Using CF-100 rear camera to watch sides and back?

Now that's dedication! driving screws into your dashboard for a "temporary test setup"! :D

Even if the cams don't stay there it gives me additional mounting options for other cams and allows me to compare cams literally side-by-side without cluttering my windscreen (which has a huge mirror/sensor making cam mounting difficult).
My car will probably be close to 100000 miles around age five or six so it won't be worth much in a few years time. A few small screw holes in the dash top will be trivial compared to all the other mechanical and cosmetic wear and tear. I've tried many cars in recent years and I haven't found anything I like more than my current car so it's likely to be with me for many years. I own it outright so I'm not going to get into trouble.
 
A front cam is mostly a 'defensive' tool which will usually show whether you were driving appropriately. Rear and side cams are 'offensive' tools to show what others were doing and help pin the blame on someone else.

@2000rpm, I really like your multi-cam "panoramic" coverage scheme. It is a different, but similar approach to an idea proposed and discussed here on DCT quite some time ago about using two Mobius cameras, one on each A-pillar with the FOV intersecting in the middle for a wide panoramic view of the road.

I have to admit, I'm puzzled by your logic that a front camera is primarily a "defensive tool" to prove you were driving appropriately. Dash cams are that of course, but if someone veers into your path and causes an accident and is then captured by your front camera, why is that any more or less "defensive" or "offensive" than having a side or rear camera that captures what other cars are doing so as to "pin the blame". In addition, a rear camera could establish whether your braking behavior did or did not cause someone to rear end you, thereby making "that" camera a defensive tool too. I guess I've never really thought about whether a camera might be considered "offensive" or "defensive" but I think I would consider all dash cams, regardless of the direction they are facing to be defensive, much as I consider the multi-cam surveillance system on my home to be "defensive".
 

@2000rpm, I really like your multi-cam "panoramic" coverage scheme. It is a different, but similar approach to an idea proposed and discussed here on DCT quite some time ago about using two Mobius cameras, one on each A-pillar with the FOV intersecting in the middle for a wide panoramic view of the road.

Thanks. :)
I've been experimenting with it because some cars don't have any side windows other than those on the doors. The doors need to open and so do their windows, meaning no mounting options without interfering with door or window opening. 'Curtain' airbags leave no easy options for interior roof mounting. The only places left are the windscreen, dash-top and rear window so the angled cam approach seemed worth a try to see what it captured.

Some estimates I've made suggest that a single cam, in real-world use covers around 25% of everything going on around the car. *
One cam front and rear gives around 50% coverage. *
A cam front, rear and both sides gives 90-95% coverage. **
In cars where side cams aren't possible, a 45-degree angled pair in the front and rear manage around 75% coverage.

* Viewing angle of a lot of cams is grossly exaggerated.
** Four cams usually don't quite give 100% coverage due to some blind areas close to the car, especially along the sides of the vehicle - occasionally it's possible for a nearby motorbike, cyclist or pedestrian to be alongside but unseen by all four cams. Elimination of blind spots for 100% coverage would require a cam front and rear on both sides - six cams in total. Longer vehicles are problematic for blind spots with side cams and would be better having external cams mounted on the sides but looking forward or rearward.
 
** Four cams usually don't quite give 100% coverage due to some blind areas close to the car, especially along the sides of the vehicle - occasionally it's possible for a nearby motorbike, cyclist or pedestrian to be alongside but unseen by all four cams. Elimination of blind spots for 100% coverage would require a cam front and rear on both sides - six cams in total. Longer vehicles are problematic for blind spots with side cams and would be better having external cams mounted on the sides but looking forward or rearward.

I don't know where you get such notions that "Four cams usually don't quite give 100% coverage" but as someone who has been using four cameras (front, rear and sides) for quite some time I can state categorically that this is not true. In fact, 4 cams provide far more than 100% coverage. Technically, we are talking about 360 degree coverage with four cameras with appropriate FOV but they will generally provide far more than 360 degree coverage with a considerable amount of overlap. That's actually the beauty of it, really. I posted some examples of this about a year ago HERE (from three cams) but I will repost those images here for the purpose of this discussion. I also hope to post some newer images demonstrating this shortly from all four perspectives. There are no "blind areas close to the car"; on the contrary. Plus, I drive a pick-up truck, a so called "longer vehicle" as you put it.

Front-.jpg

right-rear.jpg

rear.jpg
 
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I don't know where you get such notions that "Four cams usually don't quite give 100% coverage"......

Below is a sketch of four cams with a wide field of view (110 degrees horizontal is pretty wide; 130-170 degree claims by some cams is pure fantasy). Close to the vehicle it is possible to 'lose' sight of things. Cams with an average field of view around 100 degrees have an even wider blind spot. The longer the vehicle you're driving, the larger your cam blind spots will be.

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Nearby vehicles can block the view of your side cam but not you as the driver's view because your side cam may be further back than your line of sight.

In the sketch below, a blue car turns into your side street and the red car following it 'flashes' for you to pull out. Your cam doesn't see the flash because its view is blocked by the blue car as it passes.
You pull out, the red car accelerates into you. You're now on the hook for 'injury' claims from its five occupants 'because you suddenly pulled out in front of the red car'. People make a good living from that kind of thing in some parts of the UK.

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Paired dash-top or top-of-windscreen cams angled at 45-50 degrees (so their combined view is panoramic) have a good chance of showing the lead-up to a 'crash for cash' scam, although they can't show the lead-up to a T-bone if the vehicle approaches rapidly or if you're stationary.
In the first set of pictures I posted, it's possible to see the small van approaching from my right which would be outside the field of view of a single front cam and which may be obscured from a side cam's view if there is a car alongside me.

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......In fact, 4 cams provide far more than 100% coverage. ....... There are no "blind areas close to the car"; on the contrary. Plus, I drive a pick-up truck, a so called "longer vehicle" as you put it.

The reason you manage 360 degree coverage is because:

1. The cams you have are among the widest view available and are not typical of most mainstream cams which have noticeably narrower field of view.

2. Your cams are all in close proximity of each other and relatively evenly spaced - perhaps 3ft apart.
In a passenger car the front and rear cams will be several feet apart and with side airbags and door opening to consider the side cams will need to be mounted in an A-pillar window (not present in all cars) or a C-pillar window (not present in all cars). That positions the side cam unequally between the front and rear cams which creates blind spots.
In the UK, pickups are not common. Large cars and vans are very common.
Below is a sketch of how different vehicle passenger compartment layouts can affect cam positions and create blind spots:

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I have to disagree about the statement regarding a side camera "being less likely to have important footage than front or rear". I nearly got T-Boned in a broadside collision when a guy ran a red light as I was traveling through an intersection. Luckily I was able to hit the accelerator and get out of the way just in the nick of time. My side camera caught what happened in detail but my front camera was essentially oblivious to the event. Similarly, a kid on a bicycle came speeding down a side street right into traffic in front of my vehicle causing me to do a heart stopping panic stop. The front camera would have only captured me running into the kid on the bike but my side camera captured him racing wildly down the side street right into the flow of traffic into the intersection without even pausing.

Having had "4 channel", 4 camera coverage in every direction for some time now I find it invaluable. Wouldn't be without them now. Hopefully 4 channel products will become practical at some point.

After some extremely casual and unscientific testing done with a friend in his larger vehicle last night on his driveway, I've settled on just installing the CF-100 in the standard arrangement of front & back (it arrived sooner than expected!). Found out it was likely a returned unit though since there was footage on the micro SD card and a very slight stain on the manual. I'll just save up some cash when possible and purchase some 1ch units for use as side cameras, since as 2000rpm mentioned, this is quite useful in the UK and particularly in the situation I face where the car can be approached from almost any angle.

I would definitely say I think 360 degree coverage is something I would like to maintain as it can show what causes you to take certain actions and what led up to events captured on the front or rear camera.


Very nice! Loving the panoramic view that set-up gives you and the footage is brilliant quality.
 
The reason you manage 360 degree coverage is because:

1. The cams you have are among the widest view available and are not typical of most mainstream cams which have noticeably narrower field of view.

2. Your cams are all in close proximity of each other and relatively evenly spaced - perhaps 3ft apart.
In a passenger car the front and rear cams will be several feet apart and with side airbags and door opening to consider the side cams will need to be mounted in an A-pillar window (not present in all cars) or a C-pillar window (not present in all cars). That positions the side cam unequally between the front and rear cams which creates blind spots.
In the UK, pickups are not common. Large cars and vans are very common.
Below is a sketch of how different vehicle passenger compartment layouts can affect cam positions and create blind spots:

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I really don't quite know what to make of or how to quite decipher the graphics you've posted but they appear to based on speculation, assumptions, and pet personal theories of how cameras in a vehicle would actually cover what is happening around one's car.

I hardly know where to begin.

So, speaking of "assumption", let's start with your statement: "

"The cams you have are among the widest view available and are not typical of most mainstream cams which have noticeably narrower field of view."

Where exactly did you come up with such a notion? That's simply not true. You might have thought to ask me before making such a remark.

My cameras are hardly among "among the widest view available". In fact, they are rather narrow in the scheme of things in the world of currently available dash cams.

Currently my array is:

Front - SG9665GC - 112 degrees FOV
Left facing - Mobius C2 - 131 degrees FOV
Right facing - Mobius C2 - 131 degrees FOV
Rear facing - Mobius B lens - 116 degrees FOV

Then you go on to make a definitive assumption regarding the positioning of my cameras.

"Your cams are all in close proximity of each other and relatively evenly spaced - perhaps 3 ft apart."

Based on what evidence?

I drive an extended cab pick-up truck and therefore the cameras are much farther apart than what you apparently assume. A typical two seater pick-up might be as you assume but today's double cab or extended pick-ups have interior space closer to that of a small sedan and my cameras are mounted at the top of the rear windows about where I would anticipate placing them in a car or SUV. (I actually have rear windows;))

You apparently "assume" blind spots that do not actually exist outside of your diagrams and make definitive statements about just how large such blind spots might be again without offering any sort of evidence.

For some reason you postulate and attempt to demonstrate in your speculative graphics that the camera coverages will not be able to overlap, but they in fact can, and do.

You also use vague statements such as, "it is possible". Well, I suppose any thing is possible but I prefer real world testing, experience and examples, whereas you appear to prefer theorizing and speculating.

While I would concede that a longer car may be different than a pick-up truck, that is indeed where those wider FOV lenses you speak of would come into play. There is no reason why four cameras cannot offer adequate all-around coverage of a vehicle as long as the cameras are mountable and properly placed. I believe the "blind spot" issue to be essentially a red herring for all practical purposes.

So, here are some further "real world" examples of my four cameras listed above providing full 360 degree coverage around my vehicle with a significant amount of overlap beyond 360º and virtually no blind spots, even very close .

I feel well protected here for full surrounding evidentiary capture should something unfortunate occur.

frontA23.jpg

leftA2.jpg

rightA22.jpg

rearA2.jpg

360-annotated2.jpg
 
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Close to the vehicle it is possible to 'lose' sight of things. Cams with an average field of view around 100 degrees have an even wider blind spot.

Huh?

Here are some side cam examples showing just how "close to the vehicle" one can capture while still have more than adequate "road" coverage.
There is no apparent "losing sight of things". - Significant overlap with the front and rear cameras and very close coverage. No blind spots. Close parking coverage is one of the things I most appreciate about my side facing cameras.

This is the Mobius B lens in an earlier installation. The C2 lens Mobius vastly improves this coverage and with even lower possibility of blind spots.
leftmobius copy.jpg

side1a.jpg

side-Mobi copy.jpg
 
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@Dashmellow

Well, maybe I'm stupid, but I and others would be delighted to receive your expertise in fitting discreet side cams in my car, my wife's car and other popular cars, such that the cams:

1. have a good view - four cams covering all round the car
2. don't interfere with side curtain airbags
3. don't interfere with door opening
4. don't interfere with window opening
5. don't 'impose' themselves significantly on other occupants of the car.

In a large proportion of cars I just can't see how it can be done.

Why don't you start with the most popular medium size car in the UK in 2015 - here's a dealership sales advert with 20 photos of a modern Ford Focus > link <

Then move on to the second most popular - a VW Golf > link <

And the third most popular - a Nissan Qashqai > link <

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if i'm not mistaken, all of those vehicles have deep window frames on the rear quarter windows (in the hatch/wagon versions of the focus at least), and it's super easy to mount a mobius at the top of those. in his pickup (toyota tacoma "access cab") the rear doors have very deep frames as well - i had a tacoma access cab myself till a few weeks ago when i traded it in. i was planning to mount my A118's there as side cams but never got around to it. as for running the wire - it's not hard to feed the power cord through the OEM wiring loom protectors in the hinge. it just takes a little time and patience. here's a pic of the back seat and door (they're suicide doors) of the 2005-2015 tacoma access cab (the new body style 2016's are similar):

tacoma_rearseating.jpg

another thing to keep in mind is that every vehicle is different. the tacoma doesn't have side curtain airbags so it's not an issue there. some vehicles have deep window frames, some don't, but have other areas a camera could be mounted to. and newer, smaller solutions are sure to come on the market in the future.

there will never be a true "one size fits all" application here.
 
The Focus and Qashqai have C-pillar 'porthole' windows.
The Golf doesn't have 'porthole' windows in either A or C pillar.

However, rear-side/flank visibility of modern hatchbacks is often awful and at sharply angled junctions in the UK where traffic is approaching at 50-70mph from your 7-o-clock position or 8-o-clock you will need those porthole windows to see if it's safe to pull out.
Country villages may well have such awkward junctions (30-40mph limit) and some island junctions on major roads can be sharply angled too (50-70mph limit).

Additionally, the thick C-pillar and small size of the window severely restricts the ability of the cam to make full use of its field of view, even if the cam can be mounted fairly close to the glass.
Many cams are restricted to only one or two mount types which often sets them far back from the glass, causing even more loss of field of view. Even cams with multiple options for 1/4" screw threaded mounts can still be difficult to find a good position.

The cam's restricted field of view when fitted in the C-pillar porthole allows a reasonably large blind spot beside the driver, A-pillar and front wheel (hence my earlier comment about four cams giving 90-95% coverage in most vehicles). Being several feet behind the driver, the C-pillar cams also don't show what the driver sees at T-junctions and roundabouts because very often there will be a car alongside.
 
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Today's experiment.

Front: JooVuu X, 2560*1080p, 'wide'
Rear: JooVuu X, 2560*1080p, 'wide'
Right A-pillar: Mobius C2, 1920*1080p, 'narrow'
Left A-pillar: Mobius C2, 1920*1080p, 'narrow'

(little point using 'wide' on the side cams because the edges of the porthole block its view and there's a moderate loss of detail using wide compared to narrow, although JooVuu doesn't lose detail in wide view because of the extra 640 pixels of width)

There's still a small blind spot near the rear doors and C-pillar, hence my claim of 90-95% coverage from four cams in most cars. If my side cams were peeping through the C-pillar there would be a blind spot beside the front doors and A-pillars. Better to have cams in the A-pillar portholes (if present) because what they see is more indicative of what the driver sees, and they have a chance to see along the road to left and right at junctions whereas C-pillar cams are too far back.


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@Dashmellow

Well, maybe I'm stupid, but I and others would be delighted to receive your expertise in fitting discreet side cams in my car, my wife's car and other popular cars, such that the cams:

1. have a good view - four cams covering all round the car
2. don't interfere with side curtain airbags
3. don't interfere with door opening
4. don't interfere with window opening
5. don't 'impose' themselves significantly on other occupants of the car.

In a large proportion of cars I just can't see how it can be done.

Why don't you start with the most popular medium size car in the UK in 2015 - here's a dealership sales advert with 20 photos of a modern Ford Focus > link <

Then move on to the second most popular - a VW Golf > link <

And the third most popular - a Nissan Qashqai > link <

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I've been wanting to reply to your post but I've had no internet service since very early this morning. (Edit: Yikes!, now that I'm finally back online I've learned that I was probably effected by today's massive DDoS outage on the East coast :eek:).

Anyway, I feel like you are basically changing the subject here as our debate over the last several posts has been about whether or not 4 cameras can or cannot provide full 360 degree coverage around one's vehicle which I believe is essentially doable and have attempted to demonstrate. The discussion of which cars one might or might not be able to mount lateral facing cameras seems an entirely different matter. That was why I said above, "There is no reason why four cameras cannot offer adequate all-around coverage of a vehicle as long as the cameras are mountable and properly placed".

Anyway, I think @Gibson99 sort of picked up the slack in my absence by explaining about the fixed rear recessed "porthole" windows in my Toyota Tacoma which make it practical for me to do this.

I do agree, many cars make the installation of lateral facing cameras rather difficult or even impossible and that is the challenge for any kind of universal solution for this. My belief is that a clever DIYer can come up with potential solutions, but DIY isn't for everyone.

Going back to @Chris232's original post I can envision using two CF-100 cameras to achieve 4 sided coverage for his purpose with the primary cameras front and rear and the two miniature lower resolution cameras mounted laterally.

Edit: To elaborate on the photo @Gibson99 posted here is how one of the lateral facing Mobius cams is mounted in my Tacoma. (the other side is a similar but lower profile DIY mount I haven't bothered to document yet.) (The dark tinted glass they are mounted behind make the cameras quite stealthy from the outside.)

Mobius-side-mount.jpg
 
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it's 112° horizontal actually so even less and it still gives the coverage

That makes sense now that you mention it but wasn't it originally listed as 120º?

Edit: Just checked the StreetGuardian.info web site and it says - "Lens: 7 Element Metal body all Glass lens, 135° diagonal viewing angle. Maybe you need to correct that?
 
That makes sense now that you mention it but wasn't it originally listed as 120º?

may have been, can't recall exactly but if it was then it was a typo at the time, according to our lens supplier this is a 165° lens which is the numbers you'd expect to see quoted if it was a Chinese seller (easy to see why customers get confused) but the actual FOV values achieved when used with the IMX322 are 135° Diagonal, 112° Horizontal
 
may have been, can't recall exactly but if it was then it was a typo at the time, according to our lens supplier this is a 165° lens which is the numbers you'd expect to see quoted if it was a Chinese seller (easy to see why customers get confused) but the actual FOV values achieved when used with the IMX322 are 135° Diagonal, 112° Horizontal

Sounds like that should be clarified for the potential buyer regarding the horizontal coverage one can expect.

Edit: Anyway, thanks I've edited the images and post to reflect the correct FOV.
 
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