SG9665GC High Contrast/Dynamic Range Flaw and other Discouragements

[Deleted member 46308]

Oh sorry, forgot you're australian:

˙sǝᴉʇᴉsuǝʇuᴉ ǝɥʇ ɟo %0ㄣ doʇ ǝɥʇ ʎɐʍɐ sʍoɹɥʇ ɥɔᴉɥʍ ǝlɐɔsǝɹ ɐ ʎllɐɔᴉsɐq sᴉ lǝʌǝl ǝɥ┴ ˙ǝɹnʇɔᴉd ɹǝɔᴉu ɐ sǝʌᴉƃ ϛㄣ˙Ɩ ɟo ɐɯɯɐƃ ɐ puɐ MO˥ ǝɥʇ uo ǝɹnsodxǝ ɹǝʇɹoɥs ǝɥʇ ʇnq ʎɹɹnlq suᴉɐɯǝɹ ǝɯɐɹɟ llnɟ ˙sɹǝʇlᴉɟ ǝɯos ɥʇᴉʍ ƃuᴉʇuǝɯᴉɹǝdxǝ ʇsnſ

 

[Dashmellow]

While the issues with blown out upper tonal range and high contrast have been much improved with the new AE tables and new exposure options I've continued to experience footage that is much too dark, similar to what is being reported by @Feitelijk and others using beta 22.

I've been trying a few things with mixed results but the imagery is still much too dark even in good bright lighting.

To start with, this following screen shot is with the menu set to "Full Frame" and I have the camera aimed with less hood in the FOV. This dark image was on a perfectly bright afternoon, as is the next image bellow.




Here, please note that I've now tilted the camera down to include more hood in the FOV. The camera is set to Center Cut and the EV value is set to zero. Seems a bit better but still too dark.


During my drive I stopped my vehicle and increased the EV setting to + 1/3. Still set to Center Cut. Better, but still dark for the conditions.


I was expecting to see a much more dramatic increase in exposure after increasing the EV setting but the image is still quite dark as this was a bright sunny day even with all the clouds. (about twenty minutes after the above image)


When I have the opportunity I will increase the EV setting another step and will report back with the results.

 

[Street Guardian USA]

Niko posted a good example of old vs new AE
(He applogized for having a dirty / glass pitted-chipped view though)

https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threa...-pre-release-access.16310/page-56#post-266856

Further IQ adjustments are in the works of course.

 

[Dashmellow]

Niko posted a good example of old vs new AE
(He applogized for having a dirty / glass pitted-chipped view though)

https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threa...-pre-release-access.16310/page-56#post-266856

Further IQ adjustments are in the works of course.

Yes, thanks, I saw that. I've been a little unceratin about which thread to post in at this point. These images are somewhat different as I am not driving directly into the sun and glare.

(You should see how pitted my windscreen is! Such is life living on a dirt road. Just the other day I used the steel wool, Rain-X method you posted about some time ago and it actually improved my visibility quite a bit even with the pits and pock marks.)

 

[Dashmellow]

BTW, I forgot to post this image from 7/18. (the ones above are from 7/16 and 7/19) Camera is set to Center Cut.
What I find interesting about this screen shot is that the exposure captured by the camera is a reasonably accurate rendition of what things actually looked like driving in the rain that day.
It seems to suggest and confirm that the AE tables are overcompensating to the point of underexposing as much as several full ⨍- stops when the brightness and contrast levels of the scene are high but that are providing more accurate exposure in this very flat lighting scenario.

 

[arcticfire]

While the issues with blown out upper tonal range and high contrast have been much improved with the new AE tables and new exposure options I've continued to experience footage that is much too dark, similar to what is being reported by @Feitelijk and others using beta 22.

I've been trying a few things with mixed results but the imagery is still much too dark even in good bright lighting.

To start with, this following screen shot is with the menu set to "Full Frame" and I have the camera aimed with less hood in the FOV. This dark image was on a perfectly bright afternoon, as is the next image bellow.
View attachment 24682

View attachment 24681

Here, please note that I've now tilted the camera down to include more hood in the FOV. The camera is set to Center Cut and the EV value is set to zero. Seems a bit better but still too dark.
View attachment 24683

During my drive I stopped my vehicle and increased the EV setting to + 1/3. Still set to Center Cut. Better, but still dark for the conditions.
View attachment 24684

I was expecting to see a much more dramatic increase in exposure after increasing the EV setting but the image is still quite dark as this was a bright sunny day even with all the clouds. (about twenty minutes after the above image)
View attachment 24680

When I have the opportunity I will increase the EV setting another step and will report back with the results.

Would it be possible to run one of your Mobius cams at the front at the same time so as to get a better visual of what the real lighting conditions are actually like?

 

[Dashmellow]

Would it be possible to run one of your Mobius cams at the front at the same time so as to get a better visual of what the real lighting conditions are actually like?

I've done that quite a long time ago. Check the first post of this thread. Of course, the firmware was different back then.

At the moment it would be inconvenient as the other Mobius cams are permanently installed elsewhere and I just do not have time right now anyway. Hang in there and I will see if I can do this for you at some point.

Actually, if I get the right weather conditions, the next thing I want to spend some time with is increasing the EV settings further on the GC to see what happens. I have more time for that sort of thing right now than moving and installing cameras.

 

[Dashmellow]

These were done this evening with the setting sun late in the day, so they don't necessarily address the high contrast exposure issues but they otherwise show a nice improvement by upping the EV settings by 2/3rds.

If enough other users experience similar results perhaps the default EV settings should get bumped?

Center Cut - EV - zero


Center Cut - EV - plus 2/3


Center Cut - EV - plus 2/3


Center Cut - EV - zero


On my way home I pulled over and changed the EV setting from zero to plus 2/3 rds. In bright conditions with trees on either side of the road if it does not cause any highlight and upper tonal range blow-outs it may be further improved by increasing the EV setting to plus one.

Center Cut - EV - zero


Center Cut - EV - plus 2/3

 

[jokiin]

I forgot to ask you previously @Dashmellow but can you also try with WDR off and on and see if you note any difference in these daytime shots

 

[Dashmellow]

I forgot to ask you previously @Dashmellow but can you also try with WDR off and on and see if you note any difference in these daytime shots

Sure.

Edit. The next thing I'd like to try is EV plus 1. After that I will try WDR - off.

 

[Dashmellow]

Would it be possible to run one of your Mobius cams at the front at the same time so as to get a better visual of what the real lighting conditions are actually like?

I forgot to ask you previously @Dashmellow but can you also try with WDR off and on and see if you note any difference in these daytime shots

Here you go on both counts.

SG9665GC - Center Cut - EV set to zero - WDR - Off


Mobius - "A" lens - default exposure settings. (WDR - On)

 

[Dashmellow]

SG9665GC - Center Cut - EV +1 - WDR - On


SG9665GC - Center Cut - EV +1 - WDR - On


SG9665GC - Center Cut - EV +1 - WDR - On
Apparently, in some situations, setting the EV to + 1 can be overkill as when I pulled into the local recycling center and had the sun directly on the windscreen. The highlight/contrast problems can also manifest with the increased exposure settings.

 

[Dashmellow]

Here are two more comparison examples from yesterday. So far, increasing the EV to +1 with the GC set to Center Cut offers the best results. (except in some conditions where brightness overwhelms the camera if EV is set higher)
Still needs more testing to see how much turning OFF WDR is effecting the exposure. (if at all)

SG9665GC - Center Cut - WDR - Off - EV +1


Mobius - "A" lens - default exposure settings. (WDR - On)

 

[Dashmellow]

I forgot to ask you previously @Dashmellow but can you also try with WDR off and on and see if you note any difference in these daytime shots

Although I've already posted some examples with WDR - off and WDR - on, I wanted to come up with something more definitive.

WDR-Off - EV +/- O - full frame


WDR-On - EV +/- O - full frame


Each time I doubled back to a starting point so I could capture the same exact image with different menu settings I had the opportunity to test WDR On or OFF in a high dynamic range situation where the highlights were very blown out. WDR appears to have a fairly minimal effect on the blown highlight issue but notice how much improved the shadow detail is with WDR set to ON, especially in the foliage on the right side of these two images.

You will notice the same effect on the first two images above as well.

WDR-Off - EV +/- O - full frame


WDR-On - EV +/- O - full frame

 

[thancam]

It's time reponse and making a change in light balance of chipset when camera goes from the dark area to light area.
@Dashmellow: if you don't tell you are are photograph, i will guess you are an enghlish teacher or an author. Everytime i read your post, i feel like my english class begin

 

[Dashmellow]

Yesterday, @jackkk, a new member asked me, in another thread, "Did you ever solve your exposure problems with the 2 SG9665GC-V2 that you have? I replied that, "The firmware got some major and very welcomed exposure fix-its but the answer is basically NO, the problems have not been resolved. I have been unable to find a suitable setting that works properly. Depending on the conditions one is driving through at any given time things looks fine one moment, become excessively dark the next and then suddenly you'll have the highlights blow out quite badly. I've been continuing my testing and plan to post results shortly in the appropriate thread."

Here is the post I promised above:

The recent firmware revisions and attempts to resolve the High Contrast/Dynamic Range flaws inherent in the SG9665GC have come a long way towards finally addressing the AE issues I first brought to @jokiin's attention some 16 months ago. Unfortunately, this camera and its firmware ares still highly problematic.

I have spent the last few weeks attempting to find a suitable set of menu settings that works reasonably well in most lighting situations and it is basically impossible. I have tried every possible combination of WDR-On/ WDR-Off, Center Cut, Low Cut, Full Frame and EV adjustments, etc.. I've also tried aiming the camera up or down to see if more sky and less of the dark blue hood of my vehicle in the FOV might make a difference but it has only minor effect.

The best results I've been able to achieve have been with either Full Cut or Center Cut - WDR-On - EV +/- 0. This is Beta 22.

Generally speaking, the new Beta 22 version of the firmware has a very dark bias, apparently in an attempt to dial back the camera's tendency to blow out the highlights and upper tonal range. This dark bias is evident in almost every example of sample footage I have seen posted by a wide range of members elsewhere on this site.

The problem I've been encountering is basically this:

Every time I think I have found a suitable exposure setting for this camera, everything falls apart as soon as the lighting changes. Living as I do in an environment with lots of trees and steep hillsides this is a real problem because the light is constantly changing every few minutes or seconds during a typical drive.

A dark bias in dash cam footage wouldn't in itself be a bad thing. We are not shooting feature length movies here. The problem here is that when one goes from a well balanced, well exposed scenario into a less well balanced one that is darker, the camera overcompensates and renders footage that is dramatically too dark, often to the point of being useless for good documentation. At the same time, in certain settings, the High Contrast/Dynamic Range upper range blowouts still manifest quite badly, although happily that particular issues has been much improved in the recent firmware updates.

Here are some screen shots from two days ago. The camera is set to Full Frame, WDR-On - EV -/+ 0.

The shots were all taken on a bright sunny afternoon during the course of about twenty four minutes of driving.

Here I am driving in and out of the tree canopy and so the blown out upper range you are seeing below occurs during the footage every few moments for much of this part of the drive.
Unlike driving though an occasional tunnel or under a bridge, driving under forested tree canopies and along steep hillsides makes the blow-outs a more serious, constant problem rather than just an occasional annoyance.


Anyway, here about one minute later everything is looking pretty good, although perhaps a little on the dark end of a typically well exposed image.


Here, another minute later things are still looking pretty good.


Here it is now about 15 minutes since the above image and everything still looks good, although the sky is rather blown out. (personally, if the camera records the road in front of me properly I don't particularly care if the sky is not exposed correctly)


Two minutes later. Absurdly dark unusable footage.


Here about 4 minutes or so later I encounter some blown-out highlights which often last long enough and can be severe enough to obscure the details of an entire oncoming vehicle.


Then, only 19 seconds after the above image using the same camera settings I started out with on this journey the video is so dark that it is essentially unusable too.


Then, only 4 seconds later the image returns to a reasonable exposure. Yeah, the sky and highlights are all blown out but the camera did a good job of capturing the roadway in front of me and that is what we want to see.


Obviously, the exposure problems inherent in the SG9665GC are still a long way from being resolved, especially for anyone who regularly has to drive under variable lighting and contrast scenarios. And unless these issues can indeed be fixed, the SG9665GC is also not a wise choice if you happen to drive a dark colored vehicle.

 

[Dashmellow]

In my very first post to this thread I spoke of how the severe exposure problems, especially blown-out bright areas and transitions in and out of bright scenes we see with the SG9665GC do not occur to such a degree with any other of the numerous dash cams I've owned and I provided many simultaneously captured photographic examples. I would recommend anyone coming to this thread for the first time to go back to the beginning and have a look.

Recently, I've been testing out the newly released Mobius 2 camera. While the Mobius 2 needs a tremendous amount of firmware development going forward and has certain other flaws that will need to be resolved before it is quite ready for prime time I have been so impressed with the camera's ability to properly handle wide dynamic range scenarios that I want to show the difference between this new camera and the SG9665GC because it so clearly illustrates the GC's major flaw I have been trying to address for these long sixteen months.

Yesterday, I was simply out testing the new Mobius and happened to have it mounted near my SG9665GC. My intention was not to compare the two cameras but when I saw yesterday's footage and how it did compare with the identical footage from the recent beta 22 firmware from the GC my jaw dropped.

As far as dynamic range performance is concerned, even this flawed freshman firmware release from the Mobius 2 is everything the two year old SG9665GC with its numerous firmware fix-its is not.

SG9665GC


Mobius 2 - note the overall superb tonal range along with good detail on the car compared with the GC. (30 fps high data rate)


I have focused much attention on the blown-out upper tonal range issue with the SG9665GC but the other side of the coin here is the completely blocked up shadow detail. This is what dynamic range is all about.
Notice that along with the blown-out upper tonal range in the sky and on the road you cannot even tell that there is a mailbox hidden in the shadows on the left side of the road. This is still Beta 22, of course.


Mobius 2 This is the way a dash cam "should" handle a challenging wide dynamic range lighting scenario.

 

[Treble318]

In my very first post to this thread I spoke of how the severe exposure problems, especially blown-out bright areas and transitions in and out of bright scenes we see with the SG9665GC do not occur to such a degree with any other of the numerous dash cams I've owned and I provided many simultaneously captured photographic examples. I would recommend anyone coming to this thread for the first time to go back to the beginning and have a look.

Recently, I've been testing out the newly released Mobius 2 camera. While the Mobius 2 needs a tremendous amount of firmware development going forward and has certain other flaws that will need to be resolved before it is quite ready for prime time I have been so impressed with the camera's ability to properly handle wide dynamic range scenarios that I want to show the difference between this new camera and the SG9665GC because it so clearly illustrates the flaw GC's major flaw I have been trying to address for these long sixteen months.

Yesterday, I was simply out testing the new Mobius and happened to have it mounted near my SG9665GC. My intention was not to compare the two cameras but when I saw yesterday's footage and how it did compare with the identical footage from the recent beta 22 firmware from the GC my jaw dropped.

As far as dynamic range performance is concerned, even this flawed freshman firmware release from the Mobius 2 is everything the two year old SG9665GC with its numerous firmware fix-its is not.

SG9665GC
View attachment 25055

Mobius 2 - note the overall superb tonal range along with good detail on the car compared with the GC. (30 fps high data rate)
View attachment 25058

I have focused much attention on the blown-out upper tonal range issue with the SG9665GC but the other side of the coin here is the completely blocked up shadow detail. This is what dynamic range is all about.
Notice that along with the blown-out upper tonal range in the sky and on the road you cannot even tell that there is a mailbox hidden in the shadows on the left side of the road. This is still Beta 22, of course.
View attachment 25056

Mobius 2 This is the way a dash cam "should" handle a challenging wide dynamic range lighting scenario.
View attachment 25057

I have to thank jackkk for pointing me towards this thread as I am waiting for a replacement for the SGZC12SG as the firmware was outdated and could not be flashed by users. Thanks for the detailed explanation of the exposure issue with SG9665GC which I am experiencing with SGZC12SG as well. I just recently got the A119 (1440p 30fps) from Viofo today and already it seems to capture license plates better in California without the exaggerated brightness experienced so far. Driving on the freeway was so bright I couldn't make out the lines on the ground. Footage on the opened thread for reference if curious at 5:15:

https://dashcamtalk.com/forum/threads/new-to-sgzc12sg-some-questions-about-brightness.20719/

Currently, I am just working on daytime comparisons. I have also sparked interest at the Ddpai M6 Plus because of serveral reviews about the best picture quality dash cam for day and night but not too excited about the battery in the unit ( gets hot in Cali), 1440p at 25fps, and unpolished UI software for the phone to set the dash cam.

My hope is the new replacement from Pier28 will fix the exposure issue but from my limited comparison from today's day test with the a119 already shows better detail in pictures.

 

[lacibaci]

I see the same exposure problems with mini 0903 (same processor and sensor)

 

[wozzzzza]

hey @Dashmellow this seem like it might be the only camera suitable for your needs, I reckon there would be a suction mount available to mount this to your window. critique this one will you and get back to us and see if it meets your needs. if it does I'm sure jokiin would make a remote camera model for you at around $150,000.
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PMWF55/