Mobius

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius
Referring back to some previous posts, I would like to reinforce my statement that you should not squash the Supercaps in order to get them to fit in sideways.
If they fit sideways without any strain, then it's OK. Otherwise don't do it! As the third picture below illustrates, there is plenty of space below the ribbon cable bend.
I have removed the tape in order to show the capacitor connections. If the solder didn't flow correctly there may also be sharp edges where the wires were cut. On my example, the center connection was extremely sharp. The tape used is very robust, but it can still be punctured, for example by bending the center connection upwards. It is also easy to create a short circuit when you bend the wires but can't see what you are bending below the Kaptan tape. Using force can also weaken the connection to the aluminum foil inside the capacitor. As you may be able to imagine, the center connection needs a lot of force in order to bent it into position.
A short circuit may not be immediately evident and only occur when the camera is jolted.
I don't know if the developer will change the design and cut the capacitor wires shorter. I see absolutely no reason to do this, but unless the capacitor easily fits sideways, don't tamper with them.
The second picture shows how the battery takes up considerable more headroom under the ribbon cable than the Supercap. The third picture shows the Supercap correctly inserted. Note the top part of the casing at the back of the picture which gives a rough idea of how much headroom is available for the ribbon cable. There is plenty.
The third picture is the first picture I took. It is the original, before I removed the tape
SuperCap03.JPG
SuperCap04.JPG
SuperCap05.JPG

To summarize, if you have a supercap like the one shown, it is totally unnecessary to insert the capacitor sideways by squashing it to make room. The 'extra' tape is there to prevent shorts! Squashing the tape will only expose the Mobius to unnecessary dangers.
If you can solder, and have some Kapton tape (don't use electrical tape, heat-shrink tubing, etc.) then you can easily adapt the design to make it fit sideways, just don't squash things you can't see!
 

drh

Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
65
Reaction score
8
Country
Lithuania
Dash Cam
Mobius, SJ 1000, 808#16,
sorry for super-capacitors off topic but do you guys think it would be possible to rotate mobius lens 90 degrees? I know software allows 180 degrees rotation but for motorcycle use I see that 90 should be better.
Thanks.
 

russ331

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
2,470
Reaction score
2,448
Location
Kingston on Thames
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius B (x2) & A119

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius
sorry for super-capacitors off topic but do you guys think it would be possible to rotate mobius lens 90 degrees? I know software allows 180 degrees rotation but for motorcycle use I see that 90 should be better.
Thanks.

No, this is not possible with the current firmware. I don't know if the CMOS sensor/DSP is capable of doing the flip. As far as I'm aware, nothing has been planned, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. Your question has been asked once or twice on the RC forums so I assume the developer has taken note.
 

murcod

Active Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
500
Reaction score
199
Location
South Australia
Country
Australia
Dash Cam
Mobius, A119v2, A119v3

No, this is not possible with the current firmware. I don't know if the CMOS sensor/DSP is capable of doing the flip. As far as I'm aware, nothing has been planned, but that doesn't mean it's not possible. Your question has been asked once or twice on the RC forums so I assume the developer has taken note.
Wouldn't the physical internal construction of the CMOS sensor prevent a 90 degree software rotation (unless you were happy with an oddball resolution- I can't see 1080p being possible)?
 

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius


Wouldn't the physical internal construction of the CMOS sensor prevent a 90 degree software rotation (unless you were happy with an oddball resolution- I can't see 1080p being possible)?
The sensor is capable of 2304x1536 so you are right, 90° at 1080p would not be possible. I replied too quickly;)
The CMOS cable is very fragile, so I wouldn't try twisting it too much. It might work, but you wouldn't be able to fit it into the case. The only other alternative is to use an extension lens. Also not a good alternative in your case.
The easiest solution for you would to modify an existing mount. I have no experience in motorcycle mounting but I'm sure there's a simple solution, like a small right-angle bracket etc.
 
OP
Mtz

Mtz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
2,488
Location
Nice place
Country
Romania
Dash Cam
Viofo A139. A129+. SGGCX2. GitUp.
That fragile cable made me thinking to put the capacitors in the other way. I know that old story. My CMOS cable seems to be better and is black color.
don't use electrical tape, heat-shrink tubing, etc.
Why not any of these? I saw in another dashcam the capacitors covered with some heat-shrink plastic.
IMG_20130704_224325.jpg IMG_20130704_224401.jpg IMG_20130704_224819.jpg
enjoy,
Mtz
 
Last edited:

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius

That fragile cable made me thinking to put the capacitors in the other way. I know that old story. My CMOS cable seems to be better and is black color.

Why not any of these? I saw in another dashcam the capacitors covered with some heat-shrink plastic.
View attachment 1592 View attachment 1593 View attachment 1594
enjoy,
Mtz

Yes, I completely understand your thoughts. The ribbon cable IS very fragile, there's no doubt about it. I have the greatest respect for it and am always very careful not to pull it or bend it unnecessarily.

In your pictures, the heat shrink tubing is not insulating anything like the wires in the supercap, but holding different components together. The components are also larger. In the pictures, heat shrink serves as a general insulator, maybe preventing components touching each other or the casing. All the components are soldered to the board and there are no dangling wires. There is also plenty of airflow. Heat shrink tubing doesn't like excess heat - over time it can split if the tubing was too small in the first place. It also makes the unit larger and is much more fragile than Kaptan tape. The Mobius is, IMO, too small an enclosure to have components bonded by heat shrink tubing. For the supercap example, heat shrink tubing can pull the wires together. There is also tubing which has a gluey compound, which may work better. You could, though, insulate the separate wires with heat shrink. That would work fine and add more protection. The main disadvantage of heat shrink is that it will make the small supercap combo much larger which may then be difficult to fit into the case. It may just fit though. Although minimal, there will also be less airflow.
Kaptan tape is ideal for these sorts of things - that's what it was designed for. Light, very strong, a great insulator, very heat-resistant, easy to remove and no sticky mess. It's also great for protecting components when desoldering/soldering other components nearby. It can take a lot of heat.
If done professionally, and assuming there is space, I agree that heat shrink could work, but some form of glue would be needed around the wires. It would certainly "look" better :)
Like I previously posted, I use heat shrink a lot, but I don't believe it's the right stuff to use on the supercap. Kaptan tape is the better choice by far, if it weren't for the "looks". But who knows, maybe 'looks' will win in the long run......
 

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius
For me was a short run. :p

Gallery index.

enjoy,
Mtz
Yes, that looks OK. The tubing around the capacitors may split if the camera gets hot - but that will most probably only happen next summer, if it happens at all.
Anyway, much safer than squashing the wires and it looks much better than the tape solution, but not something I'll be using. If I would install the supercaps like you do I would have wrapped the capacitors in the 6th pictures in tape - Kaptan tape exists in different widths and you could have chosen a width equal to the height of the capacitors - it would also look quite good and not be so thick. The insulated wires are definitely good.

 

Necromancer

Active Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
169
Reaction score
31
Country
Israel
you guys made me really horny on a capacitor right now.
Any word from these mysterious 'developers'? I can't wait. Once out i'm gonna order one more cam to be used as dashcam for another car.

i quit following the RC thread cus mr. Tom was chasing us dashcam users out of the so called 'support thread'. apparently its fine to discuss different plane mounts, but not dashcam use :-/
thats when i found this one and was happy to see you guys were following this one as well.
 

BobDiaz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
409
Reaction score
307
Location
California, LA
Country
United States

BobDiaz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
409
Reaction score
307
Location
California, LA
Country
United States
Referring back to some previous posts, I would like to reinforce my statement that you should not squash the Supercaps in order to get them to fit in sideways.
If they fit sideways without any strain, then it's OK. Otherwise don't do it! As the third picture below illustrates, there is plenty of space below the ribbon cable bend.
I have removed the tape in order to show the capacitor connections. If the solder didn't flow correctly there may also be sharp edges where the wires were cut. On my example, the center connection was extremely sharp. The tape used is very robust, but it can still be punctured, for example by bending the center connection upwards. It is also easy to create a short circuit when you bend the wires but can't see what you are bending below the Kaptan tape. Using force can also weaken the connection to the aluminum foil inside the capacitor. As you may be able to imagine, the center connection needs a lot of force in order to bent it into position.
A short circuit may not be immediately evident and only occur when the camera is jolted.
I don't know if the developer will change the design and cut the capacitor wires shorter. I see absolutely no reason to do this, but unless the capacitor easily fits sideways, don't tamper with them.
The second picture shows how the battery takes up considerable more headroom under the ribbon cable than the Supercap. The third picture shows the Supercap correctly inserted. Note the top part of the casing at the back of the picture which gives a rough idea of how much headroom is available for the ribbon cable. There is plenty.
The third picture is the first picture I took. It is the original, before I removed the tape
SuperCap03.JPG
SuperCap04.JPG
SuperCap05.JPG

To summarize, if you have a supercap like the one shown, it is totally unnecessary to insert the capacitor sideways by squashing it to make room. The 'extra' tape is there to prevent shorts! Squashing the tape will only expose the Mobius to unnecessary dangers.
If you can solder, and have some Kapton tape (don't use electrical tape, heat-shrink tubing, etc.) then you can easily adapt the design to make it fit sideways, just don't squash things you can't see!

Your 5F super capacitors in series results in a total of 2.5F. I assume this provides enough for a clean shutdown, BUT how well does the clock work when not powered up. Does it last 1 day, 3 days, ... ? As I recall someone measured the clock and found that it consumes about 15uA (15 micro-amps) of current. A crude estimate suggests that 2.5F might last 1 or 2 days with no additional power. What did you find???
 

russ331

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
2,470
Reaction score
2,448
Location
Kingston on Thames
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius B (x2) & A119
Thanks so much for uploading the video. One odd thing, the bit rate according to the Apple Video Player is 16.94 Mbps. Very odd that the lowest setting is greater than the middle setting of 15.25 Mbsp.

The clip I uploaded was, by chance, the largest file size recorded at the lowest bit rate. Files for the 3 minute clips varied in size from 270Mb to 378Mb.

The 3 minute clips recorded at standard bit rate have now been erased, & I don't recall their range of file sizes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Last edited:

BobDiaz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
409
Reaction score
307
Location
California, LA
Country
United States
It's interesting to see how much the range changes for the lowest rate setting. At the low end it's under 12 Mbps but at the high end it's almost 17 Mbps. In looking closely at different clips recorded at different settings, I can safely say that while the high bit rate has minimum compression noise, unless you're doing something for professional work, it's overkill. The mid setting about 15 Mbps has some compression noise, but you have to look hard to spot it. The low end does have more compression noise, but the image is still very clean and in a court of law I just can't see it posing a problem.

Night increases the grain of the video because the amplifier has to be increased in gain to record an image. This random noise pattern reeks havoc with compression, so I can't say how good or bad it will be at night.
 

jokiin

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
52,478
Reaction score
30,314
Location
Sydney, Australia ~ Shenzhen, China
Country
Australia
Dash Cam
Too many ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I ran one of my cameras at 20Mbps this past weekend just to see how it would go, didn't run any hotter than it does at 15Mbps which was good, yes the image is better but you do chew through disk space at higher rates, it's close to 10gb per hour
 
OP
Mtz

Mtz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
3,918
Reaction score
2,488
Location
Nice place
Country
Romania
Dash Cam
Viofo A139. A129+. SGGCX2. GitUp.
I know the developer want the best quality he can offer, but he also was advised by the RC users in many things regarding the camera creation.
But there are differences in camera usage between flying 15 minutes and working 24h/day. Of course when you are using the camera just 15 minutes you have the space and temperatures to record at the highest bitrate, but as we know the camera is compact and the cooling is hard to be done, maybe a lower bitrate will be better for the camera.

I know Itronics use 6000kbps for 1080p. OK, I know some users want more than 6mbps but even at that bitrate Itronics is one of the best dashcams. So for Mobius used as a dashcam it should have bitrates starting from 7000kbps. And we must not compare some korean cameras like BlackVue which needed a lot of bitrate just because the chipset and codec used is bad when recording under the trees during day and people had hopes that a bigger bitrate will save them from image macroblocks. For the Mobius there are not macroblocks under the tree testing during day.

For the Mobius as a dashcam 7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14-15 mbps settings should be OK. Just imagine if you are setting the highest bitrate from Mobius you can record on a 16GB card just 2 hours! I know most of the people here are using 32GB cards and this is because they want longer records and high bitrates, but spending the money on a 32GB card just to record 4 hours for me is useless as a dashcam. I am not a movie director from Discovery.

enjoy,
Mtz
 

Necromancer

Active Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2013
Messages
169
Reaction score
31
Country
Israel
Night increases the grain of the video because the amplifier has to be increased in gain to record an image. This random noise pattern reeks havoc with compression, so I can't say how good or bad it will be at night.
Is there a way (for dev) to improve the graining with a firmware somehow?

Can you also explain why the frames at night are smeared? At day time, even when im driving 150KM/h the frames are perfectly sharp, but at night every movement smeard across the frame. In still cameras its because of longer exposure times at night. Why does it happen in the Mobius? Anything that can be done to improve it?
 

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius
Your 5F super capacitors in series results in a total of 2.5F. I assume this provides enough for a clean shutdown, BUT how well does the clock work when not powered up. Does it last 1 day, 3 days, ... ? As I recall someone measured the clock and found that it consumes about 15uA (15 micro-amps) of current. A crude estimate suggests that 2.5F might last 1 or 2 days with no additional power. What did you find???

I measured the current draw when the Mobius is in the off state back in May and the 15μA you state is correct. I'll try and measure how long the supercaps hold their charge after an automatic shutdown, but that can take a while! Connecting an ammeter circuit to sound an alarm or stop a timer when the supercaps lose their charge would falsify the results, so the supercaps need to be tested by hand. If still holding charge after a set period of time, the supercaps need to be recharged and the test has to be repeated from scratch using a longer time period. I also like to confirm the results by repeating the test. I could also set up a simulation rig using a resistor to drain the supercaps faster, but since current leakage also comes into play I prefer to do it the correct way. I may have to temporarily abort the test if I need my test camera for other purposes so I have no idea how long the test will take. I think your estimate is very optimistic. The Mobius draws a lot of current to properly shutdown. But we'll see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mtz

Isoprop

Well-Known Member
App Developer
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
740
Reaction score
885
Country
United Kingdom
Dash Cam
Mobius
I will be very interested if we still see horror pictures of molten Mobius when powered by Supercaps. The Supercaps should generate no heat when running, unlike LiPos, and there is more space inside the casing for air to circulate.
Isn't the Australian summer coming up soon? :)


More on charging...
I don't think some parts of the following information have been previously posted, so here goes.
The USB 12V adapter can pose a problem to the Mobius' LiPo when the camera is used as a dashcam. If the adapter is under-dimensioned or flaky it won't provide enough voltage to properly charge the battery. The charger IC built into the Mobius will stop charging when the external voltage drops below 4.2V and the LiPo will start to discharge. This in turn requires less current from the external power so the external supply can now provide the needed min. 4.2V again. The process continues Ad infinitum. If the external USB 12V supply is unstable these fast charge/discharge cycles are extremely detrimental to the battery and can cause it to heat up and fail within a week. This may have caused those melted Mobius we've seen.
When used as a dashcam, the 12V converter should be capable of supplying at least 1A /1000mA with a stable voltage of +5V to +5.5V. Don't yell, I know I've posted many times in the RC groups that 5.5V is outside the USB specification, but for dashcam use it's acceptable and approved by the developer. He recommends the voltage never drops below 5V. Just don't go higher than 5.5V or you may be asking for trouble. 5.5V is safe though.
Another important factor for dashcam use is the charging cable. It should be a thick cable and of high quality. Poor quality and long cables reduce the voltage significantly. Don't use them. The car charger and the 3M USB cables sold by the Chinese sellers have been tested with the Mobius and are known to work properly.


Sorry this was a bit technical, but hope the information is useful to someone.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Mobius 6
1 Mobius 2
G Mobius 19
A Mobius 22
J Mobius 24
Top