Ambarella A2, A5, A7 and A9 Processors

[jokiin]

I am just waiting for the Chinese to come out with some of the Ambarella A5 or A7 processor based cameras instead of continuing to make different models with the A2 processor.

there are about, but at the moment they are still a little buggy, within the next few months you should see some development on A5 based solutions

 

[Mtz]

But can you tell us which is the main improvement for the A5?
Until now I see more people want better image in low light but I think this is depending first on the quality of lens module.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

But can you tell us which is the main improvement for the A5?
Until now I see more people want better image in low light but I think this is depending first on the quality of lens module.

enjoy,
Mtz

the lens plays a part but there is still limitations in the A2 platform, the A5 will offer much better low light performance when used with a WDR sensor (wide dynamic range) as it has the processing power to support it, the A2 can do better than what a lot of suppliers offer as they generally use a lower grade CMOS sensor and lens but even with good quality components it still has its limitations, the A5 certainly improves on this

you'll possibly see some of the entry level players weeded out by the A5 solution, initially at least, the SDK for the A2 platform is free, the SDK for the A5 has to be purchased, in time I guess there'll be some public solutions available to factories but given the majority are busy trying to make products cheaper and cheaper their focus on low end product pulls them away from something like this where there's an upfront cost to participate in this market segment

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

OK, thanks for the information. When you will have some sample video please show it to us.
I read the WDR is good when backlight so I don't know how much it will help the low light conditions, but maybe against city lights or opposite headlights or maybe I hope for the reflecting license numbers problems.

The perfect firmware for me is the one which can provide real automatic different settings for night mode. And I imagine this can be done based on some light sensor, or using a calculated daylight depending on timezone setting. Or the last choice, user to set the hours for the night time, for example from 20:00 to 06:00. Of course this setting is not perfect and maybe once a month the user must to adjust that values depending on season night duration.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

OK, thanks for the information. When you will have some sample video please show it to us.
I read the WDR is good when backlight so I don't know how much it will help the low light conditions, but maybe against city lights or opposite headlights or maybe I hope for the reflecting license numbers problems.

The perfect firmware for me is the one which can provide real automatic different settings for night mode. And I imagine this can be done based on some light sensor, or using a calculated daylight depending on timezone setting. Or the last choice, user to set the hours for the night time, for example from 20:00 to 06:00. Of course this setting is not perfect and maybe once a month the user must to adjust that values depending on season night duration.

enjoy,
Mtz

the night time video with WDR on the A5 is noticeably better than the A2 even with good CMOS and lens, all else is much the same from a video quality perspective

the night settings are possibly adjustable via GPS time although this maybe not ideal given the difference between summer and winter season depending on what part of the world you're in, in Australia the difference between sunset in summer and winter can be almost 5 hours different, personally I leave night mode on all the time as it doesn't make a lot of difference during the day, if the difference in the settings were more pronounced then an automatic day/night mode based on time might be more beneficial, the idea is worth investigating though

the light sensor method may also be suitable, the A5 platform opens up a lot more possibilities so time will tell what will come of that

some solutions use software to artificially bump up the exposure values for night use, in my experience this leads to a grainy and sometimes poorly focused image at night, I'd rather have a cleaner image even with less light as it's always possible to use desktop software on the PC to lighten up the image if there was something important you needed to see, ultimately this will give a better end result than the camera itself is capable of by image manipulation through software

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Yes, you are right about the post processing and even increasing brightness in the player, but I think the lost details are irrecoverable even adding brightness and this is the main reason to have a good video from the start. On this forum the expensive dash cams I think are sold only because of night mode quality.
- the GPS ideea is good but I think is much work for the developer than just the time zone. and also it is required the GPS which increase the price. If are some sites that offer sunrise calculation I think there is an algorithm which calculate this.
- if somewhere the recording is accepted as an accident evidence in the court it is better to have it original, not modified
Also I think the dash cam utility is to record when something goes wrong so in a normal use the user will not watch the videos.
I don't know if ever a developer will read this, but who knows, maybe somebody someday will send me a beer. :lol:

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Yes, you are right about the post processing and even increasing brightness in the player, but I think the lost details are irrecoverable even adding brightness and this is the main reason to have a good video from the start. On this forum the expensive dash cams I think are sold only because of night mode quality.
- the GPS ideea is good but I think is much work for the developer than just the time zone. and also it is required the GPS which increase the price
- if somewhere the recording is accepted as an accident evidence in the court it is better to have it original, not modified
Also I think the dash cam utility is to record when something goes wrong so in a normal use the user will not watch the videos.
I don't know if ever a developer will read this, but who knows, maybe somebody someday will send me a beer. :lol:

enjoy,
Mtz

I'm only interested in having GPS anyway so that's no issue, I agree with you that the more expensive cams have solds primarily on their night vision capability, I don't know that they have any advantage otherwise, my daytime video is as good as anyone elses, we're really only just starting to see better night video now though, any of the previous models that probably sold due to better night performance were primarily doing so by software manipulation rather than actual hardware performance, the more capable hardware has really only recently become available, I think you'll see a lot of better options going forward, once the software is fully sorted, it still has some way to go, I think we'll see that development this year but probably not until much later in the year

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

I think we'll see that development this year but probably not until much later in the year

I believe you because your location is also in Shenzen. So you can offer precious information to us and I hope you will keep posting here.
Thanks!

[hidden]Maybe someday you will start a topic named "Dash Cam Shenzen News" because I think almost all chinese electronics are made there. :mrgreen:[/hidden]

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

I think we'll see that development this year but probably not until much later in the year

I believe you because your location is also in Shenzen. So you can offer precious information to us and I hope you will keep posting here.
Thanks!

[hidden]Maybe someday you will start a topic named "Dash Cam Shenzen News" because I think almost all chinese electronics are made there. :mrgreen:[/hidden]

enjoy,
Mtz

My office in Shenzhen, I live in Australia and work remotely most of the year, I'm in Shenzhen 4 or 5 months of the year only (I have kids which restricts the travel a bit these days)

I don't know that I would start a topic as suggested as I can't account for a lot of what's going on, most of these are made there though, the vast majority are using public solutions though and often use very generic firmware as I'm sure you're probably already aware, I would say that 95% of suppliers are in a race to the bottom, constantly trying to outdo each other to deliver the product as cheaply as possible, personally I think that's detrimental to the market, it does a lot more harm than good, yes it's good for consumers if prices are lower, but not at the expense of the product quality

 

[DashCamMan]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Thanks for sharing the info jokiin. I figured that there would be many more A5 cameras coming out since the S1000 was released in 2012. I also came across the HDW001 from Eeyelog China that has the A5S30 chip. Unfortunately, I haven't seen it for sale any where.

And we are starting to see A7 cameras on the market now. Check out the specs of the Go Pro Hero 3 from this teardown site.

Ambarella A770 camera system-on-a-chip
Sony Exmor R IMX117 Sensor

So when you see new dash cams from China coming with the A2 processor (released in 2007!), it is a bit disappointing.

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Thanks for sharing the info jokiin. I figured that there would be many more A5 cameras coming out since the

So when you see new dash cams from China coming with the A2 processor (released in 2007!), it is a bit disappointing.

yes and no, I've just done an A2 processor cam but I did it because the solution is stable, firmware is well sorted etc, even this late in the cycle we still are tweaking the firmware (our current version is Jan 6th 2013) we're working on an A5 based product but realistically it will probably take another 6 months before the firmware is fully sorted, the A5 platform will bring us better night vision results (it really does no better for day) and some other convenience things like Wi-Fi that we can use for streaming to a mobile handset

I'm sure others will be out there with A5 solutions before us but too often they rush stuff to market and deliver a less than satisfactory product to the customer, not really where I want to be and if I miss some sales as a result then so be it

thanks for the teardown link on the GoPro, hadn't had a chance to look inside of one of these yet

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Yes, I think Wi-Fi will be the future and displays on cameras will be less. Without the display the camera will be smaller and I think the cost if no LCD monitor is smaller than the Wi-Fi option. But of course the wireless feature for the future no-name chinese cameras must be supported by some generic application because they cannot create a special application for every camera.
So if we can solve the problem with the display, the next step is smaller camera and then better night mode.
For me, the perfect dash cam is made using two components: the lens module and the recorder unit. The lens module must to be small but quality and stuck on the rearview mirror, connected with a cable to the recording module. And if GPS wanted, bought as separate module connected into a small hole inside the lens module.
So the perfect dash cam must to be invisible as possible and just forget about it and concentrate just to the driving. It will be always there, a silent eye.

jokiin, regarding your A5 work,if the A7 is already available, why not working directly on A7?

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

jokiin, regarding your A5 work,if the A7 is already available, why not working directly on A7?

enjoy,
Mtz

A good question from a consumers point of view, it's natural to think that a newer model must be better

A few reasons why not to, first of all we'd be throwing away about 9 months of development of the A5 platform, the A5 SDK that we've had to pay for won't work for the A7 platform so besides having to pay for another SDK the work that has been done so far doesn't necessarily translate onto the A7 platform anyway so we'd essentially have to start all over again, that's time, time costs money, companies like GoPro have plenty of money to do this and lead the way on development

Aside from all that the A7 doesn't necessarily offer us anything that we need right now in a dashcam product, there's some things about the A7 that are desirable for the sport cam market for sure but if the A5 does what we need then what's the point of changing platforms, there's no guarantee that we will eventually use the A7 solution anyway, there's a new Panasonic solution that looks promising also, time will tell, there's still a lot more innovation left to go in this category I feel

Please keep up the feedback, questions and suggestions though, it's all very valuable in my opinion

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

I think working one year on a firmware just to release the product is too much because the chipset producers are launching almost one chipset/year and you will be always behind.

Can you tell us the most important differences between A5 and A7?

Regarding feedback or ideas, I already wrote about them and if I can make a dash cam will be like this:
1. Very good low light but is the best value is when connected with the next
2. Really automatic nighttime brightness based on some sensor or firmware calculated timezone hour
3. Separate lens module, smallest as possible with a spherical rotation system like we see in some rear view dashcams
4. Optional GPS to offer good price. The GPS antenna to have some 1 meter cable to put it anywhere. I have one from a radar detector and it have also a magnet.
5. Almost the same model with or without Wi-Fi. But I recommend to use a good antenna because peope expect to watch from their home what is in the front of the car. As I already saw on some product they offer only 10m for Wi-Fi. How much can be a better antenna to not include it?
6. Firmware UPC like the Livue LB100. Also interesting on Livue is offering a different fps for parking mode which is just great idea
7. Firmware things like firmware update offered by the official site and some firmware smart options like the one of 6.)

As you can see I didn't wrote anything about the video quality because we already expect to be good with the A5 chipset.

The recorder unit to stay for example in the gloves box, stuck in the upper part with 3M tape. The power can be obtained from the gloves box light which is supposed to be permanent 12V for most cars. If the recorder will have a display, it can be opened down like a book to see the display and adjust the camera if needed.

But this type of camera is not good for the people which just want to put a suction cup anywhere on the windshield put the cable in the middle of the car and than in the lighter jack. Unfortunately they are the most, even if after buying their first easy-to-mount-camera will look after few months for a camera like me.

8. Also another option is to be thin, without display and to be mounted on the back of the rearview mirror. Wi-Fi will be instead of display. The shape will be something like an OuO to avoid the metal fixing arm of the mirror. On the left the lens module and some electronic and on the right the chipset. This option is good because is keeping away the chipset heat from the CMOS which can cause some blue ghosting on the image because of heat.

9. And the last thing: some contract with some rearview mirror producers (or cars) to offer some solutions when people buying a new car and that recording mirror to be included or optional.

As you can see everything in this post is based on the mirror, because I imagine my car with a free windshield. But of course for the truck drivers to offer a small mount.

enjoy,
Mtz

PS: I already like the Amberalla topic title. :lol:

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

I think working one year on a firmware just to release the product is too much because the chipset producers are launching almost one chipset/year and you will be always behind.

not really, A2 platform is still common and was released in 2007, it took a lot more than 1 year just to become a stable solution also, plenty of solutions released since then that are newer and not as good, newer isn't always automatically better, we have pretty much reached the limitation of the A2 solution though and some things we want to do like better night vision need the A5 to be able to support, A2 is just not powerful enough

A7 can do things like 4k res, 3D, probably great for sport cams but not something we need, there could be other developments but at this stage I don't see the need to start all over again when we wouldn't be using that functionality anyway, time will tell, maybe A7 will be the solution of choice for multi HD cam applications but they are still a quite small part of the market, possibly because so many multi cam solutions aren't great

Regarding feedback or ideas, I already wrote about them and if I can make a dash cam will be like this:
1. Very good low light but is the best value is when connected with the next
2. Really automatic nighttime brightness based on some sensor or firmware calculated timezone hour
3. Separate lens module, smallest as possible with a spherical rotation system like we see in some rear view dashcams
4. Optional GPS to offer good price. The GPS antenna to have some 1 meter cable to put it anywhere. I have one from a radar detector and it have also a magnet.
5. Almost the same model with or without Wi-Fi. But I recommend to use a good antenna because peope expect to watch from their home what is in the front of the car. As I already saw on some product they offer only 10m for Wi-Fi. How much can be a better antenna to not include it?
6. Firmware UPC like the Livue LB100. Also interesting on Livue is offering a different fps for parking mode which is just great idea
7. Firmware things like firmware update offered by the official site and some firmware smart options like the one of 6.)

Some of these things are achievable, we have some other ideas also, WiFi range is not something we are looking to extend as we don't see the application outside of the vehicle, not looking at doing DVR's without GPS, I know some do them as optional but not a market we're personally looking at, external GPS has benefits as they almost always work better, it's another cable to deal with and more to the installation than what we like though, an internal GPS that works as good as an external would be our preference

having it built into the mirror would be ideal, very hard to accommodate though as there is just so much variation, we do focus on smaller form factors though that can be mounted discretely behind the mirror, this makes more sense than some I see that are overly large although I do understand in some markets the customers like the large cameras that are more visible as they want others to be aware that the camera is there beause of insurance fraud, corruption issues etc, Russia in particular do a lot more of the larger cameras than other markets for this reason

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

WiFi range is not something we are looking to extend as we don't see the application outside of the vehicle

If you can offer almost the same price for a larger Wi-Fi area just because using a better (bigger) antenna you will not have anything to lose. When is about the Wi-Fi, the bigger distance wasn't a problem, but the small or the poor yes. Again, nothing to lose, just to win some more customers.
I am already thinking if is possible to hack a future Wi-Fi dash cam to see if is possible to increase the wireless signal. Because I am thinking a major factor is the antenna. If this is onlly because of Wi-Fi chipset or software limitations, I am lost. So I don't have the camera and already searching for how to increase the Wi-Fi coverage and I hope to find some antenna which I can mount inside the camera, not outside.

My idea about the external GPS was also because of the keeping a small lens module but if using antennas like in the smartphones I think it can fit in a small place.

enjoy,
Mtz

 

[cube]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Lots of insightful information and discussion going on in this thread. It's fascinating to read and learn from it. Hopefully jokiin and Mtz keep posting their insights as it can only benefit the members of this forum.

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

WiFi range is not something we are looking to extend as we don't see the application outside of the vehicle

If you can offer almost the same price for a larger Wi-Fi area just because using a better (bigger) antenna you will not have anything to lose. When is about the Wi-Fi, the bigger distance wasn't a problem, but the small or the poor yes. Again, nothing to lose, just to win some more customers.

enjoy,
Mtz

there's reasonable limits to WiFi for what we need, increasing the output could have an impact on other devices, we still need to gain necessary approvals, CE. EMC etc and if we go bumping up the output beyond reasonable levels that could be a problem, don't want to go having it impact things like radio reception, GPS signal etc, what people do afterwards though there's not a lot we could do about it

 

[jokiin]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Lots of insightful information and discussion going on in this thread. It's fascinating to read and learn from it. Hopefully jokiin and Mtz keep posting their insights as it can only benefit the members of this forum.

I'm happy to discuss with anyone, Mtz is very active on here and has lots of good feedback and ideas which is good, active forums benefit all, we're probably getting a bit off topic here but if someone wants to start a thread on this and maybe the admin wants to move any off topic posts there I'm happy to contribute to the discussion

 

[Mtz]

Re: 2013 Amberalla GS9000 Car Dash Camcorder

Lots of insightful information and discussion going on in this thread. It's fascinating to read and learn from it. Hopefully jokiin and Mtz keep posting their insights as it can only benefit the members of this forum.

Yeah, it is fantastic to have an insider in the forum, and when I saw Shenzen for his location I was happy and trying to keep him here. :lol: For this I want to thank you, jokiin. I am just an avalanche: just shake my interest and I will cover you with ideas (good, I hope).

Also I appreciate so much because if he is (?) involved in dash cams production he did not come here to just present his product, make some free advertising for him, but giving a lot of information which is not available from places like Shenzen. I have a bad experience with some google translated Chinese forums about smartphones, where almost all post contain only one word like "sofa" and a lot of "ah". Just try to search information on chinese forums and you will give up.
Maybe someday, somebody will ask what is the product he is selling and maybe he will reply. Or maybe he will tell about the real New 2013 Ambarella product.

here's reasonable limits to WiFi for what we need, increasing the output could have an impact on other devices, we still need to gain necessary approvals, CE. EMC etc and if we go bumping up the output beyond reasonable levels that could be a problem, don't want to go having it impact things like radio reception, GPS signal etc, what people do afterwards though there's not a lot we could do about it

Ouch, sorry, you got me and you are right. I think there are some standards and if a product have some wireless area less than 15 meters for example, it is not necessary to have some wi-fi certification. If this is true, can you tell us the official distance area? This distance is small because of a setting in the firmware? Do you think the user can increase that distance after buying the product? Even hacking a little the firmware with some value? If the area is because of firmware I think any hardware mod will not help too much so my antenna ideea is not good.
Can you give some advice regarding increasing the area of wi-fi signal?

we're probably getting a bit off topic here but if someone wants to start a thread on this and maybe the admin wants to move any off topic posts there I'm happy to contribute to the discussion

I think DCM must to split this topic, for the new one to give a new title and for the original GS9000 to change the title a little because is too "bombastic".
I knew I am offtopic but here I catched you and sorry for this. :roll:

DCM, maybe you will invent the new users class "Insider" of course if jokiin want to have such honorable and unique title. :mrgreen:

enjoy,
Mtz