Dash Cam Reliability

[Dashmellow]

You made a point about absolute reliability. Now you back peddle. It is what it is.



Except this statement is without merit. Which is why I addressed it in the manner I did.

The "DVR" are the brains / central unit. You cannot have a Camera without the DVR in a CCTV system. Simply buying a $200 camera for a CCTV system and using it as a comparison is nonsense. A CCTV "DVR" is not placed outside and subjected to the rigors (heat) that Dash Cam's face baking in the sun.

Second, it's not the individual camera itself overheating, but the "DVR" failing on a Dash Camera. Since Dash Cameras often integrate the DVR into the unit mounted on the windshield. The individual Cameras are "FINE". Just like in a CCTV system.

So basically you fail at two points:

1. Hermetically sealed individual cameras are not achieving the same levels of heat on an individual basis as a Dash Camera Mounted on a Hot Windshield in an enclosed vehicle.

2. Similar to a CCTV system, the individual cameras are not at fault. It's not like on a 3 Channel System, I am losing one the rear Camera and the Interior and Front work fine. What happens on a Dash Cam is the Main DVR (also subjected to the same extreme heat), causes the entire setup to eventually fail.

Zenfox T3 tried to mitigate this by having the interior camera disable when the Main Unit (Front + interior integrated into one body) overheated. With Front + Rear recording. However, the camera itself would overheat as disabling the Interior was a Temporary Stop Gap. At some point, the unit simply got to hot and everything ceased to work.

You are still at it! Unbelievable!

The DVR is merely the recording medium, and perhaps the "menu" but not the "brains". In a dash camera the equivalent is the memory card with the menu controlled locally. The SoC chip-sets within the cameras (the brains) are essentially the same in both dash cams and CCTV cams only with different firmware.

 

[HonestReview]

You are still at it! Unbelievable!

The DVR is merely the recording medium, and perhaps the "menu" but not the "brains". In a dash camera the equivalent is the memory card with the menu controlled locally. The SoC chip-sets within the cameras (the brains) are essentially the same in both dash cams and CCTV cams only with different firmware.

The SOC is what's overheating. Not the Memory Card. The SOC are the Brains. If it overheats, all dies. Now we're on same page.

On a CCTV system, the SOC is contained within the DVR unit that sits in a nice climate controlled building. For a Dash Camera, the whole system is integrated into a Main Camera and then Sub Cameras (Rear or Rear + Interior Camera). So the Main Camera Body is getting too hot, taking with it all sub cameras, when the SOC overheats.

Or to put in layman's Terms:

Cameras send Data feed to Main DVR on CCTV which processes and records to the SD Card.

On Dash Camera, All sub Cameras Send video feed to Main Body Unit. Where Main Body Houses the SOC. However, the Main Body isn't in a nice climate controlled area. It's mounted on the windshield with the other cameras also recording alongside them.

Image Below:

Trying to compare a SINGLE CAMERA on a CCTV system to a Single Camera on a Dash Camera is not a valid comparison.

 

[HonestReview]

Basically This:

 

[Dashmellow]

The SOC is what's overheating. Not the Memory Card. The SOC are the Brains. If it overheats, all dies. Now we're on same page.

On a CCTV system, the SOC is contained within the DVR unit that sits in a nice climate controlled building. For a Dash Camera, the whole system is integrated into a Main Camera and then Sub Cameras (Rear or Rear + Interior Camera). So the Main Camera Body is getting too hot, taking with it all sub cameras, when the SOC overheats.

CCTV System:

1. The Camera's themselves don't control everything. If one Camera dies, the others still work.
2. Hermetically sealed cameras still don't achieve the same thermal temps as a Dash Cam
3. DVR with SOC is climate controlled

Dash Camera

1. Everything is subjected to a hot, enclosed, vehicle with no air circulation
2. SOC is integrated into a Main Camera Body
3. Individual Cameras aren't at fault. Overheating is the Main Camera Body!

Again, Apples to Oranges Comparisons here.

You don't know what you are talking about. The A139 puts the multichannel chip into the base station rather than the camera module but that is not how CCTV cameras with DVRs function. That same chip that is in the A139 up until now would usually have been inside the camera is in many two channel dash cams. The SoC is inside each individual CCTV remote camera just the way it is inside most every dash camera. You are misinformed about how CCTV DVRs function. The DVR controls the chip-set but the "brains" are inside the camera housing. (see below)

Typically, the SoC is located on a circuit board inside the housing of the CCTV camera itself. Unlike dash cams the PCB is usually mounted on a robust heat sink plate which in turn is inside of or directly part of a cast metal housing.



Many CCTV cams use nearly identical chip-sets as dash cams that are merely configured differently. Many of these even use the same processor cores, but at different speeds and configurations.

Other chipmaker's might offer better examples than Ambarella for what I am describing but the following examples are fairly typical of the similarities between IP camera SoCs and the automotive SoCs. These chips are usually inside the cameras themselves but as multi-channel capabilities are a fairly new phenomenon, only now are we seeing remote lens dash cams.

 

[HonestReview]

They say you can't make someone understand, but you can draw them a picture!

You're missing the point! If the MAIN UNIT (MOUNTED ON WINDSHIELD) that is responsible for processing the video and saving to SD card OVERHEATS, the rest of the DASH CAMS fail, too. What happens in instances of Overheating is the MAIN UNIT is getting to hot. Not the individual.Dash Cameras!!

In this sense (CCTV and Dash Cameras), if an INDIVIDUAL camera fails in 2 channel or 3 channel, etc (you lose that given channel), but the remaining cameras continue to record.. But if the MAIN UNIT fails, you lose everything.

The DVR BOX that is responsible for recording ALL FEEDS on a CCTV is not exposed to hot weather! In a Dash Cam, the Cameras "Circled / Squared" all are responsible for processing the feeds and storing to an SD card. Unlike a CCTV setup, THESE UNITS are enclosed in a hot car, mounted to the windshield, and must WITHSTAND unfavorable conditions. Otherwise, they overheat, shut down, killing the entire Dash Cam System.

Comparing a single CCTV camera or CCTV System to Dash Cam System for Reliability Comparisons is NOT a good analogy. A CCTV system will never have to withstand the rigors that a HOT, ENCLOSED, car reaching 93C / 200F has to endure. And NOR is the Main Unit / DVR in a Camera Mounted to a HOT PIECE of glass with the sun beating on it all day.

I'm at a loss of how to explain this any further to you....

 

[Dashmellow]

Apparently, you just like to argue with people even when you have no clue what you are talking about.

The fact is that CCTV cams have the chip-sets (the brains) built into the individual cameras but they are built to a standard of durability that allows them to function in challenging environments far more than our dash cams.

Well, yes, if the DVR fails you lose all the cameras video feeds but that is a different subject than what you claimed earlier that the DVR is the "brains" of the individual cameras. It is not! - It is just a video recorder.

 

[HonestReview]

Apparently, you just like to argue with people even when you have no clue what you are talking about.

The fact is that CCTV cams have the chip-sets (the brains) built into the individual cameras but they are built to a standard of durability that allows them to function in challenging environments far more than our dash cams.

Well, yes, if the DVR fails you lose all the cameras video feeds but that is a different subject than what you claimed earlier that the DVR is the "brains" of the individual cameras. It is not! - It is just a video recorder.

THE DVR is the Recorder Processing ALL the video feeds. It is the BRAINS. If it fails, ALL ELSE FAILS. What better word do you want to call it? The Central Nervous System instead?

I've stated this 15 times over to you in 10 different ways.

The point remains:

I totally agree with the original list you posted earlier and the basic concepts you are talking about but my view is that instead of warnings about failures and errors we need to encourage dash cam manufacturers to strive to build dash cams that are less prone to failures in the first place! Again, more like CCTV camera reliability. They usually run 24/7 for months and years at a time in very challenging environments and very wide temperature extremes with zero failures.

The DVR is not mounted to a HOT PIECE of glass (windshield), subjected to sitting in a 93C (200F) car, that is enclosed with ZERO air circulation. You stated that CCTV systems can work months to years at a time problem free.

Your analogy of a CCTV = Dash Cam is a bogus comparison. The DVR Side (Brains / Nervous System / Whatever) in a Dash Cam doesn't have the luxury of being indoors. It's mounted to HOT WINDSHIELD in a HOT ENCLOSED car.

So until you overcome the issue of OVERHEATING and Other Issues related to the environment Dash Cams Face, RELIABILITY MAY ALWAYS pose some challenges CCTV systems DO NOT FACE. Meaning there are good Dash Cams (A129 Duo) that handle this very well. But upscaling to more channels (3 Channels) like the Zenfox T3 or A139 may face serious hurdles and bring about less reliable products.

Doesn't mean the Dash Cam Market is flawed and unreliable. Absolutely Not. Or Supposedly Dash Cam makers can "Learn from CCTV Makers", although CCTV Systems will never face these same challenges. Bit of a stretch! It means that Dash Cameras may have limitations until the technology overcoming these limitations improves.

 

[Dashmellow]

CCTV cameras do indeed get extremely hot when sitting in the hot sun. At the same time, the internal components give off quite a lot of heat yet because they are airtight and waterproof, there is no ventilation for the heat to escape like a dash cam which is designed with plenty of ventilation. You are deluding yourself to believe that CCTV cams don't get hot because they are not inside a car. They likely get even hotter internally than dash cams when siting for hours operating in direct sunlight. Again, they can do this because they are designed and built to a different standard of durability than dash cams and that has been my point.

With CCTV systems, the reliability of the individual cameras has nothing whatsoever to do with the reliability of the DVR or NVR. They are two different animals engaged in a common task.

This is getting ridiculous, man. In fact, it reached that state quite some time ago. As I keep saying, it's time to move on.

 

[HonestReview]

With CCTV systems, the reliability of the individual cameras has nothing whatsoever to do with the reliability of the DVR or NVR. They are two different animals engaged in a common task.

Now we agree. Conversation has reached its Apex. To state that Dash Camera Makers can "Learn from CCTV Makers" is a flawed and Erroneous Statement on your part. A common task, but with their own unique challenges.

And that Dash Cameras are all supposedly flawed and unreliable is another overstatement. Which is where this whole conversation started, but then lead to you asserting CCTV systems have done it right. Why can't Dash Cams? We've answered and covered this now, too (above).

I totally agree with the original list you posted earlier and the basic concepts you are talking about but my view is that instead of warnings about failures and errors we need to encourage dash cam manufacturers to strive to build dash cams that are less prone to failures in the first place! Again, more like CCTV camera reliability. They usually run 24/7 for months and years at a time in very challenging environments and very wide temperature extremes with zero failures.

 

[Dashmellow]

Now we agree. Conversation has reached its Apex. To state that Dash Camera Makers can "Learn from CCTV Makers" is a flawed and Erroneous Statement on your part. A common task, but with their own unique challenges.

And that Dash Cameras are all supposedly flawed and unreliable is another overstatement. Which is where this whole conversation started, but then lead to you asserting CCTV systems have done it right. Why can't Dash Cams? We've answered and covered this now, too (above).

This is nonsense! You make stuff up to support your c0ckamamie notions of how things work.

 

[TonyM]

I think the issue is accessibility. Even the main unit being moved away from windshield still has caveats. You need the unit within reach to control the cameras, make sure things are working, etc. So you can't necessarily hide the "brains" unless you want to randomly discover problems.

As most systems beep or use some sort of auditory sound. However, if it freezes, you hear nothing. This is why being able to the lights or a screen are important. While taking the main unit off the windshield may help reduce heat, the only logical place it can go is on the dashboard. That may or may not be enough to prevent the sun from baking the unit. I guess this theory would need tested. It would at least remove the main unit out of "Direct Sunlight", but the car itself still gets hot.

No, you do not need the main unit to be accessible, such as on the dashboard. Mine is tucked away under the liner in the boot (trunk). Because I trust that it is working, I do not need constant verification with a screen or beeps. That said, the DR has a remote button that performs a number of functions, including flashing slowly while the camera is recording, so it is not 100% hidden away.

I do check the files once in a while to make sure everything looks OK , as we all should with any dashcam.

 

[ElBerryKM13]

Speaking of reliability, maybe dash cam manufacturers should take a page from surveillance industry where most problems have been solved.
Power interruptions, harsh environment, image quality - all are basic things that even more expensive dash cams on the market seem to struggle with.
I've had five Hiks running more than five years 24/7 without a hitch...

I have been using my Hikvision cameras like you for over 5 years with almost flawless performance. I wish the dashcam were as reliable as these Hikvision.

 

[jokiin]

I have been using my Hikvision cameras like you for over 5 years with almost flawless performance. I wish the dashcam were as reliable as these Hikvision.

I've got 3 Hikvision cameras that run flawlessly, unfortunately I have 4 cameras in that system, one that's outside has a weird ghosting issue that comes and goes

 

[Dashmellow]

I've got 3 Hikvision cameras that run flawlessly, unfortunately I have 4 cameras in that system, one that's outside has a weird ghosting issue that comes and goes

Sounds like a cabling issue. It usually is. At least whenever I've had any issues with my CCTV system it turns out to be something with the cables, usually related in one way or another to the harsh elements where I live and it is almost always moisture related. Except for the time a woodpecker destroyed a cable right where it comes out that back of a camera. Anyway, a tiny amount of moisture in the wrong place can odd weird electrical problems like crosstalk and ghosting.

 

[kamkar]

My IP cameras all have the option to also record on a memory card in the camera, what they send away to the NVR dont really need any processing, but the NVR and the IP camera itself need to work together for higher things like face detection ASO, you cant well store a huge database of faces in the camera itself.
Other things the 2 also need to work together, but basic video, the NVR just save what the camera send to it, so all the IP camera dont do but a dashcam do is to save in the devise, but most cameras today also have that option.
Though i am not 100% sure how it works, if the in camera memory card just act as a buffer, or maybe it just save events if you have some kind of AI going.
My IP cameras also transmit 3 video streams, which can be tapped into in just about any way you like,,,,, so here you could argue 1 IP camera = 3 dashcams at least it generate 3 streams, though they are not all the same, often you have a full spec primary stream, and then you have #2 and #3 streams that could go to viewers online ( guests ) these are usually a lesser resolution.

 

[jokiin]

Sounds like a cabling issue. It usually is. At least whenever I've had any issues with my CCTV system it turns out to be something with the cables, usually related in one way or another to the harsh elements where I live and it is almost always moisture related. Except for the time a woodpecker destroyed a cable right where it comes out that back of a camera. Anyway, a tiny amount of moisture in the wrong place can odd weird electrical problems like crosstalk and ghosting.

think it's actually the camera on this one, the cables were checked and have been re-terminated several times by the installer already, next test is going to be swapping the cameras over and confirming the problem goes with the camera, he just hasn't had time to come back out and do that as yet

 

[kamkar]

turns out to be something with the cables

Yep we had to swap cable on my friends Hikcision PTZ earlier in the year, seem like cheap indoor cabling are not good outside.

 

[Dashmellow]

Yep we had to swap cable on my friends Hikcision PTZ earlier in the year, seem like cheap indoor cabling are not good outside.

Premium cables are the way to go, for sure.