Any new development or dash cam in the works?

[kamkar]

Rick told me that remote systems was hardly selling, at least in most markets, as i recall AU and US they barely sold any.

Why i dont know, from my perspective i cant really see any way around remote systems at least in the near / far future, sure you can build a conventional system and cram one of the really small M2 drives in there, but it will just be more stuff cooking in the sun.

 

[DT MI]

Rick told me that remote systems was hardly selling, at least in most markets, as i recall AU and US they barely sold any.

Why i dont know,...

I suspect it may have had a lot to do with installation. 2 camera cables, GPS and power cables is a lot to route, manage and hide - plus finding a good place to put the central unit that's discrete but accessible. Add to that a remote 'lock' button and external microphone and the whole process was likely more than the average dash cam buyer wanted to deal with.

 

[Dashmellow]

I suspect it may have had a lot to do with installation. 2 camera cables, GPS and power cables is a lot to route, manage and hide - plus finding a good place to put the central unit that's discrete but accessible. Add to that a remote 'lock' button and external microphone and the whole process was likely more than the average dash cam buyer wanted to deal with.

All good points. Those were considerations for me along with the high price.

 

[kamkar]

Yeah.
The install was not bad though, but yes there was more than usual cables to do, but as long as you dident want to put the main unit within sight ( cuz why would you do that ) then it was quite manageable i feel.
For a while i just had the main unit dangling in its wires across the center console right behind the gear stick, i later moved it to the lower B pillar and as that was in front of a in seat airbag i just put it under the driver seat.
The bulk of cables being hidden in the lower part of the center console in the dash.

The only downside i personally took from the experience was, the G-sensor, well if you do not have the main unit attached to something rigid, then how can smaller shocks be caught by it, so my feeling was that such a system need a remote G-sensor too, or maybe put that in with the GPS antenna you put on the windscreen.
Putting it with the wired event button / microphone, not going to work as most likely that will be placed on something not that rigid like cabin plastics.

 

[Nigel]

Why i dont know,

I think most of the people who might have bought it didn't because they wanted 4K, which is still impossible on a remote camera today. The 2K main cameras don't have many heat issues anyway.

 

[kamkar]

I got my DR in summer 2020, so i figure there was 4K out there back then, as i recall in 1080p the IMX 291 was still the rage.
Granted i have wanted 4K for a while too, but not so bad that i upped and gotten me one, well aside for the dride 4K and that sure as hell have not been a success.

Whether or not it is possible to do 4K remotely i dont know, i would assume so but i am guessing.
But the way things are going, with somewhat of a pixel race, and to some extent also a channel race, i dont see how they can keep making conventional systems, CUZ while they are soon doing 3 nanometer processes and so on, i dont think future dashcams will run any colder, so something have to be done.
Also storage, while there are super fast micro SD cards, i really hope things do not go there, or say multiple SD cards like one for each channel, so the way i see it only M2 drives are the way to go, maybe a regular SATA drive if size are no problem.

I assume all kind of vision cameras on modern cars, and even Lidar ASO, are all remote cameras in some sense, i dont think there are any processing going on in the unit itself.

 

[ozguy]

Their highly responsive and popular customer support and generous replacement policy (that was basically built into the higher price of the cameras) tended to minimize (and sometimes even cover up) complaints about the issues and problems that would arise such as the chronic going out-of-focus issues which are still denied despite all the public evidence.

Nevertheless, they made basically decent products and were particularly well liked because of Ric's affable presence on this and other platforms

Yep, people will pay more for highly responsive and popular customer support. Very true.

 

[ozguy]

, i dont think future dashcams will run any colder, so something have to be done.

So what is the answer? Better heat sinks? more Ventilation? 2 seperate cams for front and rear with the rear channel less feature rich?
This is the key...Reliability, along with first class LOCAL dealer/store support from the company.
If cams keep having issues, then no one will recommend them...but in my opinion, people will help support the brand and its future innovation with GREAT support that people dont have to wait around for, while they drive around in a car with no camera...waiting for 6 weeks to replace.

 

[Dashmellow]

Yep, people will pay more for highly responsive and popular customer support. Very true.

I don't exactly know if people will "pay more" for good customer support or not but I believe Ric's approach to providing that kind of support influenced other dash cam manufacturers doing business on this platform and this has benefited everyone, including sales for those businesses.

 

[ozguy]

I don't exactly know if people will "pay more" for good customer support or not but I believe Ric's approach to providing that kind of support influenced other dash cam manufacturers doing business on this platform and this has benefited everyone, including sales for those businesses.

Thanks for the reply. Honest statement, and I am only speaking from my sales experience...I sold a product the other day to a customer and I asked him, why he went with us...his answer...
"I purchased a cheaper product and it lasted 2 years and fell apart and when I tried to get support, the manufacturer didn't want to know me. You guys have great local support and only deal with products that a very reliable and the warranty is 5 years. Even though your product is double the price of the other POS I purchased, I don't want to be jumping through hoops."

 

[DT MI]

So what is the answer? Better heat sinks? more Ventilation? 2 seperate cams for front and rear with the rear channel less feature rich?

The issue is a matter of physics. Higher resolution = more bits to process. More bits = more processing power required. More processing power + more bits being pushed around = more heat generated. Combine that with a general desire for smaller and smaller form factors that have less capability for heat dissipation and you see where the problem lies.

There is only so much that can be done using passive cooling and we're close to, or at, that limit - witnessed by the number of cameras that are having heat issues as resolution goes up and number of channels increase.

 

[Agie]

The issue is a matter of physics. Higher resolution = more bits to process. More bits = more processing power required. More processing power + more bits being pushed around = more heat generated. Combine that with a general desire for smaller and smaller form factors that have less capability for heat dissipation and you see where the problem lies.

There is only so much that can be done using passive cooling and we're close to, or at, that limit - witnessed by the number of cameras that are having heat issues as resolution goes up and number of channels increase.

Needs to be more power efficient processes on the processors and other components too. I know I beat that like a dead horse but honestly it should be possible if we have things like outdoor security cameras toiling away in adverse conditions as well..

 

[kamkar]

So what is the answer

Well for traditional systems you cant really go better cooling, all you are left with is a regular ALU profile slapped on top of the chip.
Okay you can increase the size of that chunk of ALU, but as we have seen in the Viofo A229 PRO it can hardly be any larger without making the camera body larger too, and few would like that.
Only but would be the frore airjet fans, but even then i think you would at least have to remote the MIC from the main camera body even if they are just 21 dba, also i am not entirely sure then it is enough as i recall they can handle 5watts of heat at the expense of 1 watt of power for the fan.
Also if you go with these frore fans, well i am sure they are horrible for passive performance in parking guard mode, or you will have to run the 1 watt fan here also increasing power use.

I just feel no matter what conventional dashcam design it is a dead end, and you for sure will not be able to increase system performance ( higher bitrates / higher resolution / more computational power to handle better compression formats, and more channels )
Going with a larger remote main unit, you can use a heat pipe or vapor chamber cooler, which at least have some passive performance, and you can still add a conventional fan to increase performance with active cooling.
And the main unit will most likely be out of the sun, which mean a lot on a sunny day and you expecting to get parking guard.

 

[ozguy]

Well for traditional systems you cant really go better cooling, all you are left with is a regular ALU profile slapped on top of the chip.
Okay you can increase the size of that chunk of ALU, but as we have seen in the Viofo A220 PRO it can hardly be any larger without making the camera body larger too, and few would like that.
Only but would be the frore airjet fans, but even then i think you would at least have to remote the MIC from the main camera body even if they are just 21 dba, also i am not entirely sure then it is enough as i recall they can handle 5watts of heat at the expense of 1 watt of power for the fan.
Also if you go with these frore fans, well i am sure they are horrible for passive performance in parking guard mode, or you will have to run the 1 watt fan here also increasing power use.

I just feel no matter what conventional dashcam design it is a dead end, and you for sure will not be able to increase system performance ( higher bitrates / higher resolution / more computational power to handle better compression formats, and more channels )
Going with a larger remote main unit, you can use a heat pipe or vapor chamber cooler, which at least have some passive performance, and you can still add a conventional fan to increase performance with active cooling.
And the main unit will most likely be out of the sun, which mean a lot on a sunny day and you expecting to get parking guard.

So, Is the answer to have a main seperate box EG: under seat...then have the channels coming out of that seperate box with attached cameras? The main box can have 2 fans etc... I know this may not be needed for people who live in Antarctic like weather conditions and countries..lol

 

[kamkar]

well even up here in little old Denmark, summers where 30 - 32 deg C are about as bad as it get ( a few days during summer though this summer not even 1 of those days ) then a car still get blast furnace hot while parked in the sun.
I just assume a better cooler + no direct exposure got to be a lot better than sitting there on the glass in the sun cooking with just a hunk of ALU to keep things cool.

I assume you could also make the camera units wifi like the dride 4K claim it will ( we have not yet seen the rear camera for that ) then you still need 1 wire to the cameras to power them, but it will not come from the main box in that case.
I think from the main box or from the fuse box / hard wire kit dont matter much, i would prefer to not use wifi, though it might be a cool option for the people that want to put a #3 or maybe #5 camera way out back on their RV / camper or other larger rig.

 

[DT MI]

Needs to be more power efficient processes on the processors and other components too. ...

Electrons moving through a conductor generate heat due to resistance. The more electrons the more heat. The only solution is to develop a 'zero resistance' conductor - which so far as I know can only be achieved at extremely low temperatures.

...but honestly it should be possible if we have things like outdoor security cameras toiling away in adverse conditions as well..

Those cameras are generally low resolution (i.e. low bit rate) and have the advantage of being a much larger form factor made from different materials both contributing to better heat dissipation. They are also not mass market consumer products which are driven to a great degree by cost considerations.

 

[Agie]

Electrons moving through a conductor generate heat due to resistance. The more electrons the more heat. The only solution is to develop a 'zero resistance' conductor - which so far as I know can only be achieved at extremely low temperatures.


Those cameras are generally low resolution (i.e. low bit rate) and have the advantage of being a much larger form factor made from different materials both contributing to better heat dissipation. They are also not mass market consumer products which are driven to a great degree by cost considerations.

Lol wut physics lessons

Yes but as technology progresses there will be more 4k and above security cameras. If we're starting to see heatsinks in dash cams then either we're hitting the ceiling of what's possible , or more efficient solutions are on the way ..... I'm banking on the latter.

 

[Agie]

Well for traditional systems you cant really go better cooling, all you are left with is a regular ALU profile slapped on top of the chip.
Okay you can increase the size of that chunk of ALU, but as we have seen in the Viofo A229 PRO it can hardly be any larger without making the camera body larger too, and few would like that.
Only but would be the frore airjet fans, but even then i think you would at least have to remote the MIC from the main camera body even if they are just 21 dba, also i am not entirely sure then it is enough as i recall they can handle 5watts of heat at the expense of 1 watt of power for the fan.
Also if you go with these frore fans, well i am sure they are horrible for passive performance in parking guard mode, or you will have to run the 1 watt fan here also increasing power use.

I just feel no matter what conventional dashcam design it is a dead end, and you for sure will not be able to increase system performance ( higher bitrates / higher resolution / more computational power to handle better compression formats, and more channels )
Going with a larger remote main unit, you can use a heat pipe or vapor chamber cooler, which at least have some passive performance, and you can still add a conventional fan to increase performance with active cooling.
And the main unit will most likely be out of the sun, which mean a lot on a sunny day and you expecting to get parking guard.

That's the thing we're seeing vapor chamber and other cooler solutions for smartphones so I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing them in applications such as dash cams at some stage

 

[Dashmellow]

Canon claims to have developed a one inch 4K sensor that can deliver more than 24 stops of dynamic range at 30 fps. God only knows how long this technology might take to find its way into dash cams but it would be pretty cool !!

Canon Claims To Have Developed a Sensor With 24 Stops of Dynamic Range

Canon has developed a new 1” backside illuminated sensor that is capable of capturing 24.6 stops of dynamic range in 4K, according to the manufacturer. For co

www.cined.com

"Conventional ultra-HDR methods rely on taking multiple exposures and synthesizing them into a single image, usually in camera. That technique can produce motion artefacts and blurring when dealing with moving objects.
The method Canon has developed to deal with this problem allows each of the 736 regions of the sensor to be exposed independently to the optimal exposure time based on the brightness level."

 

[kamkar]

So ? that Canon sensor must be global shutter and not rolling.