2021 Climate Change

[DT MI]

...these cars sometimes don't have enough juice to complete their races.

At least 2 of the Formula E races I saw they had 'pit stops' of a sort - they changed cars at about the halfway point to address that. Not quite the same as what happens during ICE racing where the pit crew actually does 'stuff' and a mistake can affect the outcome as much as a driver error.

I wonder how long it would take a pit crew to swap out a 1600kg battery pack in pit row as compared to splashing in about 20 gallons of racing fuel/alcohol?

 

[kamkar]

I think some years ago a E car was in the experimental class at le mans, and got a battery swap in the pits, but for sure the pit stops got to be a lot longer than 10 seconds or what ever it is for a fluid-burner.
In the future driver jumping from 1 car to another in pit stops might be what we are going to see, but then that probably put on a even larger logistics effort and what emissions you save in the race being electric are probably lost in increased between race transport emissions.

Imagine loosing your 1600 KG snap on battery down the Mulsanne strait at +300 KMh

 

[kamkar]

American / Danish Fisker is launching the Ocean SUV.

 

[Dashmellow]

I wonder how long it would take a pit crew to swap out a 1600kg battery pack in pit row as compared to splashing in about 20 gallons of racing fuel/alcohol?

I thought about that when I posted about the possibility of E class pit stops. I imagine some sort of mobile cantilevered crane device that could lift a battery module out of the car and an identical cantilevered crane at the ready that would move in to drop in a new one. With a plug-in design I'm guessing such a procedure could happen rather quickly. It may be a lot of fun to watch as these new technologies and techniques develop as the racing class matures.

EDIT: Something akin to one of these would do the job. They will handle up to 5,000 lbs or more.

 

[Dashmellow]

American / Danish Fisker is launching the Ocean SUV.

Another interesting new electric is the LUCID AIR. It was recently cited as "Car of the Year" by MotorTrend Magazine.

https://www.lucidmotors.com/air

He Helped Build Tesla. Now He’s Gunning for It.​

 

[kamkar]

IMO i like SUV, and not least since in the EV flavor all that weight down low, will actually do wonders for a SUV subjected to the so called "moose maneuver" so they will probably stay upright.
Okay then the SUV are not the most aerodynamic shape, but since you drive on elf farts and electrical unicorn wonders it should not matter much.

I just learned the much praised Danish capitol, and its green ambitions,,,,, well they probably should not have that praise due to the more than creative way they come up with their numbers.
Not that i am surprised, noithing good dwell in the Danish capitol.

 

[Nigel]

Imagine loosing your 1600 KG snap on battery down the Mulsanne strait at +300 KMh

More of an issue is when someone else hits it!

The amount of damage is related to weight, F1 was reasonably safe when the cars were only 600 Kg, with the addition of hybrid batteries they are having safety issues such as being too heavy for the safety barriers, an extra tonne would make them unacceptable at the speeds they do:

 

[DT MI]

I thought about that when I posted about the possibility of E class pit stops. I imagine some sort of mobile cantilevered crane device that could lift a battery module out of the car and an identical cantilevered crane at the ready that would move in to drop in a new one. With a plug-in design I'm guessing such a procedure could happen rather quickly. It may be a lot of fun to watch as these new technologies and techniques develop as the racing class matures...

Carrying the thought process a bit further I imagine the logistics for endurance events would be especially 'interesting'. I'm sure the battery modules will be depleted much faster than they can be recharged given the demands placed on them in competition. This then raises the issue of how many can a team have, what charging equipment will be allowed (if any), centralized charging stations, etc. A whole plethora of secondary issues would have to be addressed.

 

[kamkar]

Chinese brand Nio are actually offering replaceable batteries, and a infrastructure to do the swaps ( 5 minute if no que there )
In Norway they will have 20 battery swap stations in a year, they also offer upgrade of batteries, and of course repair of damaged battery cells, and you can do 600 Kwh free charging on your subscription every month.

The Nio ES8.

 

[kamkar]

weight / speed.

Indeed.
In my air rifle i can shoot a pellet at 956 FPS ( 13.43 grain ) ( 27 Food pound of energy ), going down to a lighter 10.34 grain pellet and it suddenly move at 1050 FPS ( 25 food pound of energy ) with the same 100 BAR kick in the B-hind.
Not scary numbers but not something i am going to offer my ass up for a target
I could also up to the about heaviest .177 pellets of 16 - 17 grains and 1000 or so FPS speeds, that would mean hitting a lot harder.

 

[Dashmellow]

Carrying the thought process a bit further I imagine the logistics for endurance events would be especially 'interesting'. I'm sure the battery modules will be depleted much faster than they can be recharged given the demands placed on them in competition. This then raises the issue of how many can a team have, what charging equipment will be allowed (if any), centralized charging stations, etc. A whole plethora of secondary issues would have to be addressed.

When I was perusing YouTube videos of Formula E racing deciding which ones to post in this thread there was a race where most of the cars ran out of juice in the final stretch and the one that still had power won the race.

After a brief search I can 't seem to find it again but I keep looking.

Yeah, there are all kinds of interesting variables, issues and possible rules that could be applied to E racing. I'm especially fascinated by "attack mode" where the drivers get 35 kilowatts of extra power for four minutes at a time when they get enough votes from the crowd via a dedicated smartphone app.

 

[DT MI]

I'm especially fascinated by "attack mode" where the drivers get 35 kilowatts of extra power for four minutes at a time when they get enough votes from the crowd via a dedicated smartphone app.

I almost gagged when I first heard that. Terrible idea that will turn a competitive sporting event into nothing more than a popularity contest. I sincerely hope that idea finds a quick and painful death.

 

[Dashmellow]

I almost gagged when I first heard that. Terrible idea that will turn a competitive sporting event into nothing more than a popularity contest. I sincerely hope that idea finds a quick and painful death.

I have mixed feelings about the idea and I take your point. I like that it personally engages the audience in the outcome of the race and their favorite drivers. It reminds me of betting odds in horse racing. From what I've seen so far each driver has a decent enough following to level the playing field.

Aside from that though, the concept of attack mode with extra power for four minutes fascinates me and so perhaps the criteria for achieving attack mode might be some other factor?

 

[kamkar]

Yeah i am not on board with that either, i think the cars should be all the same, and so the winner will be the best driver.
When michael schumacher was doing his thing i stopped watching F1 as there was next to no doubt who would be the winner or for that matter second or third.
I do think that F1 is the king class, and really there should be no limitations, but then if you dont the team that can throw the most money at engineers will be the winner, and if they are good they probably dont even need the #1 driver to prove that.

Then again is also pain me to say so as, leveling the playing field in this manner is about as socialist as it get

And they have tried a lot over the years, i remember the F1 cars with 4 front wheels, and the cars with active down force literally strapping a vaccumcleaner to the car sucking it down.
The good old days when a few drivers died every year, and it was not good due to that, it was good due to the competitiveness of the sport.

 

[DT MI]

I have mixed feelings about the idea and I take your point. I like that it personally engages the audience in the outcome of the race and their favorite drivers. It reminds me of betting odds in horse racing....

Then allow betting - fans are engaged without affecting the actual competition.

...perhaps the criteria for achieving attack mode might be some other factor?

It would have to be implemented in such a manner as to allow all drivers to get it based on performance within the competitive arena. Maybe something along the lines of season points leader gets 4 minutes, 2nd thru 5th get 3.5 minutes, etc. Whatever form it takes has to be objective versus subjective (who has the cutest mustache/beard, best graphics on the car, most fan votes, etc.).

 

[Dashmellow]

Then allow betting - fans are engaged without affecting the actual competition.


It would have to be implemented in such a manner as to allow all drivers to get it based on performance within the competitive arena. Maybe something along the lines of season points leader gets 4 minutes, 2nd thru 5th get 3.5 minutes, etc. Whatever form it takes has to be objective versus subjective (who has the cutest mustache/beard, best graphics on the car, most fan votes, etc.).

Yeah, thinking about this further I basically agree with you. I think they are trying to engage people with this new form of car racing, one that is very tech heavy and as they like to say, "there's an app for that".

It could also well be that when the battery technology improves the whole concept of allotting four minutes of extra power may become a moot point.

As E racing becomes more mainstream there are a great many possibilities that will make the sport interesting in new ways. It is a very young endeavor at this point. Even now, the connectivity between the drivers and their crew as well as the audience and possibly even the other drivers adds much to the overall experience for everyone involved.

 

[DT MI]

I think they are trying to engage people with this new form of car racing,

I'm sure that's a primary motivation - it's new and they want to draw fans to it. What better way to do that than giving them a mechanism to impact the outcome.

 

[HonestReview]

I believe the Rivian is another new contender to the EV market. The problem right now is distance offered by these cars and charging infrastructures. Gasoline powered vehicles still have a significant edge on EVs. Hybrids offer a middle ground, but obviously still rely upon Gasoline. For EV's to replace Gasoline Vehicles, charge times need to be reasonably quick, distances need to match or surpass gasoline, and prices to charge reasonable.

Let's say you are taking a 1600 KM (1000 mile) drive. On a Gasoline powered car, that might be two to two and a half tanks of gas. So you stop for 15 or 20 minutes, walk around, etc and fuel up. You've lost an Hour refueling and stretching your legs.

Now let's take a Tesla 3. Say the range is 500KM (300 miles). Charge time is about an hour. It's going to take 3.5 charges before you make it the same distance as fuel. That's 3.5x hrs and 3.5x longer than fuel. And of course, you're not going anywhere near the 500KM (300miles) for fear of being stuck without being near the next charging station.

So EV technology is improving but not quite there yet.

 

[Dashmellow]

The Tesla Model S has a range of 405 miles. Other Tesla models will achieve between 303 amd 358 miles. The LUCID AIR EDITION R has a range of 520 miles!

An absolute triumph of efficiency, Lucid Air achieves 520 miles of range.​

"The Tesla Supercharger is the fastest charging option when you're away from home, allowing you to charge your car up to 200 miles in 15 minutes. Designed to get you charged and back on the road as quickly as possible, we own and operate 30,000 global Superchargers that are accessible on a 24/7 basis, located on major routes near convenient amenities."

 

[HonestReview]

The Tesla Model S has a range of 405 miles. Other Tesla models will achieve between 303 amd 358 miles. The LUCID AIR EDITION R has a range of 520 miles!

An absolute triumph of efficiency, Lucid Air achieves 520 miles of range.​

Tesla Model S has a range of 412 Miles (674 KM), but comes at a price of $91,190 (Long Range) or $131,190 for the sportier plaid. Unfortunately, I don't think that's within reach of most people at the given moment. https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s

But it's definitely a step in the right direction, proving over time, that EV's will be competitive. But that time isn't quite here, with the technology being super expensive, and charging stations lacking wide spread distribution. I.E. You aren't going to find a charging station as often as a gasoline / petrol station. And then you still have to contend with charge times. Which can take up to 1 hr per charge.

Unfortunately, the Lucid Air R (Dream Edition) which achieves 520 miles (842KM) is $169,000. Pretty much out of the price range of all but the wealthy.

Unlike a lot of manufacturers, who put the highest-performing model at the top of the price ladder, Lucid will give both Dream Editions the same exact starting price: $169,000.

The 2022 Lucid Air Dream Edition to Be Offered In R (Range) and P (Performance) Guises

And guess what the price difference between the R and P versions is.

www.motortrend.com

Again, like the Tesla S, the Lucid Air R is a great proof of concept that we're making progress. But until these cars are affordable and comparable to gasoline models, adoption will still be "niche". Along with the need for quick and reliable charging stations.

General Note: For comparative purposes: I know this is dated, but the average American has a savings of $40,000 (2016). I don't think a majority of people could afford to shell out $90,000 or $169,000 on a depreciating asset (car).

Average American savings balance by age, household size, and education level

Discover the average savings account balance for American families. You can see how factors like household size or education level impact savings balances.

www.businessinsider.com