Dual-camera bicycle setup

[Dan Robinson]

I've been researching dual camera (front+rear) solutions for use on my bicycle, and so far coming up frustratingly short. The most promising setup I've seen so far is the Viofo MT1 covered by Nigel here:

Viofo MT1 Dual Motorcycle dashcam on a Bicycle

The Viofo MT1 is a Dual Motorcycle Dashcam, so I installed it on my bicycle, excellent results, but a few issues to note: The MT1 runs on 12 volts, 9 volts minimum, not sure what the maximum is, but probably over 24 since most hardwire kits work with 24 volt truck batteries (needs checking when...

dashcamtalk.com

However, it appears this system is brand new (still working out bugs) and not widely available at least in the USA. Power is also an issue, necessitating DIY voltage adapter for a USB power bank for bicycle use.

My rides average 2 hours with some all-day rides up to 6 hours, and I need something that will last the entire ride in both battery and recording time. Up to this point I've been using an old GoPro Hero 3+. With a 64gb card I can record the full day rides, but the internal battery only last about 90 minutes. So, I started using a USB battery pack to power the camera, which offers more than sufficient battery life for the all day rides. There is a big problem though: if the USB cable to the battery pack becomes severed or disconnected, the GoPro powers off without shutting down, and the current video file is lost. I suffered a hard crash on my bike in 2017, and the footage was lost because of this. So, this setup will be of no use in the event of an accident.

I thought of switching from the GoPro to an actual dashcam, powered with a USB battery pack, would be a good solution. But, the issue is that it appears that few if any of these can be natively powered via USB without some type of complicated DIY voltage regulator/adapter. Then there is the issue of weatherproofing, car cameras are not suitable at all for outside use.

The issue of loop recording is not as important with a bike camera. While loop recording would be nice, to me it's not a big deal to simply format the card before every ride. So in that sense, two older model GoPros would work fine for me if I could solve the USB power cutoff vulnerability.

I've looked at the purpose-built bicycle cams (like the Cycliq), but in all truthfulness the high number of negative reviews and problems reported for all of those has made me shy away from them. Hoping for some insights here.

 

[kamkar]

I recon you could use any motorcycle camera on the bicycle too, but of course you would have to use some power bank for power.
The systems dont have EIS as action cameras have it, so for riding dirt trails i would not recommend a system like this but rather stay with the action cameras.

You do need it from the cycling conditions i have seen in the US, and the motorists not really schooled to handle such things.
Much safer to pedal around in Denmark as our cycling culture go back to ww1 and the infrastructure to as safe as possible to accommodate cyclists have been developed since the 50ties.

 

[Nigel]

The 12V hasn't been an issue for me on the MT1, and you can buy USB to 12V converters that just plug in. I prefer the USB PD route, it is neater and less likely to get unplugged, but the simple cheap USB to 12V worked perfectly well when I tested it.
The MT1 does have super capacitor backup for saving the last file and shutting down if it becomes unplugged or the powerbank empties.

However, it appears this system is brand new (still working out bugs) and not widely available at least in the USA.

Should be changing very soon, and presumably it will be available from places that stock Viofo dashcams. It worked pretty well without significant bugs from the first version, but there was a complicated issue with the lenses which has now been solved. Biggest issue I had was changing the view on the wifi live view, but that didn't stop it recording.

Action cameras are not properly waterproof if they are plugged into power which has always worried me on a bicycle, but I am in UK. I don't need to worry with the MT1.

Other motorcycle cams should be OK too, I have used a cheap Blueskysea one that worked fine, but the MT1 definitely has the superior image quality.

I've never actually tried a bicycle cam, neither the specs or reviews have ever impressed me.

Lack of EIS is probably the biggest issue for a lot of people, you do need a good mount, but with a good mount it is OK even off road.

 

[SawMaster]

Dan, any motorcycle cam and appropriate powerbank will work equally well for a bicycle too. The problem is that right now we really don't have any truly reliable and decent motorcycle cams which is why Viofo is addressing this market segment now.

If you can't wait till someone gets this right, then I would suggest you try a pair of the old original Mobius cams. Even though their technology is quite dated they are as rugged and reliable as dash and action cams get. If you do choose this way, do be sure to use something to prevent them from flying out of their supplied mounting sleeve in an impact. You'll have to get creative to mount it all but you have those skills in quantity so this can work for you.

Alternately check with any local cycling club and see what those folks use. Most cyclists here use either a GoPro or variant of them, turning them off when they think it safe to do so to save battery time, and changing to fresh batteries as needed. Not a good solution really but better than nothing and at least they know what they're getting.

Phil

 

[Dan Robinson]

the simple cheap USB to 12V worked perfectly well when I tested it.

Thanks for that link, good to know that something that simple will work. I'm willing to wait on the Viofo as it seems like it's the solution that would solve all of my issues. Are there any places that will ship one to the US right now? I'm not in a huge hurry, but if there is one out there I'd probably jump on it.

Judging from the Cycliq, it appears there is a growing market for cycling cams, interesting to see how this field will evolve.

 

[Nigel]

Can only go on what Viofo wrote in the other thread last month:

The newly updated lens is available, so we will release MT1 again next month.

Which of course means this month now, but currently it seems still out of stock.

For some reason many cyclists don't seem to care about cameras, either because they are the sort of people who worry about adding 5 grams in weight and believe they are indestructible, or they prefer action cameras because they are doing action sports, or they expect the cameras to get stolen. Hopefully some better bicycle cameras will appear given time, and maybe with some encouragement Viofo will produce a "BC1"?

 

[Leonauto]

I thought of switching from the GoPro to an actual dashcam, powered with a USB battery pack, would be a good solution. But, the issue is that it appears that few if any of these can be natively powered via USB without some type of complicated DIY voltage regulator/adapter.

There is no problem connecting power for dashcams from USB. You can use Powerbank for trips, the only thing that you will need the capacity for sure is about 20,000mAh
Typically, the current consumption of dashcam when recording is an average of 0.3-0.4 A

 

[SawMaster]

Most but not all dashcams use 5VDC power through a mini-USB or USB-C port. The 12V models and those using other plug/socket arrangements are not very common.

Phil

 

[kamkar]

There is a wide range of the barrel style plug the 12 V cameras use, if my grey goo serve me right the barrel plugs start at 2.1 or 2.6 mm and then go up in increments, and the largest ones are probably something like 8 mm.
They are standardized but there are many to choose from, on the USB side we just have mini and micro and now lately USB - C

12V cameras at least in dashcams are still very much a minority.

 

[Nigel]

There is a wide range of the barrel style plug the 12 V cameras use, if my grey goo serve me right the barrel plugs start at 2.1 or 2.6 mm and then go up in increments, and the largest ones are probably something like 8 mm.
They are standardized but there are many to choose from, on the USB side we just have mini and micro and now lately USB - C

12V cameras at least in dashcams are still very much a minority.

Good point, the MT1 just has wires, normally for attaching to a fuse tap, so you either chop the 12V plug off, or add a matching 12V socket to the MT1.

 

[SawMaster]

Dang, I forgot about the Blueskysea DV988 LINK
New model motorcycle cam. Not sure but it might be 'evolved' from the older DV688 which had some issues. Being so new I've not heard anything about it pro or con, but it's manufacturer is here on DCT and is pretty good with support and service.

Phil

 

[viofo]

Dan, any motorcycle cam and appropriate powerbank will work equally well for a bicycle too. The problem is that right now we really don't have any truly reliable and decent motorcycle cams which is why Viofo is addressing this market segment now.

If you can't wait till someone gets this right, then I would suggest you try a pair of the old original Mobius cams. Even though their technology is quite dated they are as rugged and reliable as dash and action cams get. If you do choose this way, do be sure to use something to prevent them from flying out of their supplied mounting sleeve in an impact. You'll have to get creative to mount it all but you have those skills in quantity so this can work for you.

Alternately check with any local cycling club and see what those folks use. Most cyclists here use either a GoPro or variant of them, turning them off when they think it safe to do so to save battery time, and changing to fresh batteries as needed. Not a good solution really but better than nothing and at least they know what they're getting.

Phil

We are thinking to develop a ride camera for a long time, maybe something new like GitUp F1.

 

[Nigel]

We are thinking to develop a ride camera for a long time, maybe something new like GitUp F1.

A 2K IMX335 (A119 V3 sensor) camera like the Gitup F1 but with 6 hour battery life, fully waterproof, with wireless charging to maintain waterproofing, and eMMC so we don't need to break the waterproofing to put the memory card in, and more secure bicycle mounting, maybe with a strong magnet so that it is easily removable at the end of the ride, and EIS....

 

[SawMaster]

We are thinking to develop a ride camera for a long time, maybe something new like GitUp F1.

The form-factor of the F1 or Mobius cams will be the best fit on a bike. And Nigel just posted with some very good thoughts on this. I'm not so sure about EMMC though- admittedly I don't know a lot about it but if it raised prices too much the usual SD card method might be better. You'd still need to access files, how would they be done with EMMC? If it requires plugging in a cable then there's still a waterproofing issue for the needed cable socket. And to maintain waterproofing with a card slot would be simple by covering the end of the cam with a rubber cap, as the usual types or rubber plugs found for such things just don't work well as time and wear happens or as they get lost.

A shout-out to the riders here:
What do you think of a tubular battery which could be mounted on any frame rail? Would that be a better form-factor than the usual boxy kind? Perhaps even having the cam's hardware box there too with remote lenses? I'd think that something like this might be an ideal solution with it not being in the way of anything else and being fully within the frame area, thus not adding to the wind-resistance profile or interfering with riding. Just a thought from my sometimes too-active imagination

Phil

 

[Nigel]

What do you think of a tubular battery which could be mounted on any frame rail?

A tubular MT1 might be nice, but there is also a requirement for many people that they can remove the cameras when they park the bike in a poorly secured bicycle parking area, which means zero cables. With the F1 you can do this, although the mount seems not secure enough for bicycle use, it may fall off when going over a pot hole.

 

[kamkar]

A bike camera should have a 18650 battery, preferably a replaceable one, this will give the user 3500 - 4000 MAH in one battery.
Battery and SD card slot should be under the same screw in plug, with a larger durable O-ring to seal it ( 1.5 - 2 mm thick O-ring )

So this mean the plug should be 20 mm or so fine thread, but the overall OD of the plug should probably be 25 mm if you have the sealing O-ring at the bacl of the thread so you need something on the plug to clamp down on the O-ring to make it seal.
So the end product should be something like 35 - 40 MM in diameter and 100 MM long.
I remember Rollei made a bullet camera a while back, looked like a 30 mm bullet or something.

I am not sure of the 100 % round shape, maybe it should be D shaped, so you had a flat surface to mount off.

 

[Nigel]

I am not sure of the 100 % round shape, maybe it should be D shaped, so you had a flat surface to mount off.

Although I quite like that idea, it seems not good for wireless charging. My toothbrush is that shape and does charge wirelessly, but doesn't succeed in charging using my phone charger, needs a flatter design for charging from a normal flat phone charger. Also, my bike lights are a flatter design, the tube shape does not seem fashionable at the moment, good for waterproofing using o-rings, but with wireless charging you don't need o-rings that can work with opening it up for charging every day.

 

[Dan Robinson]

A lot of the action cameras would work fine if not for the short internal battery life. I'd assume any action cam would have the same problems as the GoPro: short internal battery life, and video file loss if the connection to an external battery pack is severed during a crash. I suppose I could try some super reinforced cabling, but in my crash, the battery pack itself came apart with the parts strewn across the road. Trouble is most of those probably are not designed to be very crashworthy like a GoPro is.

 

[kamkar]

No a round or something along those lines shape will be bad for wireless charging, but if the entry way to replacing battery and memory card are durable i dont think you need wireless charging.
Of course you will have to charge the batteries outside of the camera as it would be problematic to also have a USB or other port for in camera charging.

That was the best thing about the first digital gopro camera, that it had 2 AAA batteries you could replace, today i feel like a 18650 replaceable battery should be the norm in action cameras, that may make the cameras ever so little larger than current models, but i think that should be fine too, it is rare i have heard people say their conventional action camera was too large.
The action cameras should also have just 2 opening, the 2 openings for cameras like gopro 8 and my osmo action are just silly and to be honest i have no trust in them being waterproof, and it seem that's also often the case they are not.
A nice screw in lid / plug to cap off the opening i feel are much better than hinged or latched lids like on the 2 brands i mentioned above.
My osmo action on the screw on lens protector / waterproof cap on the lens, the O-rings are really small like 1 MM or less, i have no trust in those, not least if you often replace the stock lens cap with ND filters or CPL like i use.
I really like to see waterproofing seals i can see with the naked eye, and are large / more durable, 1 MM O-rings are something i would be fine with in a watch which you only work with maybe once every 2 years and under more sanitary conditions, but a camera that you often "take apart" in the field i feel must be stronger than that.

When i go camping or just into the forest at night with a flashlight ( or two ) i always bring 4 spare batteries, it is very rare i need them but they are there and while four 18650 are heavy in a pocket in my backpack i dont feel them at all.
carrying a single extra 18650 battery on your cycle trip i recon will be fine too, unless you are one of those guys that think every gram count as if you are a top ranked pedal pusher, me i have never owned such lightweight cycle frames as i have just been a happy go lucky pedal pusher.
And i dident wear spandex, cuz only professionals should do that, besides spandex was barely invented in the late 70ties when i did the bulk of my cycling, so i always had a open pocket for a repair kit in case i got a flat, today i see you can get little "fanny" packs to attach to your saddle
And back then you strapped your feet into the pedals VS today where you have to use silly shoes and click in, as a happy go lucky pedal pusher i would never use that click in stuff, a pair or regular sneakers and strap in pedals should be fine for a regular guy cyclist doing 50 - 100 miles in a day.

Like in motorsports, in cycle racing the guys of old was better, just wrap a spare tire ASO over your shoulders jump on your iron horse, and off you go.
leave those razor thin glue on tires to the professionals just like wearing spandex and click in pedals, get yourself some regular tires maybe Kevlar reinforced and get out there and clock some miles / KM

 

[SawMaster]

Mobius has proved a crash-resistant cam cam be made, and having a small built-in LiPo or supercaps solves the 'close and save the last file' problem in a crash, just like dashcams do. It's the 185650 cells @kamkar1 mentioned which got me thinking about a tubular battery pack; lots of power in a compact and relatively cheap package. Larger and smaller diameters are just as easily done, and if cell connections are made with metal strips, the pack could be somewhat bendable between cells allowing flush attachment to curved frame sections. Could have a "u" shaped side to hug frame rails better, and could be retained with rubber straps or 'ty-wraps' for a more permanent install then charged in-place. Needn't be very big (according to which battery type is used) and could even be done with primary-type non-rechargable batteries although I doubt that anyone would prefer those. The only issue I can see here is that tubular cells have the wrong voltage, so either a boot converter would be necessary (single-cell and parallel layout) or a buck cionverter with cells used in series. These converters aren't highly efficient electrically but adding a cell (or using a high-spec converter) would solve this problem.

The cam processor hardware could be fit into this package, and remote cam modules used to plug into this. There would be cabling to run, and the cam module(s) could be 'bolt-on' to deter theft, or clipped on to make removal easier. Maybe the front cam could also be part of the battery pack, offset to one side to see past the gooseneck. Possibly on a small 'arm' ahead of the pack to allow the lens to be farther forward for a better view. This arrangement would require the system be mounted to the top rail or downtube only and as far forward as possible, but usually one or the other has space for this even with water bottles or tire pumps mounted (or those could be moved a bit). Possibly it could be handlebar mounted but I think that far less optimum for view and crash-vulnerability. If done this way with an integral cam, front coverage and quick attachment/removal should be great. A remote rear cam could be plugged into this, but again quick-detach might be a problem. Still, this would leave only the cam module and wiring behind if you took the rest off which would be relatively cheap if you had to replace a stolen one.

If we can solidify an idea and have a lot of cyclists agreeing, then perhaps we could approach one of the many dashcam manufacturers here on DCT and ask if they could build such a thing. If we could show them where it would a systems which cyclists would buy in favor of the solutions they have now, I think someone might just build it Most (or all) of the hardware like PCB's and CMOS boards, remote cam modules and boost or buck converters for the batteries already exists in sizes and shapes which could work well here, leaving only the case design and it's attachment scheme as new parts to create molds and tooling for, so their development costs would be fairly small compared to an entirely new cam design.

It is certainly clear that there is already something of a market for a better cycle cam with longer runtimes, and if enough people would buy it then I'm sure someone would build it. I don't have a lot of contact with the cycling world anymore but i will ask around as the opportunity to do so happens. If others here do the same we can get a feel for the marketability and see where we can go from there. And always open to everyone's thoughts on design as I'm not cycling anymore so your ideas could be better then mine.

Phil