Supercaps / Capacitors installation DIY project and Tests. B40 ( A118 )

Guys,

Just a quick note, I have an idea that might help. I have ordered this cam only a few days ago, so I don't have it yet, but concerning the space available for the supercaps... how about the triangular "cable hiding" thing? It seems there's plenty of space there, wouldn't it be a good idea to place caps there also? Maybe 2 more 5F 2,7V supercaps would fit there connected in series, and connected to the cam via a short cable, and that connected parallel with the other two, thus giving 10F 5.4V.

What do you think about it? Could someone try if 2 caps would fit into that cable hiding plastic?

edit: Or maybe, we could use flat supercaps, instead of cylindrical ones, like: http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/docs/hq_pc10_ds_08122013.pdf
 
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Peter Molnar said:
Guys,

Just a quick note, I have an idea that might help. I have ordered this cam only a few days ago, so I don't have it yet, but concerning the space available for the supercaps... how about the triangular "cable hiding" thing? It seems there's plenty of space there, wouldn't it be a good idea to place caps there also? Maybe 2 more 5F 2,7V supercaps would fit there connected in series, and connected to the cam via a short cable, and that connected parallel with the other two, thus giving 10F 5.4V.

What do you think about it? Could someone try if 2 caps would fit into that cable hiding plastic?

edit: Or maybe, we could use flat supercaps, instead of cylindrical ones, like: http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/docs/hq_pc10_ds_08122013.pdf
Click to expand...

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Thanks for the pics!

The flat supercap I linked above is 29.6mm x 23.6mm x 4.8mm , from the measurements it seems that even 3 of those stacked together (with the 29.6mm side facing the camera) would fit on the wider side of the cable holder, without touching the cable connectors or the mounting stud in the center. And at least one more of them could be fitted at the place of the original battery. Maybe we need to use right-angle connectors for the USB and GPS ports.

Am I right about this? Do you thing this extra power will be enough to keep the camera powered until it saves the last clip?

edit: Is it a mounting stud at the center, that keeps the two halves together? Or just some residue of the injection molding process, that can be safely cut away? If it can be removed, we can cram even more caps there :)
 
Peter Molnar said:
Thanks for the pics!

The flat supercap I linked above is 29.6mm x 23.6mm x 4.8mm , from the measurements it seems that even 3 of those stacked together (with the 29.6mm side facing the camera) would fit on the wider side of the cable holder, without touching the cable connectors or the mounting stud in the center. And at least one more of them could be fitted at the place of the original battery. Maybe we need to use right-angle connectors for the USB and GPS ports.

Am I right about this? Do you thing this extra power will be enough to keep the camera powered until it saves the last clip?

edit: Is it a mounting stud at the center, that keeps the two halves together? Or just some residue of the injection molding process, that can be safely cut away? If it can be removed, we can cram even more caps there :)
Click to expand...
the stud in the center looks like it's made to be screwed into the flat base, so it could be safely removed or sanded down. the wire cover is held on by 4 tabs that stick up from the edges of the flat base, but you could probably put a screw thru that hole/stud to eliminate rattles or prevent tampering.
 
The stud takes a screw, the clips hold it on regardless anyway, there's quite a bit of room in there but room is needed for cables also, plenty of room for a couple of 10f caps if you were thinking of building a Frankencam
 
So, in this pipeline, has it just left the ground and entered the pipe, or has it traveled almost all the way to the ship/refinery already? :)

That is what I'm waiting on now for this camera, a cap version as I know I need a cap in my cameras. I'm excited to at least know one is on its way eventually but sooner is always better than later. In the future of dashcams will we see the caps be more common do you think? I understand batteries will be easier from a development and testing standpoint as they are common and easy to toss any old battery and make a working dashcam, but caps are definitely superior and I hope they are soon the standard for new style dashcams. Caps are not expensive either, as I know that most of the cost of large car audio caps are markup.

I used to be able to get 1 Farad caps at company cost, the $150 caps were only $22 at actual cost to my company. And whoever was selling them to us was making money too! "Monster" brand caps were the type then.
 
Razer said:
...Caps are not expensive either, as I know that most of the cost of large car audio caps are markup.

I used to be able to get 1 Farad caps at company cost, the $150 caps were only $22 at actual cost to my company. And whoever was selling them to us was making money too! "Monster" brand caps were the type then.
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LOL anything with the name MONSTER on it, whether it's a cable, capacitor, or an "energy drink" is marked up so much that they can sell one, and then every 100 units after that is 100% profit.

monoprice is my anti-monster supplier of choice. dunno if they do car audio caps, but i don't have massive subs in my car, so don't need them. but now i do wonder how long a dashcam would run off one of those pringles-can-sized caps... lol
 
Ha, yes, MONSTER is the biggest ripoff around. Well, almost. AudioQuest is actually much worse, see this prime example below. I don't do subs either, but almost bought a big cap just to play with for the heck of it as I'm sure I could find fun stuff to do (or injure myself) with one. :)

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioqu...2383258&st=categoryid$abcat0107020&cp=1&lp=11

That is not the worst price either! They really should feel ashamed but I suppose they are laughing their way to a bank somewhere. I love Monoprice, I have a nice selection of the HD 27" monitors in the office for the AutoCad guys. Next they will want the 4k monitors, but that is ok as I want to play with them too!

I actually chatted with a guy at monoprice the other day suggesting that they make and support a dashcam. They tried to show me the action camera they make and I gave them some pointers on why it was not setup for dashcam work. If more people suggest it maybe it will happen someday as they were open to it and pretty happy to pass the suggesiton along. Said it was the best customer suggestion he'd got in a long time.
 
Peter Molnar said:
...

edit: Or maybe, we could use flat supercaps, instead of cylindrical ones, like: http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/docs/hq_pc10_ds_08122013.pdf
Click to expand...
That specification says:
DC Life at High Temperature (held continuously at Rated Voltage and Maximum Operating Temperature) 1,000 hours
Click to expand...
That is just 41 days of use if you use it at it's maximum operating temperature of 85 degrees C which as far as I know is fairly typical for a supercap. Lasts a lot longer at lower temperatures.

Are supercaps proven to last longer than batteries at high temperature?
 
capacitors aren't held at that high temp 24/7. it cools down at night, and of course while you're driving you probably have the a/c turned on when it's hot outside.

for reference, 85c = 185f. on a day where it was 107f outside and no clouds in the sky, i measured the interior temps of two nearly identical cars on the dealership lot i worked at (they were 2004 toyota solaras if you're curious). they had been parked right next to each other in full sun in the middle of the lot all day, with nobody touching them. the only shade they might have had would have come from a skinny little light pole. both were base models with no window tint or privacy glass. the only difference between them was one car was white and one was black; both had the same gray cloth interior. at around 4:00pm i opened them one at a time and measured the temps of things like the seats, dashboard, shifter and steering wheel using a non-contact infrared thermometer. the white car averaged about 140f and the black one 160f - the temps inside each car only varied by 2-3 degrees per surface. hot, yes, but certainly not 185. so that cap would probably last significantly longer in these temps, especially since it won't be constantly that hot.

anyway, one other huge difference between a cap and a lithium-based battery is that the cap will probably never catch on fire or overheat. i think that's probably the biggest selling point for people concerned with heat.
 
Nigel said:
That specification says:

That is just 41 days of use if you use it at it's maximum operating temperature of 85 degrees C which as far as I know is fairly typical for a supercap. Lasts a lot longer at lower temperatures.

Are supercaps proven to last longer than batteries at high temperature?
Click to expand...

"The supercapacitor can be charged and discharged virtually an unlimited number of times. Unlike the electrochemical battery, which has a defined cycle life, there is little wear and tear by cycling a supercapacitor. Nor does age affect the device, as it would a battery. Under normal conditions, a supercapacitor fades from the original 100 percent capacity to 80 percent in 10 years. Applying higher voltages than specified shortens the life. The supercapacitor functions well at hot and cold temperatures."

supercaps.png

Source: Battery University - BU-209: Supercapacitor
 
Dashmellow said:
"...Nor does age affect the device, as it would a battery. Under normal conditions, a supercapacitor fades from the original 100 percent capacity to 80 percent in 10 years. "
Click to expand...
Age does affect the device, as given in the table it has around a 10 year lifespan at 20 degrees C, however for every 10 degrees C increase in operating temperature the lifespan is halved - 30 = 5 years, 40=2.5 years, 50 = 15 months, 60=7 months, 70=100 days. Unlike a battery the capacitor is always operating, a battery only operates for 15 seconds each time power is lost. We should also remember that the inside of an operating camera, even when in parking mode is around 20C higher than the cabin temperature of the car.
 
batteries are always operating, just not at full current draw. they're also used to maintain user configuration settings as well as the time/date. yes, that's very minor, but it's not much different than the memory on a car stereo - station presets, EQ settings, etc. those can drain a comparatively massive car battery over the course of a month in some cases, so think of how that little dashcam's battery will last.
 
True, the quote states "Under normal conditions". In actual real world conditions in a vehicle however the expected lifetime of super-cap will far exceed your "formula".
 
Dashmellow said:
True, the quote states "Under normal conditions". In actual real world conditions in a vehicle however the expected lifetime of super-cap will far exceed your "formula".
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"My" formula for halving the lifespan for every 10 degrees C is a widely published fact about super capacitors.

What I was trying to ask is how much longer will a super capacitor last in a dashcam compared to a lipo battery, or alternatively how much longer will a lipo battery last than a super capacitor? Does anybody know for a fact or is it just guess work?
 
Nigel said:
What I was trying to ask is how much longer will a super capacitor last in a dashcam compared to a lipo battery, or alternatively how much longer will a lipo battery last than a super capacitor? Does anybody know for a fact or is it just guess work?
Click to expand...
the chart above shows 10-15yrs for the cap vs 5-10 for the battery.
 
The table I provided came originally from Maxwell Technologies, manufacturer of high quality ultra-capacitors. According to Maxwell, "Ultracapacitors will outlast most other electronic components in any given application, which is why they are the perfect power delivery device in the most demanding environments." - " An an ultracapacitor can meet an early demise if you really want it to -- though the list of things you can do to kill it is pretty limited."

While Maxwell fully acknowledges that higher temperatures can ultimately damage super-capactors and shorten their lifespan they state in their literature (including the above table) that as long as you are operating the device inside of its specified temperature range it will otherwise meet its stated lifespan.
 
The specification linked in post #41 is also from Maxwell and states a 41 day lifespan at the top of it's specified operating temperature range which is exactly in line with "my formula".
 
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