacturers making a product where top quality is an absolute must. I'm not sure what is failing in those early-death Neo's but I do know that it shouldn't happen and doesn't reflect on the technology used as much as it does the pack design and manufacturer.

LiFePO4 can be extremely good if done well- anything less than that is unacceptable.

Phil

 

[SawMaster]

car batteries typically last 5 to 7 years, if you do parking mode on a regular basis expect 2 to 4 for a lead acid or AGM type battery

That seems about right for car batteries but I don't have those numbers. I suspect more die near 5 years than 7.

It's hard to quantify when parking mode is factored in, as how that's done matters somewhat but I think it's more about battery size and starting power needed than anything else. A diesel with a smaller battery will not endure as well as a similar-sized gas engine with a larger battery. And of course there's the cut-off voltage used.

Getting more back on topic, it can be expected that a 3-channel system needs more power than a 1-channel, as I've found trying non-Viofo-supplied power sources with my A139. It's the processor consuming the 'lion's share' of power and there's only one of them in any cam, so it's not 3X the power needed, but it does need more, With that being the case, the argument for using an accessory power source for parking mode with this cam becomes somewhat more compelling, but it's still not an absolute necessity for shorter parking times.

Phil

 

[jokiin]

That seems about right for car batteries but I don't have those numbers. I suspect more die near 5 years than 7.

It's hard to quantify when parking mode is factored in, as how that's done matters somewhat but I think it's more about battery size and starting power needed than anything else. A diesel with a smaller battery will not endure as well as a similar-sized gas engine with a larger battery. And of course there's the cut-off voltage used.

usage patterns play a big part, someone that does a 30 minute commute each way to work and has parking mode running day and night is going to get a lot less out of their battery than someone that drives for hours each day and runs parking mode for shorter periods, I've replaced batteries in my vehicles after a few years of use, I don't run parking mode for hours on end but majority of my driving is short trips, 10~15 minutes at a time as my office is close to home and I spend most of my time in the local area, I could easily get by with an electric vehicle, if only they weren't so expensive to buy

 

[kamkar]

Yes EV is a turn off for me too in that sense, and for the fact that if i buy one i have to fight with others over the public chargers, and i have seen on TV that get really ugly.
Okay gooberment here are throwing a lot of tax payer money towards a lot more chargers in public, but i think it is still going to be a issue, not least if i move to a more rural part of Denmark after my mother die.
CUZ the people out there in the sticks, while few and far between, by now it is a de facto rule that they must be screwed over first and screwed the most.

But other than that, i would easy be able to live with a EV.

 

[Kremmen]

EV hasn't been fully thought out yet.

Hopefully by 2030 when some countries are proposing to stop fossil fuel engines the tech will improve enough to reduce 'refuelling'.

The thought of having to break off a long journey for an hours charge is ludicrous. And as you say, that doesn't factor in getting a charger.

 

[Nigel]

EV hasn't been fully thought out yet.

Hopefully by 2030 when some countries are proposing to stop fossil fuel engines the tech will improve enough to reduce 'refuelling'.

The thought of having to break off a long journey for an hours charge is ludicrous. And as you say, that doesn't factor in getting a charger.

As battery capacity gets cheaper, nearly every EV will have enough capacity for 99% of journeys, and a 20 minute stop will add another 200km, you don’t have to fill the tank to complete the journey, most people won’t anyway because refilling at home/base is much cheaper.

 

[jokiin]

As battery capacity gets cheaper, nearly every EV will have enough capacity for 99% of journeys, and a 20 minute stop will add another 200km, you don’t have to fill the tank to complete the journey, most people won’t anyway because refilling at home/base is much cheaper.

Quote from one of the manufacturers

e-platform 3.0 “the cradle of the next generation of electric vehicles.” It allows parameters like 2.9-second 0-100 km/h acceleration time, a 1,000 km range, and rapid-charging at a level powerful enough to gain a 150 km range in just five minutes

Not sure how far off this is but advances like this will certainly make them much more attractive to the average user

concerns like how many charging stations, where you can charge them etc will no doubt be taken care of once they're needed, building out infrastructure for a market size that doesn't exist yet doesn't make commercial sense, I'm sure it will grow as and when needed

 

[Nigel]

Not sure how far off this is but advances like this will certainly make them much more attractive to the average user

The average car does not require both that range and that rapid charging, and since price increases with capacity and with speed of charging, I doubt there is going to be much demand for both 1000km range and 150km/five minutes. You can't install a charger that quick off a normal power supply, and it would require some very heavy cabiling in the car/connectors/charging cable, so only the major highways and commercial vehicles will have charging that rapid. We will end up with a compromise that depends on the price/size of the available battery technology, maybe batteries will get so good that highway charging will not be required, more likely most cars will have a range of around 500km depending on car size, and around a 10 minute/100km charge rate.

For commercial vehicles, fuel cells still look a sensible approach, so maybe there won't be any very rapid battery chargers.

Adding a fuel cell to a battery vehicle may be a sensible range extending option, then you can recharge as you travel if you have a long journey and not bother otherwise, only needs a small fuel cell since it only has to produce average power, not peak power for acceleration, doesn't even need to produce average power since it can continue operating while you are stopped on breaks and only needs to ensure you don't run out of battery power before the end of the journey.

Maybe some international standards/targets will be laid down at the climate change summit summit this year? Definitely time things started to get standardised, so that vehicles from one country can recharge in the next, not always the case at the moment!

 

[SawMaster]

I'm sure it will grow as and when needed

I understand your logic, but I respectfully disagree. To enable even a large scale not-near-universal usage of grid-charged EV's will require a near-total and massive overhaul and upgrading of our power grid while adding massive generating capacity, which cannot occur without great cost and enough time to implement it. We'll need huge increases in generating, transmission, and distribution capacities to achieve this right down to feeding every home, which will happen in time but not in the time-frame being discussed here. I don't see it as possible until at least 40 years from now unless we're willing to accept a huge increase in our electricity costs immediately, rendering the EV economically detrimental to such a degree that nobody but the rich can afford to operate them. The average person will be paying so much for non-automotive electricity that they won't be able to buy an EV, much less run it. And anything which gets transported on the road- essentially everything- will have the increased transportation costs passed down to the consumer too.

And as long as something remains highly uneconomical to the people, the general population will not buy it or use it. Only affordable things go into general use.

Neither can this be brought about by governmental decree. To do that means most of the world would now have to buy cars they already cannot afford, coupled with the increased powering costs, coming from a home budget devastated by the grid-improvement costs. Governments can't absorb the costs without raising taxes or printing more money which has the same effect.

The only way this can happen is to stretch the massive costs involved over a long enough period of time (hence my 40 year prediction), and during that time we will just have to live with whatever affordable transportation alternatives we have available regardless of the effect on the planet. It will happen, but not as quickly as many people seem to think because nothing is free of charge except trouble

Phil

 

[Nigel]

To enable even a large scale not-near-universal usage of grid-charged EV's will require a near-total and massive overhaul and upgrading of our power grid while adding massive generating capacity, which cannot occur without great cost and enough time to implement it. We'll need huge increases in generating, transmission, and distribution capacities to achieve this right down to feeding every home, which will happen in time but not in the time-frame being discussed here. I don't see it as possible until at least 40 years from now...

I listened to a radio interview with our UK national grid yesterday and he implied that our grid is already capable. I believe there are actually a few issues to sort, but he did make a few interesting points to support his view.

“We think our peak in the evening could go up by about 10% due to EV charging, but we still have plenty of spare capacity to cope with that.” - Graeme Cooper, National Grid

Main point is that for people to get very cheap EV charging power at home they need to install a dedicated EV charging point, which doesn't cost too much. The grid and generating capacity only needs to support peak power, most EV charging will be done via EV charging points which only charge off peak, normally overnight when the grid and generating capacity is at reduced load, in fact the commercial price of UK electricity often goes negative at night, largely due to excess Wind power and French Nuclear power which has to be disposed of! For people who only need a full charge once a week, their charging point can choose a time when there is plenty of spare wind power that would otherwise not get used, or turned into hydrogen. The smart grid will even be able to store power in low use cars at times of spare capacity and then transfer it to local high use cars when needed during times of insufficient generating capacity or insufficient trunk grid capacity in return for even lower cost for the person supplying the storage.

"We can probably cope to about 80% EV penetration just with smart charging," - Graeme Cooper, National Grid

We are gradually installing a grid of long distance HVDC cables to efficiently transfer power around the country, mainly because when the wind blows in the north there is often not enough wind in the south, or the other way around, sometimes it comes from France, or Ireland, or Norway. These are expensive cables, but often provide some very cheap power.

 

[SawMaster]

It's not like that everywhere Nigel. Much of the US is at near-capacity now under normal conditions, and thus cannot supoport an added load. Texas and California have exceeded their capacity now, and Cali regularly exceeds all the capacity they can bring in from elsewhere too. Most of our grid was and is done commercially, with little extra capacity built in so as to maximize profits; upgrades happen only when and where necessary. And a lot of what we have is old and overdue for replacement, especially in rural areas. Where I lived 4 years ago in a large city, the transformers on the poles feeding the houses were installed no later than the early 1960's and they and the wires feeding them are only capable of sustaining power levels at the house of half what is the minimum requirement for new construction. Even off peak, that neighborhood hasn't got the capacity to charge many EV's, and this is typical of many, many thousands of older communities here in the US. The very thing Jokiin thinks will rise up to meet the demand will first have to be entirely re-done at costs greater than the utility companies can absorb or have planned for. Raised prices will be needed to pay for that.

In my old neighborhood the official approach was to replace things only as needed and no more, as no money was made available for anything better. The estimated cost per house to modernize the system and allow for the future forseeable needs was about $500 per year forever which would have left a lot of people unable to pay, and therefore homeless as that was one of the last affordable places to live in that town. Economics almost entirely alone drives almost everything, and at least here in the US the economics of a fast transition to EV's is simply impossible.

In our case, the Earth will simply have to wait; hopefully it will last that long. We really should have started down this path sooner but we can't fix that now.

Phil

 

[Nigel]

Most of our grid was and is done commercially

As with most transport infrastructure, it is difficult to have sensible competition on running the grid itself, but competition for upgrades and for generating capacity can easily be made competitive and work well. If it is not working then it will be a political failure, not a commercial failure.

Where I lived 4 years ago in a large city, the transformers on the poles feeding the houses were installed no later than the early 1960's

We don't have transformers on poles here, at least not in the way you do, don't understand your system.

In our case, the Earth will simply have to wait; hopefully it will last that long. We really should have started down this path sooner but we can't fix that now.

Here, not only is the grid already nearly capable, but the cost of powering EVs is less per mile than fossil fueled vehicles, if you ignore the initial cost of the batteries (another cost that is rapidly dropping). With the cost of off peak EV electricity dropping due to off peak coming increasingly from offshore wind, which is our cheapest source of power, especially off peak, it makes economic sense to make the change, it is not a huge extra cost. As our older power generation shuts down and is replaced by wind, off peak power is getting much cheaper, and it is much cheaper to build new wind than new nuclear which is the other source of cheap off peak power. Possibly in a few years time, the demand for green hydrogen will use up all our off peak spare power capacity and the cheap EV electricity will disappear, but for now it is mainly the cost of the batteries that is holding EVs back, followed by many people using on street overnight parking at home which doesn't currently have access to cheap overnight charging.

 

[mentadent]

There was the idea years ago to use idle EV batteries as a smart grid buffer but whatever load of waffle.

 

[mentadent]

I resolved to just put the money for a Cellilink to new car battery fund

 

[Nigel]

There was the idea years ago to use idle EV batteries as a smart grid buffer but whatever load of waffle.

That is still an idea and may come, although I'm not convinced that it is a good idea since it will wear peoples batteries out over time and won't be very efficient storage. Better to harvest battery packs out of scrap EVs and build them into huge battery banks, doesn't matter if they only have 50% capacity left, although it may well be cheaper just to manufacture new packs! We are gradually building grid scale battery banks around the country:

With renewables producing a record 41% of Britain’s energy mix in 2020, the challenge of balancing the grid has become ever more present, and batteries are stepping up to the plate. In the UK, there is currently a pipeline of just over 14GW of storage projects, and around 1.2GW of operational projects, according to research from Solar Media Market Research. Of this, around 7.5GW already has planning permission. This has grown dramatically in recent years, with the pipeline jumping from just 2.3GW in 2017.

Piecing together the ‘jigsaw of value’ in UK energy storage

With a project pipeline in excess of 14GW, a developing regulatory envelope and maturing revenue streams, the UK’s energy storage sector continues to be at the forefront globally. Molly Lempriere charts the market’s development to date and uncovers how it has responded to deployment barriers.

www.energy-storage.news