Linus tech tips on dashcams.

[Dashmellow]

$18 should get you a reasonable quality seat heater, but not the installation.

Of course, if it is fitted during seat manufacture then $18 fitted is a lot more than manufacturing costs, decent profit for the manufacturer.

So what does the $18 per month pay for, do they supply the fuel?

I did specify that I was talking about, "heated seats you ordered when you purchased your car", but even if they were installed after market, once you pay for the installation it is yours. Paying for a permanent subscription for a component seems like a money grab to me. It's a product not a service. It would be like paying a subscription for an aftermarket FM radio you had installed.

 

[kamkar]

well in Denmark you sort of do that "DM"

So if you have any devise with a faster than 300 kbit data connection or have a radio or a TV, you are pressed to pay for the public service radio & TV here, same go if you buy a radio or a TV, the seller report you and " hey presto" a bill drop in your door.
Though ! this is now changed and everyone de facto pay for the public service radio & TV VIA the taxes.

I of course dont watch that public service channel, but as i have a smart phone and a computer too i could do that, then i am forced to pay for the garbage ( really poor and socialist biassed reporters ) that Public service channel get paid 4 billion DKkr a year

 

[Dashmellow]

well in Denmark you sort of do that "DM"

So if you have any devise with a faster than 300 kbit data connection or have a radio or a TV, you are pressed to pay for the public service radio & TV here, same go if you buy a radio or a TV, the seller report you and " hey presto" a bill drop in your door.
Though ! this is now changed and everyone de facto pay for the public service radio & TV VIA the taxes.

I of course dont watch that public service channel, but as i have a smart phone and a computer too i could do that, then i am forced to pay for the garbage ( really poor and socialist biassed reporters ) that Public service channel get paid 4 billion DKkr a year

That doesn't sound fun. Here over the airwaves TV or radio is usually "free" and paid for through advertisements and the radio frequency spectrum is purchased by different industries though auctions depending on their needs.

Perhaps I need to come up with a better analogy. In any event, how does a car seat heater need a monthly subscription? It's not even something you would use all the time.

 

[Vortex Radar]

So I just finished up a second followup video taking a look at police ALPR systems, how they're designed, how they're different than dashcams, and what it would take for our consumer grade dashcam to do something similar.

It is possible to freeze plates better than our current dashcams are able to, but it would require a different camera design.

Also shoutouts to @Dashmellow and @TonyM in this video.

 

[Dashmellow]

Very interesting video @Vortex Radar! You bring up a range of fascinating topics in visiting this idea. In fact, this could make for a whole thread in and of itself. As you mention, some of us have been experimenting with aftermarket telephoto and zoom lenses and dual focal length cameras for quite some time with some remarkable results. As far as I know, every one of us who started experimenting with telephoto lenses on secondary dash cams years ago is still using them after all this time because once you experience the results there's just no going back to a single wide angle camera.

As for creating a viable single unit dash camera with both a wide angle and telephoto lens as you postulate in your video, I don't think it would need to be all that difficult or expensive. It may not be the ultimate license plate camera but I can tell you from experience that it could be highly effective.

I proposed such an idea four years ago based on off-the-shelf technology, that with some tweaks and proper lens selection could make for an interesting product. I especially like the concept of a single front facing camera with a small secondary telephoto camera on a short cable. I'd love to see it finally happen.

June 6, 2018

Now that we have viable high quality dual channel dash cams, the chipset technology already exists to build a dual focal length front facing dash cam. All that needs to happen is to get rid of the cable and relocate the remote cam module to the front camera housing and engineer the best telephoto into it. Or it could be a base cam with a short cabled front facing telephoto with flexible positioning and aiming.

I predict such a product may yet come about.

Speaking of a secondary camera on a short cable, I'm thinking that with a little DIY work and a short HDMI-to-HDMI adapter cable you could create a viable, permanent dual focal length front camera with the Nextbase you used for your demonstration in the video. This cable would allow you to to have the rear camera facing forward. 1080p may not be optimal but it is indeed viable.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/B08TZRJDLN

 

[Vortex Radar]

So someone on that video commented that there already exists a dashcam designed this way, the UltraDash Z3 Standard Edition. Has anyone ever tried it?

https://amzn.to/3cOuaph

It is a dual 1080p dashcam with one front facing wide angle and a second front facing telephoto for $150.

I didn’t know it existed so I just ordered one. I’m curious how well it fares, how it does without image stabilization, how it handles motion blur day and night, as well as overexposure from headlights at night.

 

[Dashmellow]

I've seen some examples of dual focal length cameras going back many years but none of them have been very good. Don't know about the one in your link though. Generally, these Chinese generic cams are not worth the money even if the concept is good.

Here's one from many years ago.
EDIT: I don't even know how this one worked because it was from back in the day, long before dual channel SoC processors existed.

 

[Dashmellow]

I’m curious how well it fares, how it does without image stabilization

Those of us who've put telephoto lenses on dash cams have generally not found any significant need for image stabilization as you can see in some of the examples presented in @TonyM's Mobius Telephoto thread.
@Harsh has posted many excellent examples such as these two I'll post below, but you'll find many other fascinating clips in the thread of road scenes and conditions in Delhi, India.

After much experimentation and plenty of discussion we came to the consensus that lenses between 8mm and 12mm in focal length offered the most optimal telephoto magnification with the least amount of vibration (virtually none much of the time or at least quite tolerable in most situations, actually). Eventually, most of us gravitated towards the 8mm end of the spectrum as our favorites which of course have even less propensity for vibrations. Also, one of the keys to good image quality with telephoto lenses is to have a rock solid mounting system otherwise you could experience some jello effect and indeed some vibration.

Oh, another thing we haven't discussed yet is the issue of enhanced low light performance. Along with telephoto lenses some of us spent a lot of time experimenting with ultra wide aperture "Starlight" lenses (ƒ/1.2) and wider. These lenses can transform low light and night time performance, especially on a camera like the Mobius that is not usually well suited for night shooting. It often felt as if the Mobius had a whole different sensor installed. Anyway, this is a whole different topic entirely but one well worth exploring. @dirkzelf got the ball rolling with his initial experiments in his Original Mobius night recording with 4mm ~ F1.2 lens (!) thread.

8mm

12mm

 

[Lothar]

Subscription fees make sense only for things that require continuous support. For example the Tesla Premium Connectivity. Renting built in hardware features like heated seats is insane.

Many cars already have built in cameras. In the US, all new cars are required to have a back up camera. Many have an equivalent parking camera in the front. Some adaptive cruise control systems use a stereo pair of cameras on either side of the center rear view mirror. For these cars it would not take much to add a dashcam capability.

Tesla already does this. Any dash cam is better than no dash cam, but you will see from my profile that I find Tesla's dashcam inadequate, and have supplemented it with two Viofo 129 pro cameras. The shortcomings of Tesla's dashcams are as follows:
No sound recording. you can't read out license plates to cover for when the camera can't capture the plate.
Low resolution video and extreme compression. These cameras were designed for AI driving, not capturing license plates.
Low priority task in system. During an accident, the computers can get so busy that they run out of processing power and drop low priority tasks, so the critical seconds of video can be missed.
Unreliable. Tesla's computers can be picky about the memory they will talk to. Sometimes they will decide to stop talking to memory that was working fine in the past. Sometimes the car just fails to record for no apparent reason.
Still, I'd rather have the teslacam running than not.

I do think car manufacturers should build dashcams into their cars. I don't expect them to be good dash cams, but again any dashcam is better than no dashcam.

1.) Tesla is the pioneer of this subscription fee nonsense through OTA updates and everyone simply started copying it in other areas.
Example: Tesla sells 2 vehicles that use the exact same battery at 2 different prices. The only difference is that the battery/range is "software" limited by Tesla. Giving the battery is exactly the same except being software limited, you already paid for the hardware.
Not sure if this is still the case now, but I know this was the case in the early Tesla days. There was only one battery SKU, for both short range and long range models. The only difference was an artificial OTA limitation imposed by Tesla just like BMW with their heated seats subscription issue.

2.) Thanks for sharing Tesla's dashcam limitations and it's good that you also supplemented it with other dashcams.
BMW has their own dashcam version and below were the limitations: (I test drove both a BMW and an Audi SUV December 2020)...Needless to say, I was disappointed in their overrated "German" engineering and decided to settle for a Mazda CX-5.

• Does not record audio.
• Poor video quality/resolution, poor night performance. Not good enough for capturing license plates even in the daytime.
• It can't record more than 40 seconds (20 seconds before impact/accident and 20 seconds after), doesn't matter if you provide it with infinite storage or not.
• You can manually start a recording and make it record but again it is limited to 40 seconds...20 seconds prior to you pressing the button and 20 seconds after pressing the button.
• It only keeps the last 10 recordings (10 x 40 seconds limitation above = 400 seconds or 6.66 minutes of total recording) before it starts overwriting itself.
• No parking mode recording (meaning the engine must be ON for it to work).
• Lack of display of time and position on video.
• Requires a subscription (monthly/annual) despite the hardware already being present in the car (Again this is a OTA server side switch...The cameras are already on the car when purchased and you paid for them already)

3.) Some of them already do with all their cars. BMW hides theirs behind a paywall for example as I described above, so just requiring car manufacturers to build dashcams into their cars won't mean anything if they put it behind a paywall and require a monthly/annual subscription to turn on or enable the feature. Those automotive dashcam systems have so many shortcomings that it maybe good enough for a Kia or Hyundai Elantra, but definitely not something in a BMW or Audi that I would be paying subscription for, nor overpaying for the hardware when I can get dashcams that have much better features without much effort.

 

[Lothar]

In any event, how does a car seat heater need a monthly subscription? It's not even something you would use all the time.

The automaker will argue...That's the benefit of a subscription. You only subscribe when you need it (such as Nov-Feb). If you live in parts of Alaska or Canada where winter is 8 out of 12 months of the year, then you only subscribe for 8-10 months.
Of course pretty soon they might start charging for ventilated seats as well which might require a separate subscription for the summer months(May-Sept). If you live in a desert, then you will need coverage for 8-12 months of the year!

But seriously though...BMW hides other things behind paywalls besides heated seats. The vehicles are equipped with the necessary hardware at the factory with a software block preventing them from being functional. That block can be removed over the air once the monthly or annual subscription fee has been paid.

• Their dashcam recorder feature I detailed in my above post.
• Advanced driver assistance (ADAS) features like High Beam Assistant (which brightens or dims the headlights depending on traffic).
• Real-time traffic alerts and Navigation map updates (I'm surprised people are still paying for this when Google/Apple/Waze are better, just like people still pay $500-$2,000 for navigation map on a CD or MicroSD card from an automaker).
• Active Cruise Control (ACC) driver assistance system with Stop & Go function
• Adaptive M Suspension
• This is from the same company that charged it's users for Apple CarPlay and Android Auto that is already installed in their cars...

Why You Might Need to Subscribe to Get Certain Features on Your Next Car - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports explains why you might need to subscribe to get certain features on your next car, noting that some automakers plan to charge fees for some features.

www.consumerreports.org

Read this interesting article from Consumer Reports...at least five OEMs – Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, and Tesla – were rolling out a subscription model for certain options in certain markets for features that are already installed on the car.

 

[Dashmellow]

The automaker will argue...That's the benefit of a subscription. You only subscribe when you need it (such as Nov-Feb). If you live in parts of Alaska or Canada where winter is 8 out of 12 months of the year, then you only subscribe for 8-10 months.
Of course pretty soon they might start charging for ventilated seats as well which might require a separate subscription for the summer months(May-Sept). If you live in a desert, then you will need coverage for 8-12 months of the year!

But seriously though...BMW hides other things behind paywalls besides heated seats. The vehicles are equipped with the necessary hardware at the factory with a software block preventing them from being functional. That block can be removed over the air once the monthly or annual subscription fee has been paid.

• Their dashcam recorder feature I detailed in my above post.
• Advanced driver assistance (ADAS) features like High Beam Assistant (which brightens or dims the headlights depending on traffic).
• Real-time traffic alerts and Navigation map updates (I'm surprised people are still paying for this when Google/Apple/Waze are better, just like people still pay $500-$2,000 for navigation map on a CD or MicroSD card from an automaker).
• Active Cruise Control (ACC) driver assistance system with Stop & Go function
• Adaptive M Suspension
• This is from the same company that charged it's users for Apple CarPlay and Android Auto that is already installed in their cars...

Why You Might Need to Subscribe to Get Certain Features on Your Next Car - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports explains why you might need to subscribe to get certain features on your next car, noting that some automakers plan to charge fees for some features.

www.consumerreports.org

Read this interesting article from Consumer Reports...at least five OEMs – Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, and Tesla – were rolling out a subscription model for certain options in certain markets for features that are already installed on the car.

Any sufficiently advanced marketing is indistinguishable from bullsh*t !!

 

[Dashmellow]

The automaker will argue...That's the benefit of a subscription. You only subscribe when you need it (such as Nov-Feb). If you live in parts of Alaska or Canada where winter is 8 out of 12 months of the year, then you only subscribe for 8-10 months.
Of course pretty soon they might start charging for ventilated seats as well which might require a separate subscription for the summer months(May-Sept). If you live in a desert, then you will need coverage for 8-12 months of the year!

But seriously though...BMW hides other things behind paywalls besides heated seats. The vehicles are equipped with the necessary hardware at the factory with a software block preventing them from being functional. That block can be removed over the air once the monthly or annual subscription fee has been paid.

• Their dashcam recorder feature I detailed in my above post.
• Advanced driver assistance (ADAS) features like High Beam Assistant (which brightens or dims the headlights depending on traffic).
• Real-time traffic alerts and Navigation map updates (I'm surprised people are still paying for this when Google/Apple/Waze are better, just like people still pay $500-$2,000 for navigation map on a CD or MicroSD card from an automaker).
• Active Cruise Control (ACC) driver assistance system with Stop & Go function
• Adaptive M Suspension
• This is from the same company that charged it's users for Apple CarPlay and Android Auto that is already installed in their cars...

Why You Might Need to Subscribe to Get Certain Features on Your Next Car - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports explains why you might need to subscribe to get certain features on your next car, noting that some automakers plan to charge fees for some features.

www.consumerreports.org

Read this interesting article from Consumer Reports...at least five OEMs – Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, and Tesla – were rolling out a subscription model for certain options in certain markets for features that are already installed on the car.

Good Lord, this is worse than I thought! And of course, one of the things you'll get with your subscription is they'll be tracking your every move.

 

[DT MI]

The automaker will argue...That's the benefit of a subscription. You only subscribe when you need it (such as Nov-Feb). If you live in parts of Alaska or Canada where winter is 8 out of 12 months of the year, then you only subscribe for 8-10 months.

That's pretty much a hollow argument, however. For years GM has provided OnStar trials on many of their vehicles at no charge for some period of time (length varied by model and trim) then charge a fee for ongoing use - figuring that the 'renewal' subscriptions would fund the cost of service. Recently that business model has changed and now, for at least some vehicles, OnStar is now a mandatory 'option' at a cost of $500/year for 3 years. It's not included in the price, but you can't buy the vehicle without the option.

 

[DAP]

Example: Tesla sells 2 vehicles that use the exact same battery at 2 different prices. The only difference is that the battery/range is "software" limited by Tesla. Giving the battery is exactly the same except being software limited, you already paid for the hardware.
Not sure if this is still the case now.

This is no longer true, and has not been for a while. Currently the standard range models use lithium iron batteries, a different technology than the long range cars use. Cheaper, and not as energy dense, but also not prone to damage from being fully charged.

Read this interesting article from Consumer Reports...at least five OEMs – Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Porsche, and Tesla – were rolling out a subscription model for certain options in certain markets for features that are already installed on the car.

There are only three things sold by Tesla as subscriptions. Tesla Insurance (try getting ANY insurance that is not a subscription), Premium connectivity (which requires access to cellular service), and Full Self Drive which is only a subscription because customers INSISTED on being able to buy it that way. It used to only be available for purchase. Complaining about that last one would be akin to buying a computer than complaining that you also had to buy Microsoft Windows, and a word processor separately. BTW, Microsoft Windows & Office is now on a subscription model as well.

What Tesla is doing does not annoy me. The things they currently are selling as subscription either require continuous expense on Teslas part, or you can buy them outright to avoid paying rent. What does annoy me is paying extra to enable hardware that does not even need software to implement. Heated seats, I'm looking at you. It is as bad as some old IBM printers, one was twice as fast as the other, they were identical with a belt installed in a different position on the pulleys.

 

[Lothar]

That's pretty much a hollow argument, however. For years GM has provided OnStar trials on many of their vehicles at no charge for some period of time (length varied by model and trim) then charge a fee for ongoing use - figuring that the 'renewal' subscriptions would fund the cost of service. Recently that business model has changed and now, for at least some vehicles, OnStar is now a mandatory 'option' at a cost of $500/year for 3 years. It's not included in the price, but you can't buy the vehicle without the option.

Yeah, I just read about that. Craziness.

This is no longer true, and has not been for a while. Currently the standard range models use lithium iron batteries, a different technology than the long range cars use. Cheaper, and not as energy dense, but also not prone to damage from being fully charged.


There are only three things sold by Tesla as subscriptions. Tesla Insurance (try getting ANY insurance that is not a subscription), Premium connectivity (which requires access to cellular service), and Full Self Drive which is only a subscription because customers INSISTED on being able to buy it that way. It used to only be available for purchase. Complaining about that last one would be akin to buying a computer than complaining that you also had to buy Microsoft Windows, and a word processor separately. BTW, Microsoft Windows & Office is now on a subscription model as well.

What Tesla is doing does not annoy me. The things they currently are selling as subscription either require continuous expense on Teslas part, or you can buy them outright to avoid paying rent. What does annoy me is paying extra to enable hardware that does not even need software to implement. Heated seats, I'm looking at you. It is as bad as some old IBM printers, one was twice as fast as the other, they were identical with a belt installed in a different position on the pulleys.

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm also curious about this...
If one pays for a "lifetime" subscription for these features or buys the subscription outright to avoid paying rent, does it stay with the car(meaning it's transferable to whoever the new owner of that same car is based on the VIN#), the buyer(meaning it's transferable to whatever new car the original owner buys and is disabled in the old car based on the user's BMW/Tesla/GM/whatever auto manufacturer account), or neither(not transferable to another car or person just like Windows which is tied to both motherboard of a computer and also the user's "Microsoft" account and therefore is non-transferable)?
This subscription model is different from one buying a new car with factory options. I know when you buy a new car, whatever features you bought with the new car transfers to any new owner.

I wonder what the case is for things like these regarding BMW headlights subscription, heated seats, and all that as I see that they do offer options for the customer to buy them outright. Doesn't mean that any of their features are worth buying though.

 

[Lothar]

The auto industry is racing towards a future full of micro-transactions...

@DAP gave us detailed information on Tesla's subscriptions earlier, so I looked up all the subscription features that BMW offers and analyzed them below:

BMW ConnectedDrive | BMW UK

Connect your BMW to the rest of the world with BMW ConnectedDrive services. Discover all digital services in the BMW ConnectedDrive Store.

www.bmw.co.uk

Active Cruise Control with Stop & Go function: This is essentially "Basic Cruise Control" behind a subscription paywall. Almost every car from Toyota, Honda, and Mazda has this feature for free. I can't imaging paying £750 for the privilege for something that comes standard in a Toyota Corolla or a Honda Civic.

Adaptive M Suspension: Lol...£399 for this? This thing sounds like pure profit. All I see are a bunch of buzzwords like adapts, comfort, and overly broad generalizations. At least they admit that the hardware for this is already on the car. They're making this thing sound like some magical Google/Tesla AI or cloud computing thing when it is not.

Apple CarPlay Preparation: They charge for this? "May only be available with additional optional equipment"...So in addition to this £265 subscription fee, you still have to pay for an additional "optional" equipment for this feature that you already paid £265 for it to work? The optional equipment maybe something as simple as them installing a USB or lightning cable in your car. I would assume labor and installation fees are not included as well? Given the fact that all BMWs already ship with Wireless Android Auto, this sounds like a subscription scheme that they developed to pick the pocket of Apple iPhone users who might not know any better.

BMW Drive Recorder: Waste of money like I pointed out earlier in this thread based on it's features. For that £199 subscription price, I can get a better dashcam from Viofo with better features.

BMW Safety camera: Waste of money. Waze and Google are crowd-sourced and therefore will always have more updated and accurate information of both fixed and mobile enforcement cameras for free instead of wasting £25. They should reassign those engineers to work elsewhere.

Driving Assistant Plus: This is essentially "Adaptive Cruise Control" with ADAS/braking/lane keeping assist behind a subscription paywall. Almost every car from Toyota, Honda, and Mazda has this feature for free. I can't imaging paying £750 for the privilege for something that comes standard in a Toyota Corolla or a Honda Civic. So yeah, you will pay £750 for this and also £750 Active Cruise Control with Stop & Go function above for a total of £1500.

Front seat heating: I think everyone here already agrees on how stupid this is...£15/month or £350 for an "unlimited" subscription.

High beam assistant: I can't imaging why I should pay £10/month or £200 for an "unlimited" subscription for the privilege for my car's headlights to not blind incoming drivers due to it's automatic high beams. This feature is also standard in a Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic.

Iconic sounds sport: £99...Don't see any value here personally...but they are free to charge whatever for their work. Just like there are people that will buy emoticon packs, icon packs, and stickers.

Map update package: Meh...Google is the best mapping company on the planet and I can easily download offline maps if I want. BMW's subscription is £79/year with a promise of "up to 4" updates in a year with the keyword being "up to". It's hard for me to imagine that BMW would ever have a better map than Google.

Online Entertainment voucher: £179/year...limited to only 10 EU countries? Just pay for a YouTube Premium/Music, Spotify, or Apple Music subscription for the same price or less...and you won't be limited to only 10 EU countries either.

Service Inclusive: I personally would never pay £895.81 for a 5 year service plan for any car, but it might give certain people that don't want to spend time looking for reputable independent shops peace of mind having their car serviced at a dealer?

Heated Steering Wheel: Really??? Same deal with heated seats. £10/month or £200 for an "unlimited" subscription. I did not even know that they also charged for this until I saw it in this link.

These connected services are marching towards becoming the next profit centre...Total cost of above options: £4,390.81
I discussed this with someone I know that also does not drive a BMW and his opinion was: "Well...if you are getting a BMW, then you should be able to afford these things".
I'm sure BMW also thinks the same of their users which is why they are charging what they are charging.

 

[DAP]

More info about Tesla products:
Some early Teslas were sold with unlimited free supercharging (think getting free gas for your car). This stays with the car when it is sold. Later this changed to be just for the original owner (but only for new cars sold, those original unlimited supercharging cars kept their free supercharging), and stops when the car is sold.

Full self drive purchases stay with the car. Many Tesla owners are lobbying to get this changed so that the full self drive can be transferred to a new car. There is an exception. When a car is traded in to Tesla, Tesla can remove the full self driving feature from the car, though sometimes Tesla only sells used Tesla's with full self driving included. This is a software feature, and it is not well defined what the right way to handle it is. Sort of like how Microsoft Windows came on some new computers and was not transferable, but you could buy it separately and get a transferable copy.

I don't think Tesla sells anything beyond Full Self Drive, and free supercharging where it could be ambiguous as to it staying with the car.

Disclamer: I do not work for Tesla, but I own a Tesla model 3, some Tesla stock, and pay some attention to what Tesla does.

 

[Dash cams Serbia]

Adaptive M Suspension: Lol...£399 for this? This thing sounds like pure profit. All I see are a bunch of buzzwords like adapts, comfort, and overly broad generalizations. At least they admit that the hardware for this is already on the car. They're making this thing sound like some magical Google/Tesla AI or cloud computing thing when it is not.

The most non-car guy comment in existence. Clueless...

 

[kantonburg]

I do watch Linus' channel and a lot of what he reviews and does is informative, but.....

Is he spot on or did they do enough research to setup the Viofo, Thinkware, & BlackVue correctly?

 

[Nigel]

Is he spot on or did they do enough research to setup the Viofo, Thinkware, & BlackVue correctly?

He is fairly accurate for low light conditions. In good lighting the Thinkware is probably a little better than he suggested, and if you are parked in good lighting then the Blackvue is a little better than he suggested.

I don't think he was very accurate with regards to the SoCs, a lot of companies use Novatek these days because they have become the best, but there is variety, and Novatek chips are not all identical.

Currently there is a lack of variety in the image sensors being used, which does result in a lot of similarity in performance, but that is just the current situation, wasn't true a couple of years ago, and won't be true in a year or two.

I note that you have the recommended camera!