Mini-xxxx redesign concept?

[jokiin]

You can buy excellent quality metal CCTV cameras for 100 dollars or less, about half the price of a SG9665GC..

got a link?

It can't be too hard to make a similar product, only smaller.

don't know where to begin on this, everyone seems to think these things make themselves

 

[Dashmellow]

got a link?

don't know where to begin on this, everyone seems to think these things make themselves

Sure, Hikvisons are outstanding!

I've never been able to fathom why a SG9665GC should cost over $200.

Here's a Hikvision DS-2CD2032-I for $110.00 on Amazon. You can find them for 100 or slightly less.

And here's a Hikvisiion DS-2CE56C5T-IT for $55.10


Edit:
Here's the 4MP higher end version Hikvision DS-2CD2042WD-I for $102.00

 

[jokiin]

Hikvision is good stuff, familiar with those, where the rest of it though, this is just a camera, what are you recording to?

 

[Dashmellow]

Hikvision is good stuff, familiar with those, where the rest of it though, this is just a camera, what are you recording to?

CCTV cameras have practically the same DSP units that dash cams have on the PCB and often the exact same sensors. The Axis camera I posted above has a microSD slot or can be networked. They are not significantly different than dash cams except for certain components that wouldn't double the cost of manufacture. Plus, these cameras are in cast aluminum alloy housings.

 

[jokiin]

apples and oranges again

 

[Dashmellow]

apples and oranges again

I think you are splitting hairs. A Hikvison for 55 bucks and you suggest it should cost four times as much to add memory storage?

 

[jokiin]

I think you are splitting hairs. A Hikvison for 55 bucks and you suggest it should cost four times as much to add memory storage?

that's a 720p product

 

[Dashmellow]

that's a 720p product

Yes, it HD-TVI, a new tech that provides HD over coax. They come in 1080P too and are also very reasonable in price like the DS-2CE56D1T-IRM for $61.14

 

[jokiin]

you're back to apples and oranges again 😱

 

[Dashmellow]

you're back to apples and oranges again 😱

And you are still playing games.

Bottom line is that you habitually pooh pooh and belittle any concept that challenges your super high margin "replace all the bad ones" business model.

 

[Dashmellow]

And the idea here wasn't to get distracted by providing links to CCTV cameras that are modestly priced but to talk about an alternative, possibly improved approach to designing and building better dash cameras but you like to create diversions like this.

 

[jokiin]

this isn't going to go anywhere obviously, other than round and round in circles

 

[Dashmellow]

this isn't going to go anywhere obviously, other than round and round in circles

I was just thinking the same thing.

Anyway, one way or another I do hope one day we see a somewhat different approach to building dash cameras that will make them more reliable and not go out of focus.

 

[SawMaster]

Just tossing out some thoughts to kick around here so kick away at them, but please refrain from kicking people as that is counter-productive 😎

One of the 'heat sinks' in flashlights is the mount; in these cases the human hand with the bloodflow providing 'liquid cooling' too 😛 So a dashcam mount could also be used to help dissipate heat, potentially to the surface which the mount attaches to as well provided it is cooler than the cam's internals, yet they all seem to be plastic which doesn't have the properties needed to transfer heat effectively 😡 The lens housing could be finned radially (concentrically) at almost no extra cost since it's already being turned on a lathe or mill, and that could help dissipate the heat of the sensor. Active air cooling is used in some custom lights- simply a 1" (25mm) pancake fan such as computers use which are made for 5VDC. In something the size of a wedge cam such a fan wouldn't appreciable increase the size of the footprint, just the thickness. Not expensive either but would need stronger power supplies 😉

My 24/7 always-running-in-a-hot-van Mobius doesn't have heat-related problems even with it's tiny CPU heat-sink which to my eyes is of questionable value due to it's small radiating surface). Heat CAN be a problem but if Mobius can do this then there's no valid reason similar systems cannot 😗 Ambarella processors run hotter, but is their performance gain worth making better heat management worth having just to use them? Higher bitrate equals higher heat because more processing work is being done. Again is that gain something worth the extra heat-sinking effort it would take to implement? And what of other processors?

In conclusion it seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard or too costly to dissipate more heat if that's necessary without making major changes to form factor although it would probably take the manufacture of a new case design. Yet other than the lens assembly is such extra effort is necessary; has someone actually tested-to-toasting these processors or is everyone just following the chip-makers specs blindly? An automotive interior can be a tough environment but the other electronics in the car and under the hood where is even hotter don't go toast and some of those are working pretty hard too.

tldr: Better heat management is easily possible but is it really needed, and would it be worth the extra cost and effort?

Kick away!
Phil

 

[Nigel]

...yet they all seem to be plastic which doesn't have the properties needed to transfer heat effectively 😡
...
Kick away!
Phil

Except that we got into discussing heat because kamkar1 made a post about fans and panting, and a camera that gets "almighty hot":

Make me pant a little too as a fan of unconventional shaped cameras for action and even the car.

The Sj7 Star can get almighty hot, but i never had it thermal shut down on me.

The SJ7 is one of the few dashcams/actioncams that is actually made of metal, maybe metal is not such a good idea!

(And the Gitup F1 is looking even hotter this morning, 22,330 facebook likes in under 3 days.)

 

[Dashmellow]

Thanks to all the push back and obfuscation yesterday regarding what I've tried to convey about how CCTV cameras are built, one of the more salient points I made seems to keep getting overlooked.

Obviously heat is the primary culprit here but a cast aluminum alloy housing and heat sinking of the entire circuit board are not the only important aspects of CCTV camera design that makes them so reliable.
What is key here is the rigidity of the camera's construction and the internal securing of the components to a rigid support mechanism, especially the lens assembly, but also the PCB that prevents any heat related warping that would throw the camera out of focus or cause other potential expansion issues. For CCTV cameras at least, this also applies to cold related contraction for a camera that must function 24/7 in extreme environments.

As long as dash cams are built like toys or gadgets akin to a Gameboy with printed circuit boards and LCD screens screwed onto standoffs molded into plastic housings, inadequate heat sinking and small plastic (and even metal) lens modules that are not adequately supported, especially around the barrel and bezel, there will always be problems. If and when dash cams get built more solidly like real cameras, instead of like gadgets and toys, the constant and persistent failures and reliability issues will become far less of a problem.

You can call it "apples and oranges" all you wish but that just willfully ignores the reasons that CCTV cameras, often priced similarly to many dash cams but constructed to a different standard of durability and temperature resistance and that operate 24/7 do not experience the widespread focus issues, short lifespans and chronic reliability problems that constitute a vast number of customer posts and complaints to this forum.

 

[kamkar]

I have wondered too about the CCTV / IP camers Vs dashcam price.
But either the dashcams makers are all ganged up and no one is undercutting, or what they cost are just what it cost.
I am sure if you could make good high end dashcams and make money selling them for 100 - 120 dollars more would do so, but that price range are often populated by mid range cameras that you can or can not get lucky with.

My friend that just upgraded to 1080p IP cameras i had to refocus one of the cheap bullet cams on day one, and another one that have shifted a little during the so called summer.
Off course that was not dahua or hikvision cameras, but still 40 - 50 buks cameras in EU ( Poland is where they came from i think ) they would probably be 20 - 30 UDS ip cameras in China, but things get a bit more expensive when adding EU tax

As i recall a cheap dahua 1080p bullet camera are about 6 - 700 DKkr in the EU ( fleabay / amazons ) ( 95 - 110 USD )

 

[Dashmellow]

Large numbers of buyers have been more than happy to pay over two hundred dollars USD or more for an SG9665GC or similar. I see no legitimate reason a manufacturer could not produce a durable aluminum alloy, solidly constructed and heat resistant and heat dissipating dash cam in that general price range. All it needs is a different design/build paradigm more similar to how CCTV cameras in that price range are made. Don't believe the denial, hype and propaganda from entrenched interests, but do expect to hear more of it.

 

[Nigel]

Large numbers of buyers have been more than happy to pay over two hundred dollars USD or more for an SG9665GC or similar. I see no legitimate reason a manufacturer could not produce a durable aluminum alloy, solidly constructed and heat resistant and heat dissipating dash cam in that general price range. All it needs is a different design/build paradigm more similar to how CCTV cameras in that price range are made. Don't believe the denial, hype and propaganda from entrenched interests, but do expect to hear more of it.

If someone did make a very rigid metal dashcam, I wouldn't want to mount it above my head where in an accident it may turn into a bullet and go through my skull.

I don't actually see any problem with plastic, as long as it is the sort of plastic that doesn't melt in the summer sun. The cameras are only using around 2 watts of power, that is not a lot of heat to get rid off, just needs a reasonable design. The plastic is good at shielding the internals from the heat of the sun.

 

[Dashmellow]

If someone did make a very rigid metal dashcam, I wouldn't want to mount it above my head where in an accident it may turn into a bullet and go through my skull.

I don't actually see any problem with plastic, as long as it is the sort of plastic that doesn't melt in the summer sun. The cameras are only using around 2 watts of power, that is not a lot of heat to get rid off, just needs a reasonable design. The plastic is good at shielding the internals from the heat of the sun.

Obviously, you've never touched a dash cam DSP that has been running for a while (or the heat sink on the top of a Mobius for that matter) but they get extraordinarily hot, enough to burn your fingertip and make you instantly pull your hand away. The Ambarella processors get even hotter than the Novateks. Between the hot processor and the also hot sensor in the lens module there is plenty of heat inside a camera that needs to be shed.

Personally, I would have no concerns that a properly installed 3M VHB mounted camera would turn into a projectile but I certainly wouldn't mount dash cams "above my head" at any rate.